Umbrella Gate...Marines asked to violate dress code protocol so President doesn't get wet

Originally posted by hellobruce
yes it is exactly the same, but the Obama haters have to hate.

I will say that in this case (without any substantive contribution though) it appears I may have been wrong about the Army and males carrying umbrellas in dress uniform.

I stand corrected...Neither males in the Marines or those in the Army are authorized to carry and use an umbrella in uniform.

I thought at some point in time there was a change to this for the Army but I certainly can’t find it. Perhaps it was some sort of local dispensation overseas or something.

So, yeah it is basically the same thing having the Army dudes holding the umbrella for the Bushes.

That however, doesn't make it ok. I remain firm in my opinion that it is a form of personal servitude as the Presidents dryness doesn’t affect his ability to perform his duties. Wet, dry, he can still read the TPOTUS and speak. Besides I think it is degrading for a warrior frankly to carry and umbrella for anyone, especially the sad sack POTUS we have now.

Originally posted by hellobruce
It is also not violating any regulation - where does it state they cannot hold an umbrella?

The internet bruce, rather than just saying someone is wrong you can actually show them. See I was wrong male Soldiers are also prohibited from carrying/using an umbrella in uniform.

27-27. Umbrella
a. Type. The umbrella is an optional purchase item.
b. Description. The umbrella is black, plain, with no logos or designs, and is of a commercial design.
c. How worn. Females may carry and use an umbrella, only during inclement weather, when wearing the service (class A and B), dress, and mess uniforms. Umbrellas are not authorized in formations or when wearing field or utility uniforms.

www.apd.army.mil...

Here is the Marine prohabition...

3035. UMBRELLAS (Female Marines). Female Marines may carry an all-black, plain standard or collapsible umbrella at their option during inclement weather with the service and dress uniforms. It will be carried in the left hand so that the hand salute can be properly rendered. Umbrellas may not be used/carried in formation nor will they be carried with the utility uniform.

www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil...

Originally posted by hellobruce
Where does it state they can carry a set of wooden steps?

Traditionally the way regulations are written not to be completely inclusive of all possible situations but just to address those common conflicts that particularly detract from the military appearance of professionalism and military bearing. In this case a man carrying and using an umbrella.

reply to post by UsedUp


Can I officially state that you are making a huge fuss over nothing?

Deleted entire post.


Because what could possibly be the point of continuing this conversation?

Have a wonderful day everyone!

reply to post by Echo3Foxtrot

Originally posted by Echo3Foxtrot
Granted, the sailors, soldiers, and airmen all have pride in what they are and what they do, but that pride and tradition comes nowhere close to that of the Marines.

So, the pride of being a marine is somehow more than the pride of being a soldier, sailor or airman? I wonder if soldiers, sailors and airmen would agree.

And being "more proud" somehow precludes a person from holding an umbrella for the president?

I could go on at length about it, but a part of me figures it'll be like talking to a wall. No offense meant by that, but I understand that you won't get it. You can't.

How very condescending of you. I think it's more likely that you simply don't have a good explanation.

Reading through this thread one thing kept going through my head.

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
reply to post by UsedUp

 

Can I officially state that you are making a huge fuss over nothing?

Two things:

1) I made an attempt to cite some military regulations and protocol issues surrounding the senior subordinate relationship from my perspective as a retired Officer.

2) I simply rendered my opinion based on the regulations and my personal experiences. I never in a million years would have asked my driver/RTO/PSD guys to carry my things or to hold an umbrella/poncho/coat (anything really) over my head so I could stay dry while (t)he(y) got wet standing at attention, on security...

I'd have given my poncho to my driver (never high enough for an Aide) so he could stay dry before I'd use it myself and most assuredly I'd never have him hold it over my head while I spoke.

How degrading...

I wasn't all that high ranking of an officer but high enough to have to learn the interpersonal skills to effectively lead and deal with handling a fairly big personal staff, driver and PSDs (Personal Security Details) security details. How one treats these men speaks volumes about one’s character in my opinion.

As for making a fuss, is it illegal, I doubt it, is it impeachable, surely not, is it a scandal - clearly not.
However, it does indicate how these men view subordinates.

