ILLEGITIMATE PASTORS non-accreditation,

Originally posted by drivers1492
reply to post by tony9802

 

Would it not be more beneficial and simpler for the body of the church/temple to simply talk to the individual and see if they have enough background to be put in a leadership position? That way instead of sitting in the high chair being spoon fed you actually can feed yourself? Standardized testing will simply lead to pushing of particular dogma's and interpretations in the long run. If you know religious texts for yourself then you would know if an individual knows them as well. It's foolish to make things more difficult than it needs to be imo.

If you were on said panel that read through the testing do you tell an individual that "yes, you are well read, but your wrong in what your reading and conveying" and deny them a pastor id? Like I pointed out who makes the decision of the correct answers?

Here's an interesting idea for all of those pastors trying to pass the PASTOR BAR EXAM.. If they can't agree on anything, maybe they are all doing something wrong. They should seek to remove the divisions:

That people saw different disciples of Christ as representing different teachings was addressed by Paul himself, in the 1st letter to the Corinthians: (1 Cor 1:10–18)

“ I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas(Peter)"; still another, "I follow Christ."

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel — not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power

reply to post by tony9802

First off, I don't know if you read on page 1 or 2, but there was a post there where it was stated, based on experience, that you can currently "buy and purchase," Pastor certification and recognition for a mere, very mere 35.00usd. Tell me if there isn't a problem there. In response though, the way you state your questions, causes me to feel that you are assuming that there are no common final denominators or common final agreements by all of these various churches and non-demominational groups- so much so that they are entirely unable to agree on any points, concerning what is WRITTEN IN scripture. "The persons attempting to become Pastors, given how you have posed the question, are entirely UNABLE TO AGREE on anything that is WRITTEN IN scripture." If there is no agreement between all of these would-be pastors, should they even be taking that BAR EXAM in the first place? Is there ever a moment where all of these would-be pastors can agree on anything that is WRITTEN IN Scripture? What does Scripture say that creates so much confusion and misunderstanding? If the levels of disagreement are so high that they merely create more conflict and confusion, then I would probably say that all of those would-be pastors, should not be seeking to pass the BAR EXAM, and should not be attempting to become pastors. You have to agree on something about Scripture. Otherwise it's over. If they are unable to agree upon anything, then there simply is no Truth, (capital T).

Yep I have read everything up to then end and I'm aware you can get those for a small fee. I actually am registered as an ordained minister (some years ago) using the same online deal but mine was free. I do understand the point your trying to make but I think your missing mine. I'm not speaking of the ones taking the exams having the issue's. What I'm asking is, since there is many differences in interpretation, how do you make the decision that what the test will be based on is the correct one? You have to make that exception in order to have a standardized test otherwise its sort of pointless. Your points about how people are preaching things that aren't in line with scripture I can understand but its much more subtle in many ways the differences involved. Everything from the type or need of baptizing, osas, communion and list list goes on and on and on depending on what church or place you go too. Thats what I'm wondering, how do you decide whats the correct information to use for your standardized testing.

I'm not saying churches can't agree but facts are that they don't agree thats just basically knowledge throughout history. The way I'm posing my question is based on that fact. Your assertion for the testing seems to state there is one correct interpretation since in order to test someone's knowledge of something there has to be a correct answer to the base the test on otherwise its a futile attempt.

Reply to post by tony9802

Exactly. So whose word has more weight?

That of Paul or that of Jesus. Is the servant greater than the master?


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reply to post by tony9802

pas·tor (pstr)
n.
1. A Christian minister or priest having spiritual charge over a congregation or other group.
2. A layperson having spiritual charge over a person or group.
3. A shepherd.
tr.v. pas·tored, pas·tor·ing, pas·tors
To serve or act as pastor of.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin pstor, shepherd; see p- in Indo-European roots

"Ok, maybe you have a point, but if I choose a Pastor, it's like choosing my doctor. Who is this person? And what are their credits. I'm just saying that a Pastor should be well read... and that he/should be able to prove that informedness."

That's a really one-sided and closed mind perspective/requirement. WHO are they? What are their credits? And YOUR saying YOu insist they be well read? Judge and jury are you? Who are you to decide their qualifications and reading history? What would be acceptable to someone like yourself? And by what authority do you have any to say?

