Real-Life Superpowers Under A Bush Regime

Originally posted by Esoterica
Newton oberved a repeatable phenomena. If ESP is not repeatable or controllable, what good is it anyway?

The assumption that non-repeatable phenomena do not occur is just that: an assumption.

Most spiritual phenomena I have observed are subject to so many unknown variables that repeating them is virtually impossible to accomplish in any meaningful way.

It is fine for Science to confine itself to studying phenomena that can be repeated, however, it is fallacy to assume that by doing so, scientists have somehow managed to prove that non-repeatable phenomena do not occur.

This is one of the consequences of embracing Science as a religion, instead of as a tool for studying physical phenomena.



[edit on 11/5/2004 by Majic]

Originally posted by Cassie Clay
I dunno, it's served to be quite fun on a number of occasions.

I could give you a long list just on my own experiences alone, but you can just shoot back that I'm lying about them, or that they are all coincidences. However, it has been my experience that the people who get the most hostile & closeminded on these topics are the ones who are secretly scared of these things--there is no other reason for the level of hostility. And there is no other reason to jump on a thread with nothing better to say than an insult to the thread itself. It frankly shows insecurity.

You want to Deny Ignorance by showing people that ESP exists. I want to Deny Ignorance by questionign such claims. I see no problem here.

Anyway, why would I be afraid of ESP? I think it would be incredible if it existed. I am not being hostile- I am being inquisitive. If you see someone questioning your beliefs as being hostile, you need to reconsider those beliefs yourself.

Do the paranormal boards a favor & post on a thread if you have something on-topic & of value to the conversation. Or start your own thread on why you feel the way you do about paranormal topics, and start a productive discussion there.

So those making the claims can easily ignore them, and therefore not answer the question, which is why one would make such a thread in the first place.

Yeah, I was gonna post a list of all the major psychic/telekinetic experiences I've had--it's a long list, and I absolutely guarantee you would react with complete flipped-out hostility & derision. This happened on another thread on this board and the "skeptic" got so incensed & abusive he was banned from ATS. But I'm sure you wouldn't go that far. Nevertheless, you've hijacked this thread long enough. If you have a on-topic response, great; if not, I'll use the "ignore" button and you can just keep on posting.

If you've got the evidence, post it. Your failure to do so seems quite telling, though. Just go ahead, label me a rabid skeptic, so you can choose to ignore everything I say. I, on the other hand, am open to anything you're willing to give me.

Go ahead, put me on your ignore list, and keep telling yourself it's not because I ask questions you don't like.

As for my post being off-topic, that's just silly. I mean, re-read your opening post. The only repsonse you seem to be willing to accept are "Yeah, I agree".

So, Cassie Clay, I challenge you this- Post the relevent information that you claim exists, and allow me to look over it and voice my opinions. If you choose not to, then you have no right to call me close-minded. If you'll read what's been posted, I'm the one asking for information, you're the one asking for blind belief.

Majic-
That post was made in response to statement about Newton, comparing his work to ESP study. I simply pointed out how the two are wholly dissimiliar, as you have agreed.

I made to claim that non-repeatable phenomena do not exist. I made the claim that if they are non-repeatable, then there is a good reason not to believe in them. If all I have to go on is your word, well sorry, but that ain't enough.

P.S.- Anyonme who wishes to label be a hostile skeptic needs to take a gander at this thread.

[edit on 11-6-2004 by Esoterica]

Originally posted by theRiverGoddess
I think alot of ~TRULY TALENTED~ in the phychic phenom are allready pretty quiet about the reality of all they can accomplish.
Learning from telling close friends that then want them to PROVE themselves, and then friends being utterly terrified by seeing the outcome of said PROOFS......the adept learns fast not to divulge to much. All people need companionship and friends, and sometimes informing others will cause them to distance themselves from the closeness.

I agree with Cassy saying it COULD become a political ploy in some sense, and shutting your mouth would be wise.....unless you DESIRE to become some kind of 'governmental batterie' locked away from any kind of a NORMAL life.

It is true that a person's friends could take it that way; however, they could also see this adept as not only a good friend but also an asset to their lives. I have used my skills in divination for my friends plenty of times and, it is true, they were a bit freaked out but they saw that it was a useful tallent that I was willing to share with them.

I agree with you about the government thing. It could be possible for the government to use adepts for their own purposes. I wouldn't mind taking them up on their offer if they presented it to me; not because I would like to help them but because I would like to see the extent of their studies in the paranormal.

