How can the US Government........

Originally posted by TrueAmerican

Originally posted by Hopechest
Well correct me if I'm wrong but quakes do not indicate an ash cloud which is the point of concern here right?

Is there not plenty of seismic activity without ash clouds going on up there?

If that is the case don't then need to independently verify there is an ash cloud outside of the seismic monitoring?

If so then they don't really need seismic monitoring, they need a radar or more observation towers.

The best answer I can give to that is that seismographic plots from seismic stations at volcanoes often can, and do, have special eruption signatures, beyond tremor and quake signatures. But by the time tremor is continuous and strong, someone is already concerned, and phone calls have been made, and lives saved. Hopechest, the point is clear. They need the monitoring. I don't know what else to say to help you understand.

I understand that monitoring helps but I am trying to weigh the cost v. benefit here and simply do not have enough information to go on.

For example, how many planes can we expect to lose without it?

How many crashed before we had it?

Are there any other less expensive ways to ensure the safety?

What equipment is actually required to do that job.

I really can't add anymore than that so will gracefully bow out but thank you for explaining some things I wasn't aware of. I'm always happy when I can learn something in a field I know very little about.

I suppose you are right though and we should keep it.

Originally posted by Hopechest

What I'm getting from this article is that they want funds to repair their equipment and are playing the fear card of planes crashing if they don't get it when the actual equipment has nothing to do with planes crashing.

edit on 15-5-2013 by Hopechest because: (no reason given)

I see your point. But unfortunately in this "show me how this money will help Americans" fiscal climate, the scientists have to use this language to justify the budget requests. Funding for science is very short-sighted.

Frankly, I'm disgusted that we can't spend a few 10's of millions more on instrumentation for the pure scientific benefit of complete, accurate data.
Breakthroughs in geoscience come with an insight of genius, a testable hypothesis, and gobs of accurate data.

Yes, IMHO, every potentially active volcano in US territory should be covered, maintained and monitored 24/7 by at least 3 seismometers; more if the mountain is covered by glaciers.
What can be learned from that type of monitoring will no doubt keep planes out of ash plumes, but it may also allow us to learn enough to keep millions out of harms way when places like Mt. Rainier decide to cut loose.

Not to mention, data from volcano seismometers are used in many other geologic studies, unrelated to volcanic activity. More accurate data, over a larger area is always a good thing.

I would sleep a little easier knowing a larger percentage of the money I pay into the tax system was funding scientific research, for the pure joy of solving mysteries--and a little bit less was being spend devising more clever ways to kill people.

wow, ok, so my life just got seriously complicated. Pavlof IS erupting. But is not EXPLOSIVELY erupting.

Daily Update
The eruption of Pavlof Volcano continues. Elevated seismic activity persists and a steam and ash cloud are visible in web camera images rising occasionally up to about 20,000 ft. above sea level. A diffuse ash plume was reported late last night at an altitude of 15,000 above sea level and extending downwind to the northeast for up to 100 miles before dissipating. A recent pilot report today indicated a dark ash cloud extending east-northeast at an altitude of 20,000 above sea level. National Weather Service issued a Sigmet yesterday that remains active today.

Residents of Cold Bay, located 37 miles southwest of the volcano, observed incandescent glow at the summit during the night. Pilot reports and photographs from yesterday afternoon indicate that the lava flow extending down the northwest flank is still active and has generated debris-laden flow deposits, presumably from interaction of hot lava with the snow and ice on the flank.

Pavlof Activity - Color Code ORANGE Alert Level WATCH

www.avo.alaska.edu...

I had pulled all the station data from the ones that were further away. But I just found another station that was hidden, and off of my main list, and closer to the summit, and it is showing signatures much more clearly, and the frequency content is there. Ok, so I eat crow. Admitted.

Ha. But seriously, looking at that tremor it is light in intensity- might help explain the diffuse ash, and lack of magnitude. The stuff just isn't under all that much pressure. Wow, hard to explain to you guys what this means to me compared to other signatures I see all the time, especially at Yellowstone.




Wow, seriously studying this eruption with spectro. This has to be the ultimate definition of low level amplitude tremor. Barely propagating at all to as close as 5 km, let alone 10 km. Count amplitudes are as low as 400 counts- even less than that. That is nothing. That's less than noise floor levels on many stations. That's why this was so hard for me to agree with at first, until I opened up that hidden station. I mean on spectro it just didn't even LOOK like tremor at all on the other stations. And even on the close one, it's just so low in amplitude, all the high frequency is attenuated out, making it look like noise. No pegged hot frequencies between 2-4 Hz. More like a thin band at about 1.9 Hz.

