the real IRS scandle

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posted on May, 14 2013 @ 04:05 PM
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alot of people think the IRS scandle is about "unfair" investigations into Tea Party Groups,

its not, the real scandle is that groups that want to engage in political enterprises are attempting to EXPLOIT a tax loop hole.

tax exempt status was designed so that groups who provide a social function for their community can do more with the funds they gather.

not so that one political group can avoid paying taxes, and push that burden onto other groups in the society.
when people rout this system to "hide" tax liability, (ironic i know) they are taking tax money from community projects that actually benefit the community, and spending those tax free funds on political campaigns.

THERE IS NO PUBLIC BENFIT.
these people are subverting the meaning of social good to promote their political friends.

so you will pay higher taxes so that some people can try to overtake the political opposition who position or policies are disliked.

this was not and is not what the tax exempt status was designed for

why should REAL social good groups get less money so that some people can push a political agenda?
why should FAKE social groups get tax exempt status so that they can use the money on their own personal agenda?

if the idea was to help communities, how does this jive with groups using their money and tax free status to push for their own political aims?

so IMHO the real scandal is that these groups are taking money as tax free donations and spending the money (tax free) on politics.

should any group with tea party in their name get special investigations on how they benefit the community?
yes
should ANY GROUP with a political sounding name be under increased scrutiny when applying for tax exempt status?
YES

should political parties and their proxies get tax free money to subvert the political process?
NO

so in my opinion the fact that millions of dollars that would normally benefit the community is going to individuals for political purposes for the benifit of a tiny minority shows that the real scandle is about tax.

but its about a group that wants to exploit a tax loop hole to get political power to further expand tax loop holes for that same small minority.

how does that qualify as a social good?

xploder




posted on May, 14 2013 @ 04:12 PM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 


Thought provoking comments. In principle I totally agree.
I would like The IRS to "open up the books" on the tax treatment and show what kind of groups are using it. It's very hard to get a fix on what's happening without seeing the whole context.



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 04:34 PM
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The only IRS "scandal" is the problem was known as far back as 2010 but it was just released (leaked?) at a time when it was beneficial for the administration.

The whole IRS story was put out there to pull people's attention away from the Bengali investigation because the administration is in over their heads and the truth has come out and there should be hell to pay unless they can derail the whole process or at least make people focus elsewhere.

Some may argue that it wasn't a huge deal because only 4 people died and we lose many more than that all the time and I guess there is some rational to that. (unless your one of the families of a murdered person)

The problem was they knew it was a terrorist attack from the start and lied about it because it could have hurt his re-election,

They lied about the guys video being the cause of the "protest" for weeks when they knew that was not true.

They knew the attack was coming but failed to make proper security arrangements.

They ordered troops who could have helped to "stand down" and not go in.

They told lie after lie after lie to the American people just to save their own careers.

Now their caught in their lies and want you to look the other way.........

HEY. Look over there.......The IRS is being bad........pay attention to them!!!



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 04:42 PM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 


Would you feel the same way about OWS? They were granted tax-exempt status as well, yet they were not investigated by the IRS.



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by XPLodER
 


Would you feel the same way about OWS? They were granted tax-exempt status as well, yet they were not investigated by the IRS.


i would EXPECT them to be investigated completely and under the exact same scrutiny,
and they were investigated before they were granted the exemption.
remember OWS has no political party, no affiliation with a political party,
does not run adds for candidates and was NOT for or against any specific party

they were against banks,
one reason for their acceptance for tax exempt status was they were feeding the community,
setting up community gardens and the rolling jubilee.

how does the carl rove super pack benefit the community?
and that should be the gauge of the legislation,
who benefits?

the community or a political agenda?

xploder



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by InverseLookingGlass
reply to post by XPLodER
 


Thought provoking comments. In principle I totally agree.
I would like The IRS to "open up the books" on the tax treatment and show what kind of groups are using it. It's very hard to get a fix on what's happening without seeing the whole context.


very good point,
i wonder how many "super pacs" were exploiting this loop hole and how much they "funnelled" away from illegitimate non profits.

this has all come about because of citizens united,
the worst decision i have ever read.

xploder



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 05:06 PM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 


OWS represented a specific fraction of the population.

