It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by Slugworth
So we have a lawyer with no professional experience writing or interpreting DNA results who claims to know what happened, and a scientist who specialises in writing and interpreting DNA results cautioning us against viewing any such interpretation, including his own, as wholly indicative of the facts. I'm inclined to hold to the opinion of the scientist and much higher than that of the lawyer, and especially so given that he leaves room for doubt in his interpretation while the lawyer claims authority without room for doubt.
....
... that lack of good judgement does not in itself make him guilty of a crime. I don't know if he's innocent or guilty, but you are certain of his guilt. You would make a very poor juror.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Originally posted by verylowfrequency
You have been demanding links and proof from several users, I question your intentions.
It's very simple ...
A poster says that Zimmerman has a history of violence and/or racist remarks.
The poster doesnt' give any information about it .. but just posts that claim.
It is up to that poster to provide proof of the statement, otherwise, it's just a claim.
My intent ... TO GET THE FACTS whatever direction they take.
What was the point of your post? The DNA expert essentially confirms what the lawyer with the "questionable reputation" asserted -- the fact that there was NOT a widespread commingling of DNA on Trayvon's body. I'm well aware that though absolutely definitive proof cannot be extrapolated based on the evidence presented, some conclusions CAN certainly be drawn. As already mentioned, if the encounter was as violent and intense as gz alleges, there would hardly have been a spot on Trayvon's body or clothing where a heavy dose of gz's DNA did not exist.
I hope that this blog posting provided a better understanding of the DNA report in this case, but more importantly of how DNA is interpreted in general and how complicated it is. Without reviewing all of the notes, data, etc. behind the testing I as an expert cannot fully determine the significance of the findings. Certainly laypersons in the media reading only a DNA report cannot either.
DNA results are complicated, and I think it can be surprising to the public just how much “grey area” there is. The DNA report in this case raises a lot of questions that will have to be answered by experts on both sides who have full DNA discovery.
violated every single "neighborhood watch" rule, which stipulate that when a call is made to the police about a "suspicious" person, the individual on watch is NEVER supposed to confront the other person. Moreover, it is even more taboo to confront the person while armed. So Georgie Porgy VOLUNTARILY PLACED himself in a position for the tragedy to occur; it was not forced upon him in any way, shape, or form. It goes without saying that he deliberately ignored the police dispatcher, who said that he did not need to pursue Trayvon at all.
gz caused the confrontation and unjustly murdered a young man who was minding his own business.
As to your last petty point about my probably being a "poor juror", it would be interesting to see your reaction should one of your loved ones perish under exactly the same circumstances that Trayvon did.
Originally posted by Slugworth
Even if Zimmerman were unambiguosly harrasing Martin, throwing racial slurs at him, and insulting his mother it is not a legal excuse for Martin to attack Zimmerman. If Martin was attacking Zimmerman and he feared for his life then he may have been justified in shooting Martin. Zimmerman may have been in violation of the law when he shot, and that is why he is going to trial and facing prison. However, Martin was clearly and inarguably breaking the law when he attacked Zimmerman. He didn't deserve to die, but he made the choice that he was going to fight Zimmerman and he lost the fight. That is why I don't go around picking fights with people, and it is why I ignore people who try to pick fights with me. If Martin had ignored Zimmerman and walked home nothing would have happened.
While masquerading as an unbiased observer, you're little more than a gz supporter and apologist.
From my previous comments, you should have inferred that I have considerable doubt that an altercation actually took place in the manner gz has alleged.
We do know that gz aggressively left the "safety" of his car to chase Trayvon. We also know, despite your ridiculous brushing aside that he did not obey the neighborhood watch rules and the police dispatcher, gz was well aware that he wasn't supposed to be actively chasing anyone.
We also know that gz was cited for assaulting a police officer and for physically abusing his ex-fiancée. There is a report that while working as a bouncer, he went over the top in roughly throwing a woman out of a club. So, there is a plethora of evidence which paints gz as someone prone to initiate physical violence.
There is NO definitive evidence that Trayvon started a fight at all. None. The DNA doesn't confirm it, nor do the injuries to his body. If you want to put your trust in the word of a proven liar, that's up to you. I don't believe that's a viable option. I think gz lied extensively about the character of the "fight".
if one follows the evidence and assumes that gz was the only aggressor, then your argument falls completely to pieces.
So, thus ends this debate.
