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Breaking the illusion of heaven

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posted on May, 17 2013 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by Hombre
 





lol jiggerj your filled with negativity, (im sorry to point that) but when i read your posts,i see disbelief and negativity .




There's no negativity, my friend. To ask questions in order to hone our beliefs into something rational is not being negative. People only see negativity when it is related to anything religious. Where would we be today if no one honed their skills as a doctor, or questioned why the earth was flat, or insisted that fire could be used as a good thing? But, challenge the common concept of heaven and I'm being negative? Not at all.




Leave your worries away, they are poison to the mind. With learning we got clever/intelligent and got filled with questions what if or what if not. Who Cares. Be happy ^^


This idea is so wrong that I don't know where to begin. Don't ask questions? Don't try? What do we do then, just let others tell us what to do and think? The very reason why you're hear at ATS is because you want to know more, just like the rest of us.
edit on 5/17/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 17 2013 @ 06:30 PM
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sure i want to know more, but i dont want more of which makes me question more and more and more and more and more and more ... and so on.
i am here because i discovered a topic in which i was interested some years ago but that time i havent understand it.
now im back to it and i have discovered that i actually want to know less and less and less ... until nothingness is all what is left.
its this point where i will know everything.

and ofcourse im here to share my experience too.


about negativity: its the art of hidden negativity, im not sure if you are aware of it, but some ppl are using negative wordings.
like :
"look what you have done wrong and never do it again."
better is "look what you have done wrong and correct it" or
"look what you have done right and continue !"

thats the example which comes in my mind 1st. its 1:30 am here and i just woke up to eat a something and to go back to sleep !
ill try to find some more examples if your interested in them.
edit on 17/5/2013 by Hombre because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 17 2013 @ 06:47 PM
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and one personal question:



Ah, heaven! Paradise! What impressions of heaven do you have? What do you think it will be like?


Where does this idea (to write about paradise) come from ? I mean have you readed some book, website,paper or ?
edit on 17/5/2013 by Hombre because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 17 2013 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by windword
 


Where there is wealth, there is war. I don't want anything to with money in my next life. Unfortunately, I'm forced to use it in this one.


I don't want to be a slave to survival, locked in a rat race routine. Like in this this life, in the next, I will still have no control over issues of war and inequity. What I want in this life and the next is the freedom to pursue happiness. I want to learn about everything, I want to travel and learn about other people and cultures. If I'm to be reincarnated, I want the freedom that wealth and health can offer to pursue those happy things.



posted on May, 17 2013 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by windword
 


Where there is wealth, there is war. I don't want anything to with money in my next life. Unfortunately, I'm forced to use it in this one.


I don't want to be a slave to survival, locked in a rat race routine. Like in this this life, in the next, I will still have no control over issues of war and inequity. What I want in this life and the next is the freedom to pursue happiness. I want to learn about everything, I want to travel and learn about other people and cultures. If I'm to be reincarnated, I want the freedom that wealth and health can offer to pursue those happy things.


Thinking you are living in a developed country no need to idea spring where the well is to be dug (cannot even imagine the terror of no water on open plains if Id planned to be a farmer). So, in that, we are not slaves to survival, but slaves to something more insidious (the information age). War and inequity are for some reason decades behind our times yet stick to us, like BAD HANGERONS leftover from 60-200 years ago. These are overlays of paradyms, they are models of behavior/thoughtforms years in making still trying to sway or attempt another freefall/failure of the human modern. Its cheesy and ridiculous. At least we have the ability to learn and grow from what technology allows now. Everyone deserves the freeform desire of wealth, health and pursute of happiness. What thwarts this process? As I see it perpetual distraction from the thought "WHO AM I, WHERE IS MY CREATOR, and WHAT DO I DO NOW". This is rhetorical no need to answer.



posted on May, 18 2013 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Observationalist
 


God created us to be passionate to explore to be scientist and doctors, able to study and learn. In heaven we will be able to do all we do now and more. The limits that fear has on humanity will be lifted.