Originally posted by Majic
It is fine for Science to confine itself to studying phenomena that can be repeated, however, it is fallacy to assume that by doing so, scientists have somehow managed to prove that non-repeatable phenomena do not occur.

This is one of the consequences of embracing Science as a religion, instead of as a tool for studying physical phenomena.

Excellent point Majic/Anibal.

Magick cannot be studied, tested or duplicated through traditional scientific means, as magick/telekinesis and psychic phenomenon in general operate off of an entirely different set of principles than the physical spectrum of energies.

Esoterica,

My main problem with your first post was that it was an off-topic, insulting one-liner that had no productive value whatsoever. It was a trollish statement designed not to engage in debate over the topic but to disparage another person's beliefs. And such an act demonstrates your character & level of insecurity.

If you want to debate whether ESP and whatnot exists, start your own thread--don't degrade yourself by hijacking another person's thread & p**sing on their beliefs.

With all due respect, you are just one minute, fleeting speck on the radar of my life--just one poster out of thousands--and I feel no compelling need to further justify my beliefs to you. While you are doing your little victory dance that you somehow "proved something" on this board by me refusing to further debate you--I will be secure in the knowledge that I have experienced & witnessed things that eclipse your miniscule little "victories" on ATS a million times over.

And frankly, even if I did convince people like yourself and the rest of the world that things like telekinesis & ESP existed--what the hell do I really get out of it? The whole beauty of such extra-sensory gifts is that the majority of the populace doesn't believe in them so you can do pretty much what you want--not that I do that of course. But the legitimacy and acceptance of the existence of the paranormal will only lead to regulating & suppressing it. Screw that.

So what do I get by putting out for everyone to see my deepest secrets? Convincing you, Poster One Out Of Thousands? Forget it. Do your little victory dance. I hope it feeds you.

(clicks "Ignore')

Um....Good Riddance? I know he/she is gonna unignore me for a moment just to read how I replied

ESP is real and just because you do not know how to open up your inner mind to experience it doesn't mean others haven't. If it were so easy everyone would be doing it. That doesn't make it fake though. I sincerely can tell you, ESP is real.

Originally posted by Raphael
ESP is real and just because you do not know how to open up your inner mind to experience it doesn't mean others haven't. If it were so easy everyone would be doing it. That doesn't make it fake though. I sincerely can tell you, ESP is real.

And I can sincerely tell you that I can shoot fireballs out of my butt. Doesn't mean you should believe me.

I don't care that Cassie Clay can't prove her beliefs to me. What got me upset is that she claimes I was close-minded when she asked for blind belief, and she said I was a rabid skeptic when all I asked for was the same information that mad here believe in ESP. I mean, am I the only one who sees how retarded that is?

If you want to believe in ESP, and when I aks you to prove it say "I can't", that's perfectly alright. But say you have proof, and refuse to share it, then you're gonna have problems.


[edit on 11-6-2004 by Esoterica]

It is not really something that is provable. Many people have said they have been visited by an Angel. Many experiences are similar and document experiences that cannot be ignored as having some related factual value. To someone else who has experienced an Angel visitation they would not need proof becuase they have experienced it and can tell by someone elses experience if it is genuine. It's something that is not really provable because most often it is not something you can do it at will. In most cases you will have a hard time proving it to people who have never experienced it but that does not make it fake. ESP works this way..

Whoever it was that called you closed minded is right in the literal term. I would add you ARE closed minded because you have never even tried hard enough to open yourself up spiritually or you have not been able to achieve opening your mind to where you can tap into ESP. I have had an experience that is exactly like the experience of Ezekiel in the bible. Event for event explained is EXACTLY the same experience I had. Therefore, you do not have to believe in ESP, the bible, or even God, but I can tell you all three are factually true in our existence.

[edit on 6-11-2004 by Raphael]

Originally posted by Raphael
Whoever it was that called you closed minded is right in the literal term.

Incorrect. I am completely open to the possibility that ESP exists. I asked for the proof that other members claim to have, and they refused to provide it. How does that make me close-minded? Because I don't trust someone who doesn't fulfuill a simple, easy request?

I would add you ARE closed minded because you have never even tried hard enough to open yourself up spiritually or you have not been able to achieve opening your mind to where you can tap into ESP.

And how do you know this to be the case? ESP?

