Socialism is the best ideology

Originally posted by polarwarrior

Originally posted by Magister
Getting the same thing everyone else gets kills the incentive to work hard and inovate.

Socialism doesn't mean everyone gets exactly the same, just much more similar. So in capitalism were the ceo gets 380x what their average employee is paid - socialists see that the ceo does not work the equivalent of a whole years work in one day and are simply abusing their power to pay themselves more.

As for the innovation you mentioned, the scientists working on cancer cures barely get paid anything compared to the brokers gambling away the 401k's of working families. In capitalism the money motivation is not tied to how much you contribute to society, but rather how much you can take from it!

Also money isn't the only motivator, if it were nobody would volunteer and nobody would work in any career other than the most lucrative one they possibly can.

Why study for years to be a doctor, engineer, teacher, scientist; when you get the same as a clerk, janitor, gardener and so on?

You don't get the same job. You study to become a doctor because you enjoy it and want to help sick people. People who only do it for the money don't make caring doctors anyways so I couldn't care less if they wanna be a janitor.

Yes, yes, we know. The party leaders get more perks, the dacha on the shoreline, the caviar, because they contribute more to the collective than the guy who sweeps the streets.

Who decides who gets what job?
Who decides what job deserves more perks than another job?
Who keeps that evil CEO in line?

See, people are not insects, they do things in their own self interest. Without strong leadership and people calling the shots to make people serve the collective, socialism rapidly falls apart but, in order to keep it going, you need an Orwellian, strongly controlled society. Thus true socialism is impossible outside the imagination.

A true believer.

It's like arguing with Sheldon.



Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Originally posted by fadedface
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

I only want to converse with people who have an understanding of communism and socialism and who don't dismiss it as being only supported by 'students' and 'professors'.

Maybe I should have raised this topic in an forum devoted specifically to political theory and debate but I was expecting more than the typical ham fisted dismissals of socialism and communism.

Then again I suppose a lot of the people who use this forum are americans and you seem to have some strange love of capitalism. Did you check the homelessness figures in your country lately? Good ol' capitalism eh?

I'm surprised none of you have called communism 'evil' yet and 'against God's will' to be honest.

edit on 17-5-2013 by fadedface because: spelling

Did you look up the millions who starved to death during the forced industrialization of the Ukraine? The elimination of the Kulaks?

You don't want a discussion, you want an echo chamber.

Truth: are you a student?

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Truth: are you a student?

No I'm not and I never have been.

Socialist left wing views are quite common among a lot of British working class people such as myself and not the exclusive reserve of 'students' and 'professors' as they seem to be wherever you're from.

Socialism has been proven defunct, worthless, a pipe dream, corrosive to liberty, and in the form of communism, a prelude to mass murder.

Free Market Capitalism, conversely, in the form of conscious capitalism (as outlined by John Mackey and Raj Sisodia in the book "Conscious Capitalism") is a far more ethical and economically viable, not to mention conducive to scientific growth (in that it fosters personal liberty, and so decentralized individual human activity i.e entrepreneurship), economic system.

Originally posted by fadedface

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by fadedface

 

The minute, no, the very second Socialism takes over, it fails right then and there. The people in POWER, where do they live as opposed to the common people? Do they eat the finest steak while everyone else eats Spam? Who controls the leaders?

Why should scientists and doctors strive to find cures when they get the same of everything as everyone else? In manufacturing, where is the incentive to create quality products. Answer: fear. Fear of those in power.

Total fail.

You've obviously never read any socialist and communist theory and just base your opinion on a false perception of the ideology and the capitalist propaganda you've been indoctrinated with. Go back to worshipping rich fascists and don't post in this thread again.

You attack me and don't even answer any of the questions. Why are you here if only to harass those that disagree with you without even offering any kind of debate? Try one more time:

1. The people in POWER, where do they live as opposed to the common people?
2. Do they eat the finest steak while everyone else eats Spam?
3. Who controls the leaders?
4. Why should scientists and doctors strive to find cures when they get the same of everything as everyone else?
5. In manufacturing, where is the incentive to create quality products.

