The Latest Pro-Choice Hypocrisy

Originally posted by FaceLikeTheSun
So wait...if a woman makes a choice to abort the baby, its yay pro choice, but a baby is aborted against the will of the woman, it's murder?

I mean I'm not defending the guy. I think what he did is terrible and he should be convicted. But I do see the point with the OP.

We need to protect wanted pregnancies from unwanted termination, I totally agree, but to label this a murder.. is a stretch, if not legally.

reply to post by goldentorch

Isn't it an unauthorised medical procedure versus an authorised procedure where the legal distinction lies. Whilst the abortion procedure is legal it is sanctioned when carried out by qualified medical practitioners. The procedure was not sanctioned nor carried out by a qualified practitioner. Simple.

Ummmm….she was given an abortion pill. That’s the same pill a doctor would prescribe. There would have been no difference as far as procedure.

Originally posted by seabag
How is it not murder when a woman does it?

Not exactly for the same reason suicide is not murder, and attempted suicide is not attempted murder, but almost.

If a woman can legally get an abortion then this guy should NOT face a murder charge (some other charge - YES, but not murder)

Yes he should, in all other cases except where it can be proven that she was not going to have a child, which would be a case where he might still be convicted of a lesser crime.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by goldentorch

 

Isn't it an unauthorised medical procedure versus an authorised procedure where the legal distinction lies. Whilst the abortion procedure is legal it is sanctioned when carried out by qualified medical practitioners. The procedure was not sanctioned nor carried out by a qualified practitioner. Simple.

Ummmm….she was given an abortion pill. That’s the same pill a doctor would prescribe. There would have been no difference as far as procedure.

Are you purposefully ignoring the word 'unauthorised' [sic]? She didn't give permission for the drug to be administered. That is a crime, regardless of whether or not it resulted in a terminated pregnancy.

Originally posted by seabag
Ummmm….she was given an abortion pill. That’s the same pill a doctor would prescribe. There would have been no difference as far as procedure.

Except there is a slight difference in me murdering you, and you committing suicide.

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee
reply to post by seabag

 

So, if it is murder, in your eyes, why are you so upset?

I do think it's murder.

I'm upset about the double standard. I like things to be FAIR. If it's good for one person or group then it's good for all people and all groups. The same goes for freedom of speech. I don't want to pick and chose what type of speech is allowed. All speech should be allowed...even if I disagree. I'm saying if this guy is going to be charged with murder then every woman who has ever had an abortion (or at least those who have one from now on) should ALSO be charged with murder. We can't stand for laws that only apply to certain people or groups.

Originally posted by Nevertheless

Originally posted by seabag
Ummmm….she was given an abortion pill. That’s the same pill a doctor would prescribe. There would have been no difference as far as procedure.

Except there is a slight difference in me murdering you, and you committing suicide.

If that was true, assisted suicide would be perfectly legal.

Originally posted by Nevertheless

Originally posted by seabag
Ummmm….she was given an abortion pill. That’s the same pill a doctor would prescribe. There would have been no difference as far as procedure.

Except there is a slight difference in me murdering you, and you committing suicide.

Did this man commit murder in your opinion?

Does a woman commit murder when she chooses to have an abortion?

There should be no difference. Either it’s murder or its not.

Originally posted by seabag

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee
reply to post by seabag

 

So, if it is murder, in your eyes, why are you so upset?

I do think it's murder.

I'm upset about the double standard. I like things to be FAIR. If it's good for one person or group then it's good for all people and all groups. The same goes for freedom of speech. I don't want to pick and chose what type of speech is allowed. All speech should be allowed...even if I disagree. I'm saying if this guy is going to be charged with murder then every woman who has ever had an abortion (or at least those who have one from now on) should ALSO be charged with murder. We can't stand for laws that only apply to certain people or groups.

There is no double standard.

It is illegal for someone to purposefully terminate the pregnancy of another, regardless of sex, gender, race, religion, or national origin. This law applies to everyone.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

Are you purposefully ignoring the word 'unauthorised' [sic]? She didn't give permission for the drug to be administered. That is a crime, regardless of whether or not it resulted in a terminated pregnancy.

Of course that is a crime….I said that!

But administering drugs without permission isn't called murder!

Seabag is correct in this.

There must be a reckoning soon. It is detrimental to have conflicting laws, and unfortunately, lazy legal code has done that with the current abortion laws.

Same thing with equality laws, etc.

You can't have things as one thing in this sentence and as another in the next sentence. Laws don't like that...which is why the Supreme Court gets put to so much use, as of late.

Hopefully, some aspiring lawyers will take it upon themselves to clean it up a bit, but I doubt it.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

 

Are you purposefully ignoring the word 'unauthorised' [sic]? She didn't give permission for the drug to be administered. That is a crime, regardless of whether or not it resulted in a terminated pregnancy.

Of course that is a crime….I said that!

But administering drugs without permission isn't called murder!