I have had an experience that is exactly like the experience of Ezekiel in the bible. Event for event explained is EXACTLY the same experience I had. Therefore, you do not have to believe in ESP, the bible, or even God, but I can tell you all three are factually true in our existence.

Facts are in the eye of the beholder. So far, nobody has provided me with these facts.

See, this is what pisses me off. everyone is making vast assumptions about me because I asked a simple question. If this evidence is so vast and irrefutable, then nobody should have any problem providing me with it. Everyone's refusal to do so tell me that something ain't right with what you're saying. Not to mention all the logical fallacies getting whored around here.

I've encountered ESP, FACT. There's your proof.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
I've encountered ESP, FACT. There's your proof.

Proof for you, maybe. Not proof for me. Eyewtiness testimony has been proven time and time again to be highly suspect in courts of law. Of course, we still trust it legally, but I've seen enough of a person seeing a completely normal occurence and claiming it to be supernatural that I don't take anything someone says at face value.

But, what I will not argue, is your belief. You saw what you beilived to be ESP, and that was good enough for you. Since it's impossible for me experience the same thign you did (unless you got a time machine), I can only agree to disagree. BUT, in Cassie's case, she claimed to have oodles of evidence, and even said she could provide it for me. She simply chose not to. In that case, I have to ask why she won't provide it. And the simplest choices are that she doesn't have it, or she doesn't trust it, or she's nuts and actually believes her opinion about me. Yep, hardcore skeptic here, asking to see the same evidence that lets you believe in ESP

I've got some great waterfront property in Arizona, real cheap too. Just trust me, and u2u me your credit card information if you're interested


EDIT: So, in other words, if Cassie had never claimed to have irrefutable proof and then refused to provide it, you would not have to deal with me. Blame her, not me



[edit on 11-6-2004 by Esoterica]

I don't understand why you are so concerned then Esoterica. You made it plainly known that you do not trust anyone else's experience on the issue. So what could Cassie possibly say that would make you feel different? The basic assumption of this thread is that ESP does, in fact, exist. Yet, you would not believe it does exist because you have never experienced it. That's enough for a one-liner or one post, we know what you are trying to say.

But to troll around this thread, calling people crazy is just irresponsible, unkind, and you are frankly coming off as a troll.

If you have not experienced ESP, that is your issue, not ours, and there is nothing we can say to make you feel different. So drop it.

[edit on 6-11-2004 by Jamuhn]

I feel someone needs to step in.

This thread is getting nowhere (you don't have to be a moderator to see that). I think we should respect Esoterica's state of mind. Esoterica has not seen enough personal proof in order to believe in ESP. Regardless of if he or she is closeminded, openminded, off-topic, on-topic, or just simply a highly sceptical person we should respect his or her right to be that way. All of these posts have done is raise the blood pressure and ignorance displayed on this particular thread. These posts are starting to feel like a childhood argument.

Originally posted by daniel191159
I feel someone needs to step in.

This thread is getting nowhere (you don't have to be a moderator to see that). I think we should respect Esoterica's state of mind. Esoterica has not seen enough personal proof in order to believe in ESP. Regardless of if he or she is closeminded, openminded, off-topic, on-topic, or just simply a highly sceptical person we should respect his or her right to be that way. All of these posts have done is raise the blood pressure and ignorance displayed on this particular thread. These posts are starting to feel like a childhood argument.

You know what, I agree.

I'm getting out of this thread. Discuss as you wish.

Originally posted by daniel191159

This thread is getting nowhere

I agree. I move to stick to the topic of the thread. I have nothing further to say about whether or not ESP exists. I have made a personal decision that trying to provide proof to skeptics is a profound waste of my time with no rewards. Though I applaud anybody who wants to open another thread on the paranormal board to discuss that particular topic.

As for the topic of this thread--I am more convinced than ever before that there is no value in people possessing ESP to "come out of the closet." I think sharing information with close groups of like-minded individuals is fine. I think providing public information about ESP without getting too deep about one's personal experiences is fine. But I think there needs to be a certain amount of discretion--maybe a little bit more under the current administration than others, but no matter who is in office.

And by sharing information I don't mean things like talking about a bout of deja vu or an out-of-body-experience. I believe that there are "bigger" things one can talk of. For example: if you have had a telekinetic experience, I wouldn't broadcast it. If you have an extra-sensory experience that you feel in your heart would really creep out & scare other people--even those who don't believe you--I wouldn't talk about it. If you have had specific prophecies about major world events come true--personally, I don't feel it is a good idea to spread it around (especially if you have proof in the form of time-stamped posts, etc.).