Answer and you just might teach me something. Don't answer, and you prove you're just another self-righteous idiot with no answers.

Originally posted by fadedface

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Truth: are you a student?

No I'm not and I never have been.

Socialist left wing views are quite common among a lot of British working class people such as myself and not the exclusive reserve of 'students' and 'professors' as they seem to be wherever you're from.

edit on 17-5-2013 by fadedface because: spelling

So you haven't studied. You see socialism as a way to pull people down to your level rather than building yourself up. What do you do for a living? What is your trade?

Originally posted by Astrocyte
Socialism has been proven defunct, worthless, a pipe dream, corrosive to liberty, and in the form of communism, a prelude to mass murder.

Capitalism only murders poor people of course but then again its their own fault for being poor isn't it?

reply to post by jiggerj


I don't care what you think of me and I'm not interested in discussing this with you or getting into any argument.

But how full communism would operate and the possibilities of social structures it offers can easily be read about I won't patronize you by giving any links to the necessary information.

Wall street is mixture of corparatism, gambling, and fraud. It has little if anything to do with capitalism! The teeming, huddled masses of immigrants came to this country for the opportunities that capitalism provided!

Originally posted by fadedface

Originally posted by Astrocyte
Socialism has been proven defunct, worthless, a pipe dream, corrosive to liberty, and in the form of communism, a prelude to mass murder.

Capitalism only murders poor people of course but then again its their own fault for being poor isn't it?

No, capitalism has increased the standard of living for everyone and gives people incentive to succeed. From horse and buggy to trains to airplanes: capitalism. Cures for diseases that used to kill and crippple: capitalism.

Socialism and communism bring death by the truckload.

Originally posted by fadedface
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I don't care what you think of me and I'm not interested in discussing this with you or getting into any argument.

But how full communism would operate and the possibilities of social structures it offers can easily be read about I want patronize you by giving any links to the necessary information.

edit on 17-5-2013 by fadedface because: (no reason given)

LOL. "I only want to talk to people who share my love of socialism and anyone who disagrees must never have studied it because if they had they would have the same blind love of it I do.". I'm guessing the freedom of speech would not be part of your socialist utopia--can't have dissension in the collective, prole.

reply to post by NavyDoc


I'm not interested in discussing this with you anymore.

What I would say though is you should compare the unemployment rates in socialist societies compared to capitalist ones.

An example being in Britain when the Labour government of the 60s and 70s was in power unemployment was less than one million compare this to Thatcher's unrestrained capitalism of the 80's which privatised industry and led to widespread unemployment and the unemployment figures have never dropped below two million since then and at their height was over three million unemployed.

employment in capitalist societies is based on market forces and competitiveness it isn't about providing employment for the proletariat it is about profit anything else is coincidental.

Capitalism has failed and the inequality and social deprivation that exists in overtly capitalist countries such as the USA is proof of this.

reply to post by NavyDoc


No amount of political freedom will satisfy the hungry masses.
Vladimir Lenin

Originally posted by fadedface
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

I'm not interested in discussing this with you anymore.

What I would say though is you should compare the unemployment rates in socialist societies compared to capitalist ones.

An example being in Britain when the Labour government of the 60s and 70s was in power unemployment was less than one million compare this to Thatcher's unrestrained capitalism of the 80's which privatised industry and led to widespread unemployment and the unemployment figures have never dropped below two million since then and at their height was over three million unemployed.

employment in capitalist societies is based on market forces and competitiveness it isn't about providing employment for the proletariat it is about profit anything else is coincidental.

Capitalism has failed and the inequality and social deprivation that exists in overtly capitalist countries such as the USA is proof of this.

edit on 17-5-2013 by fadedface because: (no reason given)

I thought "true" socialism hasn't been tried? You contradict youself.

The only reason why European socialism didnt collapse immediately was (and is) that socialists need continued confiscation from those evil capitalists to keep them afloat.

