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My Take on the Israel and Palestine Conundrum

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posted on May, 17 2013 @ 07:51 PM
The vast majority of laymen don't give a damn about theology, and society doesn't admit the relevance of religious theology into political discourse.

I get some of you are theology buffs, and the logic from the Christian perspective which "justifies" Israel's existence might be interesting - as an academic past time - but in real life, it doesn't matter. Nobody cares about it.

What matters at base is the anthropological relevance of Israel to the Jewish people. It's the Jewish peoples connection at a cultural, ethnic and religious level, which mandates Israel's right to exist. Not what religion has to say. Religions will say what religions will say. Islam will carry on their internal myth-telling of the Jews being evil and the children of apes and pigs, and Orthodox Jews will continue on in their narrative of the world plotting to take away Israel's existence. Both agree on the same situation: an apocalyptic face-off. But no rational person wants to see that happen. Rational people ignore the stories the fundamentalists tell each other, and pay attention to the real anthropologically relevant facts which pertain to both sides.

Jews have the long-term connection to Israel (aka Palestine, aka Judea), and based on this strong historical, spiritually felt and communally fostered, connection, the Jews are entitled to settle themselves as a nation in today's Judea.

At the same time, in the "short-term", that is, the last few hundred years, Arabs have been the predominant ethnic category living in Palestine. When the Zionists had designs to take the land back, through land purchases, Arabs were the main owners of the land. I'm sure, as owners, as people who had established their own, albeit, less culturally preeminent, and emotionally charged, connection to the land, they feel that the Jewish inroad into Palestine feels like they don't deserve to be there.

So were dealing with two people approaching this question from two different perspectives - both relevant and deserving consideration. The two state solution seeks to reconcile this issue so that both sides, Jews and Palestinian Arabs, can live together as equals.

This was, by the way, the basic intentions of the 1947 UN special commission to Palestine. But unfortunately, it didn't work out, mainly because the Arabs flat out refused to acknowledge any Jewish connection to Palestine, and this has been reflected in the outright bizarre denials from the Waqf (religious authorities) supported by the PA, that the ancient Jewish temple - despite the existence of Herodian architecture and sundry archeological finds - never existed. When one side is going this far to deny the historical relevance of Jews to Palestine - a patently inane claim - while still somehow maintaining the religious view that Jews are the sons of "pigs and apes" - this situation turns out to be far more intractable than initially expected. And the Bible calls the Jews stiff necked? I'm sorry, the Arabs have far outdone them. They don't want any Jewish state of any size in their midst, and there's simply no negotiating with them.

So this brings us to the status quo. What to do with Israel and Palestine. The Israelis - who also refuse to succumb to Arab resistance - have decided to builds houses in Judea and Samaria, aka as the Westbank. Nowadays, as much as 400,000 Jews are living in the Palestinian territory, with no end in sight.

The Palestinians, conversely, mostly split between the Islamist Hamas and the secular PA, have done very little to make the Israelis feel safe with actual negotiations with them. This policy of "concession without promises", without renouncing certain views, without insuring the Israelis that they have nothing to fear, has done nothing but encourage the policies taken by the Israeli government.

So the world, the bystanders, have to ask themselves a question. What is fair? What is important and relevant? In terms of fairness, I find it hard to not see that the Arabs have not done their part to make Israel feel that they shouldn't worry that their concessions, as earlier concessions have indicated, will not be used as opportunities towards an ulterior policy of "destruction by stages".

If what matters to you is not the basic morality we expect as individuals - and so expect a similar policy as nations - but rather, the primacy of self interest and self interest alone, than political realists will balk at the idea that we should sacrifice our national interests for the sake of the Jews. This school of thought has plenty of it's proponents, even though, since this idea is so blunt, it can't be stated so literally, but must be hidden under a cover of political correctness i.e. emphasizing some evil of the Israelis in excess of what fairness justifies.

This is the status quo as I see it.

posted on May, 17 2013 @ 08:25 PM
".......It's the Jewish peoples connection at a cultural, ethnic and religious level, which mandates Israel's right to exist. Not what religion has to say...."

Its the connection at a religious level but not what religion has to say???? Did you mean to say that??

First that doesn't make sense. Second your interpretation of religion or God or whatever matters nothing from a spiritual perspective.

Your comment is as irrelevant as those you accuse of irrelevance. Especially with an obnoxious interpretation of existence...that being man is the most superior being and our plane of existence is the only one and certainly the superior one.