Read what YOU think they should? Study how YOU say they should? Judge them on that...by your standards?
How much Theology have you studied personally? What university or theological schools or courses have you attended to make such statements and determinations.? Some people work with churches years and are APPOINTED and designated PASTORS for their devotions to their congregations and churches. Are they any less PASTORS because you think they need certification and "requirements".

Sad thing is is....mostly, I get what youre getting at. But your thinking is flawed. You give no credit to other countries, denominations or any other learning system than whats available in America as you said.

Look up the definition of PASTOR in general. And what qualifications, experience and certifications will you find in the definition? And if you needed a Dr? I could see you sick and on vacation asking a South American Shaman "What are your certifications? You studied the American way, right? Who are you?"..as you lay dying.

Ill pray you gain some insight in this instead of using a blanket referral term for one place, in one country, and one learning system....for something you apparently don't understand. That's extremely narrow-minded when you don't grasp the definition by your usage of the word "ILLEGITIMATE" and "UNACCREDITED".

reply to post by mysterioustranger


Let me show you what some basic requirements are to become a Rabbi: judaism.about.com...
It seems like pastors aren't held up to the same standards..



"Let me speak for mainstream Rabbinical training, excluding the possibility of "private" ordination, phony "diploma mills," and a variety of marginal programs.

In mainstream Rabbinical programs, Orthodox through Reconstructionist, and even the newer post-denominational schools that are nonetheless truly mainstream with the highest academic standards:

1. There is some form of admission process that often includes testing, both psychological and subject competence

2. One has to complete a minimum of 4 years of college

3. The major differences between the institutions are the various emphases - Talmud, philosophy,Hebrew, history, Bible, etc. even though there are minimum requirements in each subject area plus a variety of practical Rabbinics, pastoral psychology, etc.

4. A minimum of 5-6 years and also one year in Israel, especially to develop a relationship with Israel and familiarity with Hebrew as a living language

5. Graduation or ordination is essentially the same kind of ceremony with various kinds of certification or diplomas. I chose to have all of my teachers sign my diploma, and while it took some time to receive, I am very glad as most are no longer living except in my heart and mind - and I miss them

6. Some Seminaries or yeshivot also require an internship to gain some practical experience."


It seems like pastors aren't held up to the same standards..
.

reply to post by mysterioustranger


"Look up the definition of PASTOR in general. And what qualifications, experience and certifications will you find in the definition? And if you needed a Dr? I could see you sick and on vacation asking a South American Shaman "What are your certifications? You studied the American way, right? Who are you?"..as you lay dying."


That's perfect.. we can compare shamans to pastors.. neither need certification but they are both spiritual counselors and spiritual leaders; Both acting as doctor, , as spiritual healer, and spiritual guide, but neither necessarily requiring certification. Where does it end? It's just too easy and simple to go to a 2 year adult night school, gather a couple of certificates and begin working as a pastor.

You should take a look at the post above to see what it takes to become a Rabbi;
Big, big difference..

reply to post by tony9802


Who do you think gives the accreditation? Jesus? No.

Honestly, with the general hate I see towards the educational system by the average conservative, I would have thought it would be viewed as a good thing to not be accredited by them.

Probably the best thing would be to have a fraud style thing that if you claim to be a religious pastor/priest etc of X faith and are found not to have met that faiths rules then you can be in trouble, it won't stop the one person making their own religion but if they say they're a catholic priest then they should have the paperwork and thus will have spent the required time to understand enough of the dogma's/texts to be able to provide a reasonable service to their congregation

I think I'd be far more upset over the "TV Colleges" and "TV Trade Schools" that take people's 20-30 thousand dollars in student debt ...and THEN see them find out that they have no accreditation which matters within the field they'd spent all that money on. I've got several in classes that broke themselves in schools we ALL know from the commercials running all the time .....to discover the diploma doesn't even make good toilet paper. The paper is too rough. lol.....

Accreditation just means everything if you plan on using the education credits elsewhere or intend to enter a field that requires min. standards to an educational base (Like Geography or Physics isn't taking a degree from Matchbox U and calling it fit to stand next to Princeton or Yale for meaning).