The truth is that more Americans have a better standard of living than anywhere else in the world. Whereas starvation kills most poor people in the world, obesity is the primary health problem of our poorest. Whereas the poorest people in the various "workers paradises" might have only one pair of shoes, ours have color TVs and X-boxes. Your attempt to use the US as an example actually shows the superiority of capitalism over socialism.

Of course you don't want to debate me, you've put no rational thought into it other than "I want to bring anyone down to my level who has more than me."

Originally posted by fadedface
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

No amount of political freedom will satisfy the hungry masses.
Vladimir Lenin

Exactly. Freedom and socialism are at odds with each other. Lenin put it quite well, freedom must be destroyed if the revolution will profess. Freedom of thought. Freedom of speech. Freedom of choice. All will be squelched under socialism and all must be eliminated if socialism is to survive.

Originally posted by fadedface

Socialism is the fairest and most equal political ideology

Nope.

The best ideology is capitalism without the corruption.

When people think the capitalist ideology is flawed, because it seems unfair, and they look closer, they find it's not the capitalism that's the problem, it's the corruption within the capitalist system that skews the results.

All the bribery and fraud that go on, and ways that people "cheat" the system. This is what introduces the unfair playing ground.

Same thing happens in the Socialist system. People find ways to cheat, use political influence to get favors, and the system rots again.

When a person cheats in the capitalist system, the best products lose to inferior products, because of a bribe in the backroom.

When people cheat, the best talents sit on the sidelines, while the mediocre get the jobs and the rewards.

If it weren't for these flaws, the capitalist system would actually deliver "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." Which is the Socialist dogma.

Capitalism produces Socialism naturally, when corruption is removed.

Aim for capitalism, and you'll get good socialism.

But, if you aim for Socialism, something different happens instead. A few people start making all the decisions, about how to use the resources of the society, and the wealth ends up in the pockets of their friends, family, and acquaintances. The important thing becomes who you know, not what you know, and the society moves far away from that ideology "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." It becomes, "From each whether he is able or not, and to each according to his connections."

Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek republics: Freedom for slave owners.

Vladimir Lenin

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.

Karl Marx

Originally posted by NavyDoc


I thought "true" socialism hasn't been tried? You contradict youself.

No I said 'full' communism has never existed.

The fact you can't seem to tell the difference between socialism and communism completely invalidates your arguments and shows your diatribe against communism as the typical right wing ignorance that it is.

Also I'm guessing your from an affluent background (smug middle American?) which would explain your preference for capitalism.

Also from what I've read I'm also assuming you've never actually experienced socialism only read about it in biased right wing treatises. Well I've actually been affected by both capitalist and socialist policies and I know that socialism as an ideology is fairer and more equal to ordinary working class people.

i think people are being too binary, too black and white.
pure socialism doesn't work because people lose the drive to make effort since there is no point to trying when all needs are met but in ways that someone else determines as "met". we need something to strive for or we stagnate.

pure capitalism leads to the evils that communism was created to fight, tyranny of those with the power crushing their workers underfoot to make a few cents more.

people that say the free market is better need to look up the history of the industrial revolution in the UK and the US.
the pain and suffering people suffered from regulationless capitalism is why we have unions, because capitalists abused and destroyed the lives of people.
if a worker got their arm stuck in machinery did the business owner give the man workmans comp or medical help? no he threw the man out in the street!
did his workers receive days off? no! if it wasn't for unions, socialist groups we wouldn't have weekends or child protection.

what is better is a hybrid system, socialist programs and support for innovation and monetary compensation through capitalism.
one or the other doesn't work because both ignore human nature, humans are selfish and unselfish at different times, wanting to be part of a group and not.

of course people on this thread are doing the typical conflation of communism and socialism while mistaking corrupt totalitarian dictatorships of the past for communism.
communism has never worked on a country level, because of how it's supposed to come about.

first step, revolution,the over throw of the current system.
step two, choose a person for total control to set up the system to remove the state and create equality for all.
step three:implement system, become a stateless society with equal control over the means of production, leader steps down as he isn't needed anymore.

no country has made it to step three, that kind of power given willingly is too hard to give up.