Crazy, and not at all similar to other tremor I have seen on spectro. Good solid strong tremor propagates out beyond 50 km easily, and many cases over 100 km. It's picking up a bit in intensity over the last 20 minutes, but is still just crazy low amplitude. Wow. I'm saving files of this galore for future reference.

Does anyone understand what I am getting at here?

This is the exact kind of situation that is deathly scary about a place like Yellowstone. If super low level tremor like this were mistaken for wind noise, like possibly at MCID, because the propagation radius was so limited, and compounded by the fact that MCID is an isolated station, with the closest station being THIRTY km away, not 5, like here in this case, they could totally miss it. Or even if it was stronger in amplitude, but yet still far enough away, they could still miss it.

But the real kicker is their auto alert system would also miss it on two counts:

1) cause the amplitude that registers at the seismometer would be nowhere near high enough to trip it, and

2) because other stations are so far away, propagation wouldn't be sufficient to trip three stations or more, generating a network declared event.

And both of those things means no one's pager goes off.

Sigh. :shk:

And we may have had that situation at MCID. I swear it looks just like this. I've been screaming it from the rooftops.

And here is fricken proof of just how low in amplitude tremor can be. I mean we are talking close to noise floor levels here. Scary, scary, SCARY!

No one's listening. So die then when it blows. I'm on the other side of the country. Ha ha.

So when someone might have spotted it sooner, the thing all of a sudden increases majorly in amplitude, but by then it's too damn late. Ka POW. You be dead. You be- if you live anywhere in a 600 km radius of Yellowstone- not me. Ok, slithering back into my hole now. Bye!

My advice is to stay as completely far away from "active" volcanos as possible.

reply to post by PuterMan


It is amazing what they can and can't afford. They can everything you've discussed but DOD teachers who teach miltary children they can't afford anymore.

...

Ok I have read most of the posts, on this not all, but living here in Alaska I can tell you that yes volcanic activity has a major impact on life in the state, no matter where the volcano is located. You have to understand, we may be the largest state in the Union, however we are very limited in roads to travel from point a to point b. Most of the travel done by Alaskans is by plane, and small planes at that. Having the systems in place to alert the residents of an impending eruption is critical to the safety of the citizenry of the state. A vulcanologist I had meet several years back told me that they were placing instruments on all the volcano's they could for this reason, that would alert them to the possible threat of an eruption, and allow them to alert the state to the hazard and to pull satellite imagery and check ash flow. Back in the late 80's or early 90's, a 747 almost crashed do to ash intake into it's engines.

So yes, we DO need these stations, we have more volcano's than anywhere else in the country, besides the most active.

Grim

Move to Canada. If you aren't a citizen of the US, then you don't have to worry about your tax money funding war. Also, I don't think anyone wants to bomb Canada, so you are probably safe there.

The problem is that nothing is going to change, we talk about it, we want it to but it is not going to happen. You simply don't have the power to change it, so move.

I found this Erik Klemetti blog entry posted May 14th:

By cutting government funding of research or forcing the commercialization of science research, we’re saying that science for discovery is no longer viable or useful. Is this something you want to teach your children or grandchildren, that science can only be done if it will make someone money? Or do we want to say “no” to this trend that “business is boss” across our society and make the stand that science research is the core to discovery in the United States and across the globe.

reply to post by TrueAmerican

Does anyone understand what I am getting at here?

Yup, which was why I was concerned at the withdrawal of the funding.

Because the people in government gain money and power by attacking other countries. While they do this, they make sure to enrich themselves and their families at the expensive of the American Citizen.

We elect these people regularly.

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by TrueAmerican

 

Does anyone understand what I am getting at here?

Yup, which was why I was concerned at the withdrawal of the funding.

Well I checked, and a little birdie told me that the main problem is continual reductions in funding over years and years, and actually not due to sequestration. And not only is equipment in disrepair and they're losing stations (cause they cannot afford to maintain those telemetry legs), but they are losing people. And have been. That's the word I am getting.

So Alaskans and all Americans should take this fight right back to 'em. Alaska needs that equipment. And Yellowstone? They've been trying for years to expand their monitoring. Even with all that tourist income. And no go. They're staying afloat, but they have no extra money for much of anything, from what I hear. And I shall remind ye all that Yellowstone's monitoring is getting turned over to the NEIC. I have already been instructed to make contact with them, cause the main guys don't wanna answer many more questions.