When going public, these are the following scenarios you face:
1) Most will scoff & deride you
2) A few will scoff & deride you & be so secretly disturbed by your claims that they will seek the destruction of either your reputation or your Self.
3) A few will believe you & think you're an agent of the Devil & might try to hurt you.
4) A few will believe you, be scared of you, and not want to be near you.
5) A few will believe you & will be okay with it.
6) If the evidence is compelling enough (videotaped, time-stamped prophecies on message boards, etc.) I do think some aspect of the govt will get involved.

There is a law of Wicca or witches (I believe it was Gardiner who wrote it?) that basically states, never admit you practice witchcraft to the outsider; and also try to make public claims that witchcraft & magic doesn't exist. Now, obviously such a law does put a monkeywrench in the idea of "deny ignorance." But I understand the sentiment.

A lot of people believe that phenomena occur that cannot be explained by Science within its current constraints.

My point is that a lack of scientific explanation does not logically prove that something does not exist, merely that it is not currently explained by Science.

The error is in believing that unexplained phenomena must therefore not exist. This is actually a pretty fundamental logical fallacy on several counts.

What I do know is true is that many people describe phenomena that cannot be explained by Science in its current state. I happen to be one of them.

We can make assumptions about these phenomena, that they are hallucinations, delusions, mirages or whatever, but they are nonetheless assumptions.

But here's the rub: We are real, and our minds are real. Thus whatever we're thinking is also real, even if it is only real within our minds. To deny that is to deny that we have minds, which would be silly.

The real unanswered question is why we perceive things as existing that do not directly correlate to input from the "big five" senses. Maybe it's some quirk of the mind, maybe it's due to other as yet undefined modes of perception.

The truth is that we don't know. But to dismiss what we don't know as nonexistent is folly on a classic scale.

Now, what was the topic again? Ah yes.

I'm not sure I follow all of Cassie's thesis, but I am quite sure that the "Bush phenomenon" has a strong spiritual component.

There is a God, if only in the minds of his followers, and God does do things, if through no other mechanism than through the subconscious actions of his believers.

I have been involuntarily following some spiritual currents lately, and sense significant movements in Darkness. Something big is going on, but I cannot currently relate it directly to current world events.

Bush and his followers are being positioned for an upcoming struggle, but I don't know which "side" they really represent. "A few of them" is my current sense of things -- a temporary alliance of like-minded spirits.

I predict that the spiritual elements of world events will become more perceptible to all of us in the coming years.

[edit on 11/7/2004 by Majic]

The fact is, we're not alone. Those of us with psychic or magical gifts are in far greater numbers than ever before. The oppressive nature of governments, religions and even the disbelief of those who haven't experienced it hasn't made a dent in our numbers. In fact, it's made us stronger both as a social force and as individuals, as nothing separates the wheat from the chaff like adversity. And for every one who steps forward and says "Yes, I am a [witch/psychic/empath/magician]," there are countless more who practice in secrecy. Even those who speak of such matters don't reveal everything they do -- and for good reason. As I've said in another thread, this is not the best religio-political climate to be proving your powers just for the heck of it, and the possibility of being used as a weapon against an innocent somehow doesn't appeal to me in the least.

Enter "parapsychology" and "research" into any search engine. You will find that there are large institutions, universities and governmentally funded organizations all over the world that are seriously pursuing the issue. There are scientific journals and texts available (if you have the money) and plenty of abstracts on the topic. It's obvious that enough of the scientific community and world governments believe in psychic abilities to have consistently researched & funded them for decades. Do you think such monies would have continued beyond one or two studies if nothing tangible was produced? Hardly. So what further proof do you need?

[edit on 7-11-2004 by Hecate100]

I always found it funny how when someone attacks someone else its because their insecure. It's because people get tired of hearing the samething over and over again without proof that can be tested and repeated. I think the only thing you mentioned that has any merit is remote viewing. I think science still obviously has a lot to learn, but the scientific method is the best weve got, and to throw that out everytime something controversal comes around, is just plain silly and the opposite of progression. Science isnt really about "truth", it just takes what it can and sees what works, what doesnt work. It observes. With that said, I think the evidence for these powers, is inconclusive as of right now. In my personal opinion, the only thing that you mentioned that I would give any serious consideration is remote viewing, but thats just me. I hope I havent offended you, thats not my intention and if I have, im sorry.