I'm not sure if the Bible colleges/Universities in this city are all accredited the same or to the same level and by the same organizations that bestow those titles or not. If the graduates can find work in their Pastoral areas of life? Who cares? I'll guess they sure don't.

Who do you think gives the accreditation? Jesus? No. Honestly, with the general hate I see towards the educational system by the average conservative, I would have thought it would be viewed as a good thing to not be accredited by them.

THANK YOU!! That's exactly right, most people here that are posting dislike the idea of the educational system being involved in these issues. There must be a few reasons why so many conservatives are opposing involvment of the ed. system: It seems as though they do not want to be held accountable for the absence, severe absence of education revolving around these would be pastors and their supposed congregations..Thanks for the point.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Right, even simple accreditation is meaningless as it just serves the purpose of transferring would-be credits which may nonetheless also be ineligible!! I don't want to knock it too hard, but look, it's sort of like these phony diploma mills that you're mentioning.. I just think it's totally scandalous and outright negligent.

The standard is below minimum level. it's just really bad, and there is no authority to turn to that can contain and monitor the space of these religious organizations. Maxatoria's idea about creating a Fraud Office for this industry would be an idea, but that nonetheless doesn't answer the question of depth and breath of education involved in order to actually be someone to be monitored as a would- be pastor in the first place.These individuals need to go through normal, educational channels to obtain appropriate documentation. Maybe that's too challenging??

Really the best thing is for each area to do a check on the new guy...where did he study, how long, references and perhaps even take them for a quick theological test drive to see if they are worthy to be your pastor if you have some knowledge yourself and see if their views match what the locals views are

reply to post by tony9802


Well, I do see your point that the current system has everything from Forrest Gump to true masters of the Bible and all the words it contains, coming out to serve a new 'flock' somewhere.

The question is...if it's what the Church they are attending the University of is happy with ...and it's what the 'flock' is content to listen to? Where is it that anyone outside the process has the right to interfere? It's one thing if a Pastor takes his non-religious course credit to hold out for a job outside that field. Well... Too bad and it's so sad...but it won't mean much more than a High School Diploma in many cases.

Inside the world they are training to enter though? Accreditation seems secondary to getting the theology training the Church (whichever Church it may be) wants it's new people to have. As I understand it, accreditation comes with federal and/or state mandates of how, where, by whom and in what methods education may be delivered....even to adults.

I can see why religious schools wouldn't want to be in the position of having that all dictated by a State of any sort. ....as long as they keep their education where it has value and don't push it outside there, where it does not.

Originally posted by tony9802

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by tony9802

 

Who cares about accreditation to teach/preach the gospel? I don't think Peter and Paul had any accredited education.

Who cares about accreditation?? This is absurd.. You have to be someone trained in the understanding of Gospel to preach it properly.. The disciples were exactly that, students of the time, and conveying what they were learning from Their teacher.

I think my problem is that, some pastors totally overlook what is taught and written in Scripture simply to defend their personal ways of living. I will give an example: some (married) pastors, believe anal and oral sex with their wives is okay, and something that Jesus Christ would find acceptable.. Do you agree?

edit on 17-5-2013 by tony9802 because: (no reason given)

well..

a having a degree in theology doesn't make one a pastor NOR a preacher...it just means that you went to school for 4-6 years..the reason why the disciples were made Apostles is because of their close relationship with the Lord Jesus himself..

THAT is what makes a Pastor/Teacher/Prophet/Apostle...however, anyone that is a Christian, should know how to study the bible, you can do it in a matter of months, not years...whom God the Father calls.. he empowers.. simply as this ..

My wife and I have been through the gambit with churches except 1, which was a independent church, all the others were main stream charismatic .. and failed to believe what God wanted.. God wants a body ministry, and i'm not talking about serving cookies and coffee..

reply to post by tony9802

I was recently, not too long ago, doing some research on the accrediation of Pastors, and what constitutes a legitimate guide or instructor of Gospel and Scriptures.

Just like Jesus and the Disciples needed accrediation, seminary, Bible college, etc? NO!!!!!!

They learned from the man himself. Eventually you get the Holy Spirit as a direct experience, Teacher, and Guide and that becomes the Ultimate Accrediation/Seminary/College.