Maybe you can contact Egypt and see if they will give back 8 million of the 250 million that Obama gave them for nothing.
Its not just spending on Defense which serves every single American, its the utter waste of pork spending by every person in Congress.
Did we really need to spend a million dollars to find out if Penis size determines who receives in a Gay relationship? Our govt sure thought so.
I could sit here all day long and list these grants for ridiculous studies that are handed out every day at the expense of the American taxpayer.
If we locked down all spending to only Constitutionally protected items we would pay around 2% of our income to taxes. the rest goes to fund stupidity.

Originally posted by Grimmley
Ok I have read most of the posts, on this not all, but living here in Alaska I can tell you that yes volcanic activity has a major impact on life in the state, no matter where the volcano is located. You have to understand, we may be the largest state in the Union, however we are very limited in roads to travel from point a to point b. Most of the travel done by Alaskans is by plane, and small planes at that. Having the systems in place to alert the residents of an impending eruption is critical to the safety of the citizenry of the state. A vulcanologist I had meet several years back told me that they were placing instruments on all the volcano's they could for this reason, that would alert them to the possible threat of an eruption, and allow them to alert the state to the hazard and to pull satellite imagery and check ash flow. Back in the late 80's or early 90's, a 747 almost crashed do to ash intake into it's engines.

So yes, we DO need these stations, we have more volcano's than anywhere else in the country, besides the most active.

Grim

Maybe they could use some oil money to fund it.
Instead of giving the residents their shareholders check for a few years put it all into the monitoring station.
Something tells me that they don't care enough about the station to give up that check though.

My take is what is running your country?
I always relished in the US diversity, but this has taken a back seat to greed and corruption.
So me and many others will not travel there as this country is so corrupt and no one is doing about this.

Lol... When has the US Government paid any attention to anything that deals with the environment??

THE EPA IS GOVERNMENT FUNDED AND A GOVERNMENT BRANCH. EPA is a .GOV SITE

The EPA is only in place to make corporations look good.

The only way to help fix the environment is from people like you that conjoin with other people to "save the environment". Scientific groups and their voice, outside of the EPA, is desperately needed!!

Isn't it almost always the science industry that takes the first kick to the teeth when budget cuts come into play ?

Education, discovery, exploration, research & development... kick kick kick.

Goes to show what's considered important and what's not in this big ol' modern day society we live in.

Long gone are the days of the Einsteins, Newtons, Plancks, and Darwins advancing theirs' and our knowledges... the poor buggers can't get the funding !




Edit to add: But you know what will bring back some funding dollars ? Yes, that's right... a massive volcanic eruption that wipes out half a city's populace because they did not get a forewarning due to lack of monitoring.

*sigh*

Rescuing this thread from page 2 oblivion...
Two remote sensing scientists from the University of Alaska, Fairbanks are starting a company called V-Adapt, whereby companies can purchase their analysis of ash plume threats from Alaskan volcanic eruptions.
This move was necessitated by the lack of funding for their jobs due to budget cuts.

Nature article 'Financial Blow for Alaskan volcano monitoring'.

What I don't understand, is this:

Not everyone is thrilled with the company’s launch; the USGS is reviewing whether there are any potential conflicts of interest involved.

Seems to me, the government shouldn't have a voice in the matter.
If the Congress can't get their act together to give a higher priority to low-probability, very-high-risk event monitoring. 20,000-30,000 people travel over those volcanoes every day, not to mention numerous cargo flights. I guess it really will take a plane going down to get funding.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican

The best answer I can give to that is that seismographic plots from seismic stations at volcanoes often can, and do, have special eruption signatures, beyond tremor and quake signatures. But by the time tremor is continuous and strong, someone is already concerned, and phone calls have been made, and lives saved. Hopechest, the point is clear. They need the monitoring. I don't know what else to say to help you understand.

I think you've made your point very well.

It's rational.
It's experience based.
It's scientific.
It's reality based.
It's functional.
It's just true.

I've flown that route to the orient enough times, I'd SURE want as much warning and communications with the pilots/airlines as possible.

I suspect space based radar sats could HELP. I do not think they can or would give the best warning GIVEN the military secrecy etc. associated with a lot of such monitoring.

In any case . . . compared to the lives likely saved, the monitoring money at worst would be peanuts.

I don't know that you can make your case any better.

As with most topics on ATS, at some point, there's no arguing with egos fiercely invested in a perspective.

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[color=6699FF]maybe THE GEOLOGISTS WOULD BE WISE TO GO TO THE AIRLINES INSURANCE COMPANIES AND FIGURE OUT A RATIONAL FIGURE TO BE PROACTIVE AND PROTECTIVE of their bottom lines economically.
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