I just wanted to chime in with the regulations so people could see them. As for my opinion, take it, leave it we all have them mine is no more valid than any other.

Originally posted by UsedUp
Where does it state they can carry a set of wooden steps?

Traditionally the way regulations are written not to be completely inclusive of all possible situations but just to address those common conflicts that particularly detract from the military appearance of professionalism and military bearing. In this case a man carrying and using an umbrella.

Except it does not state a man may not use a umbrella like that marine did, the same as it does not state they may carry wooden steps. yet marines carry wooden steps every time the President flies in Marine 1....

Another thing, how do we know Obama told the marines to hold the umbrellas?

But this is just another I hate Obama thread!

Ok..so Obama is getting flack over nothing..

Really an umbrella.is the best the wing nuts can do.

If this ticks you off..how about the other presidents who have soldiers salute their dogs?



Also the great Sarah Palin's quote "Mr. President, when it rains it pours, but most Americans hold their own umbrellas."
Did Sarah Palin have her own Umbrellagate?

Cannot believe she had the nerve to say that..oh wait righty's are hypocrites...

www.theatlanticwire.com...

pbs.twimg.com...

I'm not sure if these images will come thru, I was having trouble. There are plenty of these to go around but I have other stuff to do.

YES, Marines in the US of A ARE different from the other Armed Services, just as the Coast Guard is!

How many times must the MARINE PROTOCOLS be posted, for all to grasp that, indeed, a MARINE'S holding an umbrella in this manner is NOT the same as if an Army soldier or a Navy sailor or an Air Force pilot did the same thing?! Marines have a prohibitive dress-code; the others DO NOT.

It really is VERY SIMPLE. Perhaps non-Americans are simply, by definition, incapable of understanding the distinction we make here.

And I completely concur with the concomitant arguments as to out of touch elitism and effetism.

Obama didn't even NEED an umbrella! If he was so concerned about his guest's comfort, why didn't the President move the presser inside?

Minor blip on the political landscape, probably; not so minor revelation about Obama's attitude and character.

Semper fi, baby; semper fi.

Originally posted by Erin49

YES, Marines in the US of A ARE different from the other Armed Services, just as the Coast Guard is!

How many times must the MARINE PROTOCOLS be posted, for all to grasp that, indeed, a MARINE'S holding an umbrella in this manner is NOT the same as if an Army soldier or a Navy sailor or an Air Force pilot did the same thing?! Marines have a prohibitive dress-code; the others DO NOT.

What is you guys can't understand? These Marines were not carrying the umbrellas for personal use which would be prohibited. They were carrying them as part of their duty that day (they already had the umbrellas at the ready) to protect the two men from the rain as those men would have been able to hold the umbrellas themselves as they had notes and papers to hold down on the dais. Those Marines did not breach the rules governing their uniform of the day. Nor was their honor somehow compromised because they held an umbrella for the president of our country and another. And to boot, they were not ordered, they were asked, politely.

Ya know...I'm one of those people who doesn't like what Obama does. I don't like liars most of all, but I also don't like idiots or people trying to take from me, my family, my friends. But while this story may seem small, it has converted my opinion of Obama. He is obviously a dick too. How dare some self-centered prick like this demand that a real patriot, a real hero and someone giving up so much to protect our country be demeaned to holding his umbrella. Hey Obama, why didn't you just order him to wipe your ass?

When the CinC (however much we may wish he were not) tells a Marine to hold an umbrella, the Marine holds the umbrella. Protocol/dress code is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Echo3Foxtrot

 

So, the pride of being a marine is somehow more than the pride of being a soldier, sailor or airman? I wonder if soldiers, sailors and airmen would agree.

From the perspective of a Marine, yes. It is. There are soldiers, sailors, and airmen who DO agree with that sentiment. I've met them personally.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And being "more proud" somehow precludes a person from holding an umbrella for the president?

No, but MCO P1020.34G does.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
How very condescending of you. I think it's more likely that you simply don't have a good explanation.