I was astounded when I discovered that apparently some of these purported Bible colleges and similar teaching institutions actually do not even have legitimate accreditation;

I was astounded when I discovered that a majority of actual Pastors who are legitamately acrredited, are a bunch of modern day Pharisees/Saducees who only teach what they know from the Bible which was told to them, all head based knowledge and lack the Ego Death (Not I, but Christ in Me), and direct Holy Spirit experiences, and Divine Non-judgmental Love bliss that comes from going within, surrender, and letting go.

Anyone who has been indwelled with the Holy Spirit is Divinely accredited.

I found some basic preliminary information on wikipedia, and I thought to myself how incredibly wrong it is to have Pastors coming out of unaccredited institutions attempting to teach Scriptural ideas to average everyday people.

VArious denominations. like Eastern Orthodoxy, say that it's incredibly wrong for anyone to teach Scripture unless they have been indwelled with the Holy Spirit Mystical Ego death experiences and are teaching directly from the Spirit.

Additionally, as stated, this particular college does not seek accreditation, and to me, from a more traditional theological perspective, this seems outright fraudulent.

Ha!!!!

One of the most respected Theologians in Thomas Aquinas, wrote volumes and VOLUMES of foot thick theological books and commentaries, and then towards the later portion of his life, he experienced God. Do you want to know what he said after he experienced God?

Paraphrased he said about everything he wrote in his life, that it is like Straw to the Wind compared to the experienced Divine Glory.

And here you are, worried about legitimate accreditation. I know self Taught Christians, who actually have the Holy Spirit, who are legit ......no college necessary like in the days of Christ.

How can a pastor who has merely received a "Certificate of Completion," and not a bona-fide DIPLOMA, call himself someone genuinely studied and learned in the traditions of Gospel?!

Good luck with that. I know people who make amazing food, better than some of the top chef restaurants I've tasted. And they don't have any degrees to prove it, other then being self taught and practicing their craft.

You don't even understand how absurd this all sounded to me when I first made the inquiry, and now I'm simply believing that most pastors are probably unschooled and untrained for their positions. How shameful.. I'm hoping to here some interesting comments and info. from everyone. Thanks!

You have a lot to learn. Get the Holy Spirit experience and then you will know what, how, when, and to whom to teach. Being around, and knowing people, observing how the ego works, watching people, learning life, psychology, philosophy, reading, experiencing, and becoming transformed by the Holy Spirit is what makes up being accredited by God himself.

I've sat with Phd published Theologians, who are modern day famous, on the tour circuit, and on all the top Christian radio stations with their sermons. And I've sat with them and asked them about the deeper things that come from the Holy Spirit, and ego death, and conquering the carnal adamic mind, and Divine Bliss, and they've looked me like I'm an alien.

Here are all these Phd Theologians, making killing$ on the book and tour circuit, and they don't even know what ego death through the Holy Spirit is and how the ego operates, let alone all the deeper things within like accessing the Soul and so forth.

You've got it all mixed up friend!!!! I large portion of what you think is and should be legit, is actually just watered down illegitimacy.

2 Cor 3:6 "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

There's too many at the top who are merely repeaters of the letter, and lack the life of the Spirit. Very sad thing to see

reply to post by dominicus

I've sat with Phd published Theologians, who are modern day famous, on the tour circuit, and on all the top Christian radio stations with their sermons. And I've sat with them and asked them about the deeper things that come from the Holy Spirit, and ego death, and conquering the carnal adamic mind, and Divine Bliss, and they've looked me like I'm an alien.

Conquering the carnal adamic mind.. I love this phrase, I can see the points you are making, now teach that phrase to these common everyday over sexualized pastors that do not understand the conquest of that carnal mind!!

They approach Xtianity as "a meat eating, ammo holding butch married man" whose sexual needs need to be met, and then that that is what a woman is made for to serve his manhood and maleness. That is literally what these people teach, personally reprehensible if not repulsive to me. They use the bible to defend their sexual needs, and thereby defend their most phallic God. That's what I'm finding particularly disconcerting and disturbing about these modern "got saved yesterday" pastors- who likewise receive a high school equivalent diploma to teach nothing about the spirit, and it's obvious anti-carnal nature, non-carnal structure.