That is a very arrogant attitude from someone lambasting 'religion' as an overbearing attitude.

posted on May, 17 2013 @ 08:41 PM
reply to post by MadMax7

Its the connection at a religious level but not what religion has to say???? Did you mean to say that??

Yes. You got it! The connection shared between Jews is cultural (shared customs), ethnic (common lingua franca, i.e. Hebrew, Yiddish, Ladino, etc) and religious (Judaism). This is the relevant part.

What, i.e, the actual content of what a religion preaches with regard to a lands importance to a people, is irrelevant.

To make this more clear for you: For Jews, the connection at a religious level matters, the Biblical, Talmudic and Rabbinic traditions that say Israel is just for the Jews, "from the Euphrates to the Sea", is irrelevant, for obvious reasons. For Arabs, the connection to their ancestral lands is what matters, and certainly not what Islam has to say about "dar al Islam" and "dar Al harb". Which necessarily excludes all non-Muslims from the world, placing them in irreversible opposition to the truth of Islam.

These two perspectives obviously lead us to a stalemate, therefore, logically, we must approach this matter from a common perspective, one which addresses the claims of both sides without the absolutist claims of their individual religions.

I won't hurt your brain further by asking you to contemplate why coming to a common perspective is important. Any thinking person understands that if were going to avoid killing each other, we have to come to a common view in the manifold spheres of life. Thus, in any political discourse, only humanistic considerations are regarded as important, whereas jingoistic claims of pure-blood nationalism, exclusivist claims made by individual religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, in particular), and any other superficial and unnecessary division, is ignored, and deemed dangerous.

posted on May, 17 2013 @ 09:08 PM
reply to post by Astrocyte

First of all, I would like to welcome you Back DontReally, Banning is a Bummer.

Ok, Lots of Pretty words, when, straight Forward will get the Job done.

Israel is Stealing Palestine Land, and Murdering Anyone in their Way , in the Process.

How they claim to be Religeous, and Follow this Path, is something only Ardent Supporters can Gloss over.

People with Critical Thought, Call it Murder, and Imperialism.
edit on 17-5-2013 by Tw0Sides because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 18 2013 @ 05:58 AM
reply to post by Astrocyte

So in a nutshell your saying that because some Jews lived on some land thousands of years ago, it's ok for some other Jews to turn up now and demand to be given land back which is inhabited by somebody else for a very long time.

So tell me, if somebody knocked on your door today and stated that their ancestors lived on the same land two thousand years ago and demanded that you collect your things and shift out ..... you'd be ok with that ?
edit on 18-5-2013 by bigyin because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 18 2013 @ 02:30 PM
reply to post by bigyin

Historically, for the last 2000 or so years since the collapse of Jewish sovereignty in that region, Palestine has had a continuous, albeit minority, Jewish population.

But that to me isn't the issue. The moral issue, as framed by the Zionists and as argued by those who support a two state solution, is reparation. There was something morally wrong about ousting the Jews from Judea 2000 years ago. But that was the Romans you will say! Ok. What about the 1700 years after the collapse of the empire? There were many attempts in between that time, where Jews sought to reestablish themselves as a political entity in Palestine. But again, imperial interests, first, the Byzantines, then the Abbasids, and down through history, it had been a battle for the spoils between Christians and Muslims. Realistically, however, neither of these peoples were organically rooted in that land. Arab culture emanated from the Arab peninsula, and then spread across the entire Middle East and North Africa. Christian culture, even though it sprung up in the Levant, became culturally fertilized by Europe.

The Jews suffered mistreatment under both Christian and Muslims, the former were meaner than the latter, but both made sure that the Jews understood their place.

Till this very day, the word "neurotic" and "Jew" goes hand in hand. Just think about that. Why are Jews neurotic, weak willed? How on earth did the Nazis so effectively round them all up, without them fighting back? This is evolutionary theory at work. This is the brain being sculpted by experiences, and these experiences - coded as genes - being inherited by future Jews. Jews are neurotic, anxious people, because Christian and Muslim civilization made them so. The Jewish urge towards self determination is a healthy one. The Arabs are not guiltless, as if they're civilization hadn't done their part inuring generations of Sephardic Jews to a life of second class living, being denied any sense of self worth because the entire world (in which they lived) belonged to Islam and Islam alone.
edit on 18-5-2013 by Astrocyte because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 18 2013 @ 03:44 PM
reply to post by Astrocyte

Ok stop with the silly stories, you'll have us all greetin.

Try answering my question instead.

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