Look, brother, it wasn't about being condescending. Though, looking back at it, I guess I could come off that way. It's about how I've seen you conduct yourself on these forums and that I know no matter how I explain it, you'll never understand it. Now, I've made an assumption that I'll probably regret, but I'll ask: have you served in the US Armed Forces, and furthermore, was it in the United States Marine Corps?

Umbrellagate? Seriously? The right is getting desperate. There are many things to be critical of Obama on, this is just silly.

Originally posted by Echo3Foxtrot


Look, brother, it wasn't about being condescending. Though, looking back at it, I guess I could come off that way.

Why yes, yes it did.

But don't worry about it the rest of us are used to hearing these noises coming from a jarhead!!

reply to post by watcher3339


You are correct, it is an issue but not to this "commander in sheet.!" If I were prez I would love to have marines near by, I love those guy's but I would make sure to never disgrace the uniform code of these fine young men in anyway.
I would make sure that if I was uninformed of the abilities and responsibilities of these men and woman assigned to the whitehouse, that they themselves would have the right to inform me personally.

Originally posted by Cabin
President is likely to have higher authority, than most of the military if not all, do not for sure, and to be honest, it is such a small thing, such a common sense, that nobody should even care about it. I understood if Obama asked the the guy to kill somebody, but holding umbrella, come on, people....

It is such a small thing regardless of the dress code protocol.

For me this is just creating a problem out of nothing...

edit on 17-5-2013 by Cabin because: (no reason given)

Yes, it is such a small thing.. holding an umbrella, and it would have been just as small had he carried it himself then right? Having the Marines carry for him then was an insult (to them), and shows that he puts himself above others.

He shows his hand and his part in the divide of the classes (in my opinion). After all, holding an umbrella is such a small thing.. so small that he placed it below him.

reply to post by Echo3Foxtrot


If you're going to stand on protocol and code, then this protocol should clear it up.

MCOP1020.34 MARINE CORPS UNIFORM REGULATIONS

Commanders may interpret the provisions of this Manual to address specific concerns whenever necessary.
...
Articles that are not authorized for wear as a part of a regulation uniform will not be worn exposed with the uniform unless otherwise authorized by the Commandant or higher authority.

And...

Title 10 - Responsibilities of the United States Code, Chapter 507

the Marine Corps shall provide detachments and organizations for service on armed vessels of the Navy, shall provide security detachments for the protection of naval property at naval stations and bases, and shall perform such other duties as the President may direct.

Given that the president is the Commander in Chief, he is authorized to interpret the marine dress code whenever necessary (like to keep a visiting Prime Minister from getting wet) and to direct the marine to perform other duties (like holding an umbrella).

Yes, a Marine isn't supposed to carry an umbrella, except under special or extenuating circumstances. Washington Post

“Marines are always out getting rained on. That’s sort of what we do,” said Capt. Eric Flanagan, a Marines spokesman. A request from the president to a Marine who serves at the White House, however, would be an “extenuating circumstance,” he said.

Flanagan also pointed to Title 10 of the U.S. Code, which states that members of the Marine Corps shall “perform such other duties as the President may direct.”

As I've said several times in this thread, I'm going to take the word of the Marines themselves and not ATS members who insist on taking offense at this because their "pride" is wounded.

You say I won't understand. But you're mistaken. I understand it. People who choose to take offense and feel victimized, when no offense was intended, kind of irk me. It's the political right who are offended at this story. People who hate Obama. It's political. And they don't have the balls to admit it, but instead stand on some principle of "pride" or political correctness. It's not politically correct to ask a marine to hold an umbrella because you might hurt his pride... Bah!

And no, I have never served in the armed forces. That's hardly relevant. But I'm sure you'll tell yourself that it is. But facts are facts. And what happened here did NOT break any code and what the president did was NOT out of disrespect.

There's no problem here. Just like the OP said..1. Male Marines are not allowed to carry an umbrella while in uniform unless it is to cover a lady that they are escorting. They were clearly escorting their b!####

I really hate the president for countless reasons but I honestly have to agree that atleast for me this is a non issue. I really don't care. But I've also never served in the military so its completely possible I just don't get it.

As a man I wouldn't feel comfortable having another man sit there and hold an umbrella to keep me dry and he stands in the rain. Atleast let him get out of the rain too.