Will we be able to fail? Or, will everything we touch, think, or build be pure gold every time. If pure gold every time, what would be the point? Ever see the Twilight Zone episode where a man dies and finds he can't lose at anything. He wins all the time. He comments that heaven isn't what he thought it would be, and his mentor remarks, "What makes you think you're in heaven?"



That's funny, I didn't watch many Twilight Zones but that's one I do remember seeing. That's a good example of some of the dilemmas with the concept of a perfect paradise.

We obviously don't handle failure in this world very well, lots of tears and sorrow, but because there will be no tears or sorrow doesn't mean there won't be failure. It might mean we will be able to deal with it properly.

I don't know Jig, I'm beginning to get too far into speculating, probably bordering on sacrilege. In my life and my experience with God in the bible I don't see a sadistic God who is interested in robots who make gold when they pee. I see a loving God who equipped his creation for a deliberate plan and purpose for life and love. Heaven won't be a second chance, or a re-do. It will be something our earthly minds can't fathom. Its fun to imagine, but all in all you have to have faith that God has good plan for eternity, if you don't think God has a good plan for us in earth, then you will have a negative view of heaven.
edit on 18-5-2013 by Observationalist because: Capitialization



posted on May, 18 2013 @ 02:27 PM
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reply to post by Observationalist
 





if you don't think God has a good plan for us in earth, then you will have a negative view of heaven.


Nice post, Obs. But this isn't a question of plans or positive/negative views on heaven. It's merely a matter of dissecting the 'common' belief of what heaven is.

I would venture to say that most people haven't thought too deeply about it. They see people in human form reuniting with friends and family. And, that's about it. Maybe they call up quick images of perfect skies, green mountains, crystal clear water, and everyone wearing a smile and flowing robes. This sounds a lot like earth, only without the persistent smile. A quick image may seem heavenly, but try to imagine further and there's nothing more. This wouldn't be heaven to me.



posted on May, 18 2013 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Jiggerj: Greetings.
Great question man. This is my first comment ever on ATS anyway, so here it is. I'm very interested in "heaven" and have been for a long time. Firstly THERE IS NOTHING TO BE AFRAID OF. Where ever heaven is its going to be wonderful. I'ts going to be a full upgrade to the conditions we are living in now :-) I believe that we will have no phsyical bodys in heaven but we will be in full control of our environments with our minds, ie: if you want to poop then your mind can make it real for you. There ARE no limits to human imagination and we were made that way for a reason and that reason is to experience boundless reality with no regard to consequenses whatsoever. without the constraints of a phsyical body to weigh us down there will no longer be the experience of pain or sickness or death which are all conditions tied up with our temporary bodies. As for the where is heaven part: after you die you will be given the freedom to explore all the wonders and the mysteries of the universe planet by planet travelling at the speed of thought and if that wasnt enough your mind can take you to other dimentions including travelling into the linear past or fulture. You may innitiate any change imaginable in the past but it will NOT effect the future since when you leave the past you disconnect from it NOT drag it back with you. The most IMPORTANT element in heaven is the ability to experience LOVE deep in your heart. LOVE is the overiding emotion in the life to come. The being we know at the moment as God will fill us with love by revealing to us His glory and plan. There is NO human alive past, present or future who will not one day know the love of God no matter what the sceptics say.

You may experience pain, injustice and suffering in this world but know there is a greater good thought we cant see it right now and this condition is temporary and fleeting. DO NOT BE AFRAID. Here is a motto to live by LIVE, LAUGH. LOVE and give as much to others as you can with genuine generosity. Here is one more tip: talk to God He is your friend and our destinies as HUMANS are more glorious than you or I can fully imagine. Have faith in goodness. Goodness always kicks evils ass.