They are as self-serving as any other political organization.

Yet only one specific ideology was the target of the government.



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by XPLodER
 


OWS represented a specific fraction of the population.

the 99%?


They are as self-serving as any other political organization.

except thats not the case, they feed people. they clothed people, they "give away" all the money collected to BENEFIT the community, not one political group


Yet only one specific ideology was the target of the government.


ummmmmmm
you do remember a federal "crack down" on occupy?
you know the guys with battons who illegally evicted people and illegally imprisoned them without charges?

you do realise the exact same thing happened a few years ago when left leaning orgs were investigated under bush?

it should be the same rules for everyone IMHO

xploder



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by XPLodER


it should be the same rules for everyone IMHO

xploder


That, I can agree with.



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 


Citizens United leveled the playing field between conservative groups who collect money for the propagation of conservative candidates and the UNION BOSSES WHO FORCED UNION MEMBERS TO CONTRIBUTE FUNDS TO PUT LEFTIST POLITICIANS IN OFFICE!

I know because I was forced to put money into SEIU because I worked as a registered nurse. I am no longer funding leftist politicians due to the citizens united decision - to which I am very grateful.

This is just an angry democrat/union trying to whine to the masses - big money has always been funneled into elections - union money being the biggest.

HA! Go fund your own communist utopia yourself. Not with my money.



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 05:31 PM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 



so you will pay higher taxes so that some people can try to overtake the political opposition who position or policies are disliked.

Tax exempt organizations have absolutely no bearing on what taxes you pay individually or on how much other businesses pay!





when people rout this system to "hide" tax liability, (ironic i know) they are taking tax money from community projects that actually benefit the community, and spending those tax free funds on political campaigns.

Only a liberal can equate “not making someone pay taxes” with “taking away money from others”.




Ridiculous! It’s not “others” money…it’s the company’s money and if that company jumped through all the hoops necessary to secure a 501c status then they’ve qualified.

The IRS and Justice Department are not hit squads for this administration.



the 99%?


Give me a break! OWS didn't represent 99%. Must we go there again?



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 05:38 PM
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i knew tempers would get heated, but please do not name call, i am not a socialist.


Citizens United leveled the playing field between conservative groups who collect money for the propagation of conservative candidates and the UNION BOSSES WHO FORCED UNION MEMBERS TO CONTRIBUTE FUNDS TO PUT LEFTIST POLITICIANS IN OFFICE!


the jump in super pac spending clearly shows the impact of unlimited campaign spending on elections,
not good from anyone's point of veiw as the richest will always win......that is not democratic


I know because I was forced to put money into SEIU because I worked as a registered nurse. I am no longer funding leftist politicians due to the citizens united decision - to which I am very grateful.


i feel for ya, i really do. but two wrongs dont make a right.
ie
if you were treated badly that should not entitle you to treat others badly


This is just an angry democrat/union trying to whine to the masses - big money has always been funneled into elections - union money being the biggest.

actually im not a democrat, or a republican.

big money from any source should not pervert your electoral system IMHO


HA! Go fund your own communist utopia yourself. Not with my money.


actually if you look at it the super pacs not paying taxes actually increases YOUR tax burden.

ironic isnt it?

xploder



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 05:49 PM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 


TEA Party: TAXED ENOUGH ALREADY Party.... TEA.

There's no public benefit to a group standing up, en masse, double fisting a collective pair of middle fingers into the IRS' face and shouting "Sit on it! We're overtaxed as a nation"? Seriously?

Excuse me while I check myself out of the public, then. Clearly I was mistaken to believe that the public was, as a group, sick of being robbed by the IRS everytime they turn around.