Originally posted by Slugworth
Likewise, there is NO definitive evidence that Zimmerman started the fight either. The DNA doesn't confirm it, nor do the injuries to his body.
Why are you so sure that he is guilty before he has a trial? Why is his innocence not a possibility worth considering?
The most important, and unassailable, fact is that gz killed Trayvon Martin.
Now use your common sense. It would be physically impossible for a person to do what Trayvon is alleged to have done and NOT get any of the other persons DNA under his fingernails.
He killed someone in a situation that he aggressively inserted himself into. He carried a gun into the confrontation, when all of the rules he was supposed to be following forbade him from doing so. He ignored the advice given to him by the police dispatcher.
You can't deliberately insert yourself into a confrontation, then claim self-defense.
The best that gz can hope for is to be found "not guilty". He can never be judged "innocent" because he admittedly perpetrated the crime.
There was no excuse for this murder.
Originally posted by snarky412
My, my, aren't we open-minded and nonjudgmental for some one who doesn't know all the facts surrounding the case.
So if you were picked as a juror, I take it you would have your decision made before the facts were known??
Nice to know......
Originally posted by snarky412
Both sides were at fault, no doubt about that,
Originally posted by snarky412
but if you want to get picky, the 'rumors' are TM slammed Zimmerman MMA style. Many would see that as self-defense excuse.....
Originally posted by snarky412
I'm on the fence on this one until I hear ALL the facts not just hearsay......
Originally posted by snarky412
And yes, both families are hurting in different ways.
Sorry if you don't or won't understand that.
Originally posted by Slugworth
Yes you can. If I am going door-to-door passing out literature, someone does not appreciate the literature and attacks me, and I defend myself it is self defense despite the fact that I deliberatly inserted myself into the confrontation.
Originally posted by Slugworth
reply to post by IvanAstikov
The point is that, just as the door to door salesman was not in violation of the law simply because he inserted himself into the situation Zimmerman was not necessarily in violation of the law simply because he inserted himself into the situation. The standard of self defense is not about whether you chose to put yourself in the situation. Choosing to walk down a dark pathway does not inherently remove the right to self defense.
Originally posted by Slugworth
Yes you can. If I am going door-to-door passing out literature, someone does not appreciate the literature and attacks me, and I defend myself it is self defense despite the fact that I deliberatly inserted myself into the confrontation.
What is the difference between "not guilty" and "innoncent"?
Originally posted by shepseskaf
He is guilty of bringing a gun into the situation
So, under no circumstances is gz "innocent".
He ignored the advice given to him by the police dispatcher.
The best that gz can hope for is to be found "not guilty". He can never be judged "innocent" because he admittedly perpetrated the crime.
There is no excuse for this murder
Killing another human being is the ultimate criminal act
The best he can hope for is to be judged "not-guilty". He will never be "innocent".
Originally posted by shepseskaf
We also know that gz was cited for assaulting a police officer and for physically abusing his ex-fiancée. There is a report that while working as a bouncer, he went over the top in roughly throwing a woman out of a club. So, there is a plethora of evidence which paints gz as someone prone to initiate physical violence. For Trayvon, no such evidence exists.
Originally posted by shepseskaf
While masquerading as an unbiased observer, you're little more than a gz supporter and apologist. How unsurprising..
Originally posted by FlyersFan
He had the legal right to carry the gun. He is guilty of nothing in regards to carrying a gun.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
...... says the Martin supporter and apologist. :@@
Originally posted by Slugworth
Killing another human being is not always a criminal act.
Is a court-ordered execution a criminal act?
Is an abortion a criminal act?
Is a police officer killing a gunman shooting random people on a killing spree a criminal act?
Is a soldier killing an enemy a criminal act?
Is an accidental, non-negligent vehicular homicide a criminal act?
Is removing someone from a life support system according to their written will a criminal act?
These are all examples of legal homicides.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Zimmermans history doesn't matter.
Originally posted by shepseskaf
Originally posted by FlyersFan
He had the legal right to carry the gun. He is guilty of nothing in regards to carrying a gun.
Completely incorrect. While performing duties under Neighborhood Watch, the National Sheriffs Association is quite clear in stipulating that that, regardless of any permits, "MEMBERS...SHALL NOT CARRY WEAPONS.."
Originally posted by shepseskaf
"Members should never confront suspicious persons....."