Hey I enjoyed replying. Good topic. Finding security in who we are as humans is the first step toward killing all the lies with the truth.

last comment: our enemy the Devil is out to propogate fear and is good at his job but the truth is the devil is a lier. It is said you have to hear the truth 5 times before you believe it but you will believe a lie after hearing it only once. THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE. YOU ARE LOVED AND THERE IS A GOOD PLAN FOR YOUR LIFE HERE IN PARADISE WHICH WILL END IN YOUR ABSOLUTE LIBERTY IN HEAVEN, no matter what the sceptics say.

cheers,



posted on May, 18 2013 @ 04:21 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Akragon
 





Some how I imagine a trial or something at some point, which is our judgement... in which we experience everything bad we've done to others within this incarnation... More tears!


Wouldn't this happen before entering heaven? That's my take on it anyway.


There will be a trial and it will be after God comes back down to earth to save the human race from self inflicted extinction BUT it is not for humans. The trial will be for the devil who will be judged for every crime ever committed by the human race and destroyed. HUMANS will then be shown the full glory and will of God and they will inherit the universe and eternal life. There is nothing more and nothing less.



posted on May, 18 2013 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


If you are giving points for "thinking about heaven" the can I have some please? I agree people just spew out the same old cliche's. white clouds, harps, re-uniting with family, ect. The truth is that these stories break down when you start with the obvious questions.

I believe we all carry heaven with us inside to a degree some more than others but the true potential/ realisation of heaven cannot be experienced while still in the phsyical body. Same with ALL answers in life to science: untill we leave these temporary phsyical bodies we are incapable of wrapping our interlects around the why's and the how's but we must find the truth and cultivate faith in goodness.

Great topic, thanks.



posted on May, 18 2013 @ 08:59 PM
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reply to post by HD3DSURROUNDSOUND
 


Nice post, HD. Just a few comments:




after you die you will be given the freedom to explore all the wonders and the mysteries of the universe planet by planet travelling at the speed of thought and if that wasnt enough your mind can take you to other dimentions including travelling into the linear past or fulture.


If we have to explore all the wonders and mysteries, then all of the secrets god holds will not be revealed to us the moment we die. If we are not privy to all knowledge then we will still be in a state of imperfection and can make mistakes. That doesn't sound like heaven to me.




our enemy the Devil is out to propogate fear and is good at his job but the truth is the devil is a lier.


You say that when we die we will not have bodies, but can manipulate our environment with our minds. Wouldn't the devil be in this same state? What walls could prevent him from infecting us with his lies even after death, even while we're in heaven?
edit on 5/18/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 18 2013 @ 09:11 PM
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reply to post by HD3DSURROUNDSOUND
 





You may innitiate any change imaginable in the past but it will NOT effect the future since when you leave the past you disconnect from it NOT drag it back with you.


LOL What would be the point?



posted on May, 18 2013 @ 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by HD3DSURROUNDSOUND
reply to post by jiggerj
 


If you are giving points for "thinking about heaven" the can I have some please? I agree people just spew out the same old cliche's. white clouds, harps, re-uniting with family, ect. The truth is that these stories break down when you start with the obvious questions.

I believe we all carry heaven with us inside to a degree some more than others but the true potential/ realisation of heaven cannot be experienced while still in the phsyical body. Same with ALL answers in life to science: untill we leave these temporary phsyical bodies we are incapable of wrapping our interlects around the why's and the how's but we must find the truth and cultivate faith in goodness.

Great topic, thanks.


All very true. While alive we can't figure out what would be logical in our beliefs of what heaven would be like, but rather, we can dispel the illogical beliefs. Like you say, we probably won't have physical bodies, but many in Islam believe that they will not only have bodies, but will have sex with the virgins that allah keeps locked up for them. That's like, illogical to the Nth degree.



posted on May, 18 2013 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by HD3DSURROUNDSOUND
reply to post by jiggerj
 


If you are giving points for "thinking about heaven" the can I have some please? I agree people just spew out the same old cliche's. white clouds, harps, re-uniting with family, ect. The truth is that these stories break down when you start with the obvious questions.
I believe we all carry heaven with us inside to a degree some more than others but the true potential/ realisation of heaven cannot be experienced while still in the phsyical body. Same with ALL answers in life to science: untill we leave these temporary phsyical bodies we are incapable of wrapping our interlects around the why's and the how's but we must find the truth and cultivate faith in goodness.Great topic, thanks.