I don't get actual tax payers who are satisifed with this broken system. I can understand the 47% who are getting a net free ride being satisifed because, hell, they're getting a free ride. Those who are part of the rest of us, working AND paying, watching the fruits of our labor being stolen from us and our families to be redistributed, involuntarily feeding the war machine, the nation, and the world... where's the collective outrage? Is it absent because of brainwashing? Stockholm syndrome? Dissociative disorder? What in the heck is it that makes otherwise sane individuals not flip a gasket over being the victims of theft?



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 05:52 PM
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hi seabag



Tax exempt organizations have absolutely no bearing on what taxes you pay individually or on how much other businesses pay!


when money that is "circulating" in a community, it is taxed every time its used,
ie
if you spent 10$ and bought an item it is taxed, when the shop owner makes a profit from selling you an item,
it is taxed, when the shop keeper pays his staff for selling you the item he is taxed.

if instead you give that money to a tax free super pac it is not taxed as it is received.
where does the lack of taxable income come from when you instead spend your 10$ on a political donation to a super pac?
you see it causes a cascade of lost taxes that show up on the books as a "deficit" in the budget.



Only a liberal can equate “not making someone pay taxes” with “taking away money from others”.

no need for name calling, i actually study economics for fun,

so if 2 billion dollars was taken out of circulation and placed in a tax exempt super pac, non of that money goes to the government to pay for stuff like roads because it is untaxable.
because the tax revinue is lower there are less roads being fixed ect,
this either means more taxes or less new roads or simply more pot holes.

remeber i did not set up this system it was here before i was born,
i am just trying to explain the "knock on effects" so that you can understand that the money to repair roads has to come from some where.


Ridiculous! It’s not “others” money…it’s the company’s money and if that company jumped through all the hoops necessary to secure a 501c status then they’ve qualified.


so you would have no problems with me setting up a political party called OWS and taking tax free donations to promote my idea of what a good government looks like?
even if this means my money is not taxed and your roads dont get fixed?


The IRS and Justice Department are not hit squads for this administration.

i agree, but subverting the tax free loop hole for politicking is a dangerous thing to do



Give me a break! OWS didn't represent 99%. Must we go there again?



well if its ok for carl rove why not OWS?
im glad to see you have your sense of humour back


xploder



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by burdman30ott6
reply to post by XPLodER
 


TEA Party: TAXED ENOUGH ALREADY Party.... TEA.

There's no public benefit to a group standing up, en masse, double fisting a collective pair of middle fingers into the IRS' face and shouting "Sit on it! We're overtaxed as a nation"? Seriously?

Excuse me while I check myself out of the public, then. Clearly I was mistaken to believe that the public was, as a group, sick of being robbed by the IRS everytime they turn around.

I don't get actual tax payers who are satisifed with this broken system. I can understand the 47% who are getting a net free ride being satisifed because, hell, they're getting a free ride. Those who are part of the rest of us, working AND paying, watching the fruits of our labor being stolen from us and our families to be redistributed, involuntarily feeding the war machine, the nation, and the world... where's the collective outrage? Is it absent because of brainwashing? Stockholm syndrome? Dissociative disorder? What in the heck is it that makes otherwise sane individuals not flip a gasket over being the victims of theft?


while i feel for ya,
TAXED enough ALREADY
is about you as a PERSON being taxed enough as it is,
when big corporations can pay zero taxes while under employing people,
your taxes will always rise.

why do big corps get to offshore money while the small business owner has to pay?

imagine what would happen to any country where 100% of profit was off shored?
if everybody "avoided" taxes ?

23 trillion hidden in offshore accounts in tax havens?
12% taxes for corps and 30% taxes for everyone else?

you are paying their share of the tax burden !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

xploder



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 06:05 PM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 



you see it causes a cascade of lost taxes that show up on the books as a "deficit" in the budget.