I was recently looking at how there is a 50% DIVORCE RATE among Xtian men and women, and where apparently the sanctity of marriage is no longer even respected, especially by these conservative Bible Belt, Divorce Belt folks. There are more divorces for example, in Oklahoma (no offense...) by conservative Xtians than there are in Nevada-- the divorce capital of the U.S. par excellence!! Some surmise that part of this divorce rate is attributed to unknowledgeable pastors, who seem to not know how to play their role, to maintain and preserve healthy matrimony. amongst other things. I thought that was interesting just as a side note.

Atheists and agnostics on the other hand had the lowest divorce rates, and that causes those producing the study to wonder if there is a problem perhaps with the faith itself, or how it is being taught and understood.


I agree with you though that proper training, BOTH personal and educational, is needed to create appropriate pastoral instruction, so good point. There should be balance between the two.

Conquering the carnal adamic mind really is something these would-be pastors should seek to understand, not only for themselves but for those they seek to instruct, unsuccessfully apparently, since that divorce rate is humungous where Xtians are concerned. It just sheds a little light on the issue of sexuality, matrimony, conservative Xtians and the support they receive from their ill-instructed pastors.

The very worst thing you can do is have accrediation for pastors.

That would force those schools to adhere to a ridged cookie cutter belief system which says there is no room for change. Thats important in Medical schools where one mistake can kill someone but Christianity isn't like that. Living the Christian life is a fluid dynamic ever changing experience unique to the individual.

I don't want a pastor that teaches from a cookie cutter belief system that is so defined. I want a pastor who challenges you to search the book and Gods will through study prayer and fasting to discover the truth. I was raised Baptist and found they did things that are not even in the bible and they did not do other things that they are directly told to do in the bible - You cant have a pastor teaching these WRONG things and have the stigma floating over them that their info is "accredited" - making everyone believe a lie instead of searching for Truth.

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
The very worst thing you can do is have accrediation for pastors.

That would force those schools to adhere to a ridged cookie cutter belief system which says there is no room for change. Thats important in Medical schools where one mistake can kill someone but Christianity isn't like that. Living the Christian life is a fluid dynamic ever changing experience unique to the individual.

I don't want a pastor that teaches from a cookie cutter belief system that is so defined. I want a pastor who challenges you to search the book and Gods will through study prayer and fasting to discover the truth. I was raised Baptist and found they did things that are not even in the bible and they did not do other things that they are directly told to do in the bible - You cant have a pastor teaching these WRONG things and have the stigma floating over them that their info is "accredited" - making everyone believe a lie instead of searching for Truth.

I can see how perfect non-accreditation, no diploma, no credentials can be interesting for some Xtians, indeed it allows people to variously, more openly, and more freely explore the writings. Well, to be honest with you, that pretty seems to sum up how things operate in the U.S. Personally, I'm not happy with it, and to be honest with you, I expect someone who wants to practice this vocation, to at least enroll in a monastery for a length of time, 3 years minimum.

One thing that your position provides, is for more women and members of the gay community to be involved in pastoral work. I like this idea personally, because I believe their ideas about spirituality and scripture are much more open, progressive, enlightened, and on the spot. After all, the good book is essentially about love; loving your neighbor, forgiving others, ensuring benevolence between, all. All.

These would-be pastors should nonetheless have at least a 4 year degree from somewhere. In any subject matter, (preferably Philosophy), before beginning their work and teaching. I don't believe high school level diplomas would be sufficient for this vocation.

Originally posted by tony9802
I will give an example: some (married) pastors, believe anal and oral sex with their wives is okay, and something that Jesus Christ would find acceptable.. Do you agree?

Why wouldn't it be okay? It's THEIR wife, not mine. Why would I care what they do in their own marriage?

Originally posted by tony9802
reply to post by benrl

 

I am going to make this statement again to see what folks respond. "Some (married) pastors, believe anal and oral sex with their wives is okay, Is that something that Jesus Christ would find acceptable.. Do you agree?


Sodomy is legitimized in scripture for pastors. You tell me.

What biblical basis are you using to define "sodomy" in this context? It appears a purely secular definition to me.