Thinking about a heaven is as valid as "wanting to go home", to our place non-physical as that is the true reality. The 3rd dimension is a trial ground for spirits to test limited resources in gross body matter constructs. We all have the rememberance of our true beingness (in another place non-physical not only justified completely but super valid and to undertake this reality takes a brave soul/spirit). Its the body death conundrum. In the higher realms where form is not as solid there is no fear of the death and decay of the body, because it is a light body that never de-animates. These bodies we have now are merely vessels for instructive learning to progress us. I wonder if the whole idea of leaving the material world behind (or not attaching importance to it) is not at all regarding ones personal weath, gains, property, etc. but really only a metaphor for the physical body.



posted on May, 18 2013 @ 11:12 PM
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reply to post by Hombre
 





about negativity: its the art of hidden negativity, im not sure if you are aware of it, but some ppl are using negative wordings. like : "look what you have done wrong and never do it again." better is "look what you have done wrong and correct it" or "look what you have done right and continue !" thats the example which comes in my mind 1st. its 1:30 am here and i just woke up to eat a something and to go back to sleep ! ill try to find some more examples if your interested in them.


LOL That's a great observation!

But, I'm talking about human nature, as in the human animal. One cannot be positive or negative when stating that snakes eat their prey whole. It's just what snakes do. One cannot be positive or negative when stating the human animal's range of thoughts, feelings, and actions.

If I mention how history shows over and over that mankind is a warring species, it's not negative. It's just fact.



posted on May, 19 2013 @ 06:52 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


The point is I was trying to illustrate the idea that what is impossible for us to do here in this realm will be possible for us to do in the next realm since there are really no limitations to the imagination. I sometimes lie in bed at night and have dreams with vivid colour and sound and feelings of things I have never done in my waking state. In my dreams I have flown, composed symphonies, dated hot girls (lol), etc. In my dreams I am never hungry or thirsty or un comfortable. People without limbs have all their appendages while they are in the mind realm. True there is horror in dreams sometimes but it is horror without danger as in the mind there is no physical body to harm. Dreams are a good place to learn how to face certain fears. My point is that I personally cannot see a limit to what the human mind can imagine! Why were we made this way?

The devil was only allowed to exist for a short time as a TOOL to create free will also to provide humankind with valuable life experience (WISDOM) and to learn there is a difference between good and evil and that God is good. You and I are humans and will always be humans and that will NEVER change even in our altered states which means the experience of emotions will be in us eternally. To fear, to doubt, to hope, to love, everything! We will no longer suffer physically (unless you chose to with your mind) but then it still won’t be the same as there will be pain but no fear of the unknown as you already crossed over and the fear of death is gone because you have already died and are now on the other side. YOU WILL NEVER DIE AGAIN ONCE YOU HAVE LEFT YOUR BODY HENCE THE PHRASE ETERNAL LIFE, so there will no longer be ANYTHING TO BE AFRAID OF. NO FEAR OF DEATH OR DESTRUCTION OR PAIN ever only stability of the mind and serenity and peace. The concept of making a mistake here in this realm will not exist in the next realm as mistakes are measured in the levels of negative consequences they can generate while in the afterlife THERE ARE NO NEGETAVE CONSEQUENSES and cannot be as there is no more pain whatsoever or imprisonment of any kind. In the afterlife if you perceive you have made a mistake then so what, big deal, just dust yourself off and move along. You will certainly not be judged or punished for if. What punishment can you inflict on a free spirit?