You can’t consider something you NEVER HAD a LOSS!





so if 2 billion dollars was taken out of circulation and placed in a tax exempt super pac, non of that money goes to the government to pay for stuff like roads because it is untaxable.

It’s not out of circulation! That is a complete mischaracterization. That money gets spent on advertising, salaries, conventions, buildings, office supplies and all of the other things businesses spend money on. I own a non-profit corporation (technically there is no "owner" in a non-profit but I'm the founder and managing member) and I can tell you we spend all of our money in the communities we do business in.




so you would have no problems with me setting up a political party called OWS and taking tax free donations to promote my idea of what a good government looks like?
even if this means my money is not taxed and your roads dont get fixed?

I don’t set the criteria! If you qualify (it’s very time consuming and difficult to qualify) then who am I to stop you?


edit on 14-5-2013 by seabag because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 06:10 PM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 


You forgot to mention A.C.O.R.N. another liberal shill? Why be so one sided .I bet you never said or wrote a thread on that subject.
This two party system you have yourself aligned to is the problem. I believe we are looking for a solution.
Put the blame where the blame is due and just admit they all have to go.



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 06:16 PM
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You can’t consider something you NEVER HAD a LOSS!

someone some where will have to pay, or your roads will be in ruins.
who ever ends up paying has lost something, if you cant use your roads you have also lost something.


It’s not out of circulation! That is a complete mischaracterization. That money gets spent on advertising, salaries, conventions, buildings, office supplies and all of the other things businesses spend money on.

yes your correct that it gets spent,
but instead of being spent helping the community (tax exempt is for the public benefit) it is spent in the private interest of a political objective for the personal benefit of a candidate.
they are not the same.


I own a non-profit corporation…we spend all of our money in the communities we do business in.

i applaud you for doing whats right




I don’t set the criteria! If you qualify (it’s very time consuming and difficult to qualify) then who am I to stop you?


even if i use the money i saved in taxes to post,
"tea parties are for little girls" posters everywhere? lol


dont you see it becomes the person with the most money will win,
not the guy or gal with the best vision for the future.

xploder



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by Diisenchanted
reply to post by XPLodER
 


You forgot to mention A.C.O.R.N. another liberal shill? Why be so one sided .I bet you never said or wrote a thread on that subject.
This two party system you have yourself aligned to is the problem. I believe we are looking for a solution.
Put the blame where the blame is due and just admit they all have to go.


i dont buy into the two party system,
i am not a democrat,
i dislike how both parties operate,
i agree that they are all to blame,

xploder



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by XPLodER
TAXED enough ALREADY
is about you as a PERSON being taxed enough as it is,
when big corporations can pay zero taxes while under employing people,
your taxes will always rise.

why do big corps get to offshore money while the small business owner has to pay?

imagine what would happen to any country where 100% of profit was off shored?
if everybody "avoided" taxes ?

23 trillion hidden in offshore accounts in tax havens?
12% taxes for corps and 30% taxes for everyone else?


OK, fair enough... but what in the blue hell does that have to do with your initial ascertation that the TEA Party provides no benefit to the avergae tax payer and fails to meet the criteria you're pushing as being needed to qualify as a tax exempt group?

Listen man (and don't take this as a hit because it is just an observation) there are some clear cut indication of personal bias and the agenda you're wroking in your posts in this thread.
1. Rail against the TEA Party, but swift to defend Occupy Wall Street.
2. Attempt to divert the conversation away from the legitimacy of personal tax burdens and refocus on larger, more populist targets like (deep, menacing voice) CORPORATE AMERICA and CONSERVATIVE PACS. (Kinda surprised you haven't hammered home a cursory Koch Bros. indictment yet)
3. You are completely ambivalent to any rip against a non-Conservative tax free entity... quickly redirecting the conversation with an empathetic "I feel for you, but..." followed by clear indications that you're providing lip service but certainly want the focused outrage to remain solely on the Conservative groups.

I'd argue that your OP is biased.





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