Apparently it is when it results in the termination of a pregnancy under US Judicial Code.

Originally posted by peck420
Seabag is correct in this.

There must be a reckoning soon. It is detrimental to have conflicting laws, and unfortunately, lazy legal code has done that with the current abortion laws.

Same thing with equality laws, etc.

You can't have things as one thing in this sentence and as another in the next sentence. Laws don't like that...which is why the Supreme Court gets put to so much use, as of late.

Hopefully, some aspiring lawyers will take it upon themselves to clean it up a bit, but I doubt it.

edit on 17-5-2013 by peck420 because: (no reason given)

There is not conflict.

If the pregnancy is wanted and ended without permission it can be tried as murder.
If the pregnancy is unwanted and ended with permission it isn't a crime.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

There is no double standard.

It is illegal for someone to purposefully terminate the pregnancy of another, regardless of sex, gender, race, religion, or national origin. This law applies to everyone.

You just explained the double standard!!!

It’s OK to do it yourself but not OK for someone to do it to you!

It’s still murder no matter who does it!!

If someone is murdered during a robbery do you wait to call it ‘murder’ until you know who did it? Of course not! Obviously it’s a murder and, regardless who did it, that person will be charged with murder. It’s not different in the case of abortion because the baby isn’t the mother…it’s not a suicide!

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

 

There is no double standard.

It is illegal for someone to purposefully terminate the pregnancy of another, regardless of sex, gender, race, religion, or national origin. This law applies to everyone.

You just explained the double standard!!!

It’s OK to do it yourself but not OK for someone to do it to you!

It’s still murder no matter who does it!!

If someone is murdered during a robbery do you wait to call it ‘murder’ until you know who did it? Of course not! Obviously it’s a murder and, regardless who did it, that person will be charged with murder. It’s not different in the case of abortion because the baby isn’t the mother…it’s not a suicide!

If I withdraw my money from the credit union, that is legal.
If someone uses my name to do the same without my permission, that is illegal.

If I have 11 fingers and I have one removed myself, that is legal.
If someone else does it to me while I am asleep, this is not legal.

These are also double standards under the law according to you.

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

 

Are you purposefully ignoring the word 'unauthorised' [sic]? She didn't give permission for the drug to be administered. That is a crime, regardless of whether or not it resulted in a terminated pregnancy.

Of course that is a crime….I said that!

But administering drugs without permission isn't called murder!

Apparently it is when it results in the termination of a pregnancy under US Judicial Code.

There are two seperate charges here. The second charge (murder) is only there because it happened during the commission of the first crime (drugging her against her will).

Why is it only considered murder when it happens during the commission of a crime?

Originally posted by seabag

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

 

Are you purposefully ignoring the word 'unauthorised' [sic]? She didn't give permission for the drug to be administered. That is a crime, regardless of whether or not it resulted in a terminated pregnancy.

Of course that is a crime….I said that!

But administering drugs without permission isn't called murder!

Apparently it is when it results in the termination of a pregnancy under US Judicial Code.

There are two seperate charges here. The second charge (murder) is only there because it happened during the commission of the first crime (drugging her against her will).

Why isn't it only considered murder when it happens during the commission of a crime?

It is to protect people that accidentally end pregnancies in auto accidents and such.

reply to post by seabag

Originally posted by seabag
Are you pro choice? Do you believe this man should face murder charges? If so, how can you justify the double standard?

I don't want this man to face murder charges, simply because the "pro-life" crowd will use it to further infringe on a woman's rights to her own body. That's the ONLY reason I don't want him charged with murder.

However, let me try to explain how this isn't a double standard.

Let's say I'm a woman in love with a man. I accidentally get pregnant. He wants me to have an abortion, but I refuse, because I'm against it. I choose, instead, to go through with the pregnancy and have the child. Knowing that this child will become a reality in a matter of months, I start thinking of names, tell my friends, buy some baby needs, etc. I am a woman who has her "child" growing within her. I PLAN on having a child. It's real. It's happening. I want it. This fetus has a future as my baby.

The man comes along and murders my "child". The child that I planned for. The child I had agreed to carry and give birth to. The child that had a future. That baby was murdered.

On the other hand, let's say I discover I'm pregnant and I DON'T want a child. I CHOOSE NOT to go through with the pregnancy. Instead, I choose to have an abortion. I don't make plans or think of names or buy anything, because the fetus doesn't have a future and isn't going to become a baby.

That's the difference. A woman who is pregnant with a WANTED child and one who is pregnant with an unwanted child.

reply to post by Nevertheless

Not exactly for the same reason suicide is not murder, and attempted suicide is not attempted murder, but almost.

That's ridiculous!

When a woman does it she's killing a child. When a man does it he's killing a child. Neither is suicide!

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

It is to protect people that accidentally end pregnancies in auto accidents and such.

An accident isn’t murder.

Murder is the intentional taking of life not the accidental taking of life.