I think like you do that the idea of 72 virgins is a croc of *#@! and when Muslims cross over there will be many wonders which will make them see that heaven is spiritual and not physical and they will soon realise the futility of that kind of thinking and press on for higher and more meaningful things. UNLIMITED is going to be the afterlife devoid of consequences. If you want it, it will be yours! If you can imagine it you can do it. The only concession is that while in this state of perpetual bliss you give thanks in your heart to the one who made it all possible: God. This is not a forced concession and the un-adherance to the concession is like everything in heaven without consequence but God does ask us to thank him from a grateful heart because he wants to be close to us, even now.

LIKE I said the best it to realise that you are going to a blissful amazing new place NOTE: the concept of hell is a lie to break man’s heart with fear. RISE above the lies! Truth is GOD who is more powerful than the devil wants you to ENJOY YOUR LIFE and have faith that one day you will inherit his kingdom which is heaven because at the end of the day we are ALL children for GOD. Who else would you want to be but a living offspring of the living God who created the universe and the imagination?

Satan will be COMPLETELY destroyed NOT imprisoned!

DO NOT FEAR ANYTHING IN THIS LIFE BUT TURN FEAR INTO REASON AND REASON INTO FAITH!

One day I'm going home wiser for having experienced physicality and full of joy. The point is we were not created for ourselves! God created us from dust to share eternal life with him so relax and enjoy. I believe we will never stop discovering the wonders of God's creation ever!



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 12:57 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Ok Jigger, I said to my self what would Jigger do. Total objectivity.

Lets remove all spiritual and preconceived dogma around heaven.
What do we get? A coping mechanism for death, pain and failures.

Death: we can't handle the loss of a loved one. We pretend their still alive in a better place, and some day we will see them again.
Pain: we can't handle seeing someone suffer, so we imagine that there is a place where there body is restored or they get a new body and is free of their suffering.
Failure: we loath not being able to perfect seething here on earth, so we imagine we can finally achieve our desires in heaven.

Reincarnation is a type of coping mechanism too: we get to try again.

I might say atheist cope by removing any accountability: life just ends, I did the best I could.

The Muslim heaven is more of a motivation than coping.

So, It looks like in order to break the illusion of heaven we need to break the illusion of an after life.

How's that for being objective ?

Now, why are we not equipped to handle death if it is just a part of life?
Why can't we process pain better if its just survival of the fittest?
Why do we expect perfection when we never have seen it?



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 01:06 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


This is what I think about Heaven and Hell. This is what I look forward too.

We each have one life and many decisions to make. We suffer through our decisions and the decisions of others. However I believe this is hell; this is the place we suffer for our sins. We trap ourselves in a mental state of hell/depression as we fall further away from love and truth.

But I believe it is possible to pursue love to the point where love becomes your addiction. When love becomes your addiction you can pursue it almost perfectly. To pursue love perfectly would be to be without sin. This is our challenge, we get as far as we get in this life.

After this life I believe the physical and all things that cause sin become no more. And thus all of us come together in love. What that means exactly I do not know. But I believe this is about as close of a description to heaven and hell as I can give.



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 04:12 AM
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reply to post by Observationalist
 





Now, why are we not equipped to handle death if it is just a part of life?


Another awesome post, Obs. You write so well!

Why are we not equipped to handle death? I've lost two daughters, one of two sisters, and my only brother. I'm not freaking out because they no longer exist. Maybe it's because I know that we are all here for such a short time and that very soon I will no longer exist.

Sure, I miss them in this life, but I don't need a make-believe story of an afterlife to feel comforted in any way.
edit on 5/22/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2013 @ 04:26 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 





After this life I believe the physical and all things that cause sin become no more. And thus all of us come together in love. What that means exactly I do not know.


What you did was make the afterlife vague, and that's right! For anyone to say they KNOW what the afterlife would be like is just downright lying.





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