What is going on?

With modern research in the field of psychology the idea of temptation or evil seem to be explained as reactions in the mind. One could say that we all try and make the right choice, it is the definition of what is right or wrong that changes depended on the different perspectives of different individuals.

This being said we should have a different out look on people being judged either for a capitol offense or some other reason. We should understand that more often than not a person who commits acts we deem malicious as a society is ill or not in their correct brain balance.

Knowing this should make "victims" of tragic events or acts aware that the problem is not the "ak-47 toting teen" but what drives that teen to massacre people. The real problem is that we have a crisis in this country. We have super intelligent kids growing up in a vile and cruel world, a world without much of a future. They have been raised to be honorable when honor seems dead.

They are gentle folk whose lives have been nothing but fear and pain. These are societies enemies, the terrorist and criminals and rapists and murderers. They started out like the rest of us and somewhere along the way they got dealt a bad hand. Most of us would commit the same actions if we were in their shoes and their minds. Lets relearn to forgive and try to understand.

Sorry for text block.

No thoughts?

"Super intelligent kids"? I beg to differ.

"We would do the same if we would be in their shoes"? I really, really beg to differ.

The first one is open to discussion, as "super" is ill-defined.
The second one - no. Just no. If you think so, you should think about the reasons WHY you could imagine killing innocents.

Originally posted by ManFromEurope
"Super intelligent kids"? I beg to differ.

"We would do the same if we would be in their shoes"? I really, really beg to differ.

The first one is open to discussion, as "super" is ill-defined.
The second one - no. Just no. If you think so, you should think about the reasons WHY you could imagine killing innocents.

If you are from a place where innocents are killed all the time it will seem normal. Or if in your mind this place seems evil and you kill to relieve people in pain, if there is an afterlife killing and death completely change their meanings.

What if a bump on the head turned you into a rapist. Lets say as a result of a head trauma or mental abuse you would get urges that drove you to the point of harming someone and have no way of restraining yourself.
You get arrested and they find you have brain damage and work to fix it.
Or they send you to jail and make the mental injury worse... get what I am saying.

reply to post by raj10463


Hi raj....I get what you are saying.
There are reasons behind peoples' behaviour. Multitudes of reasons....
But most people don't care to understand the reasons...they only care to judge the behaviour.
I could write a huge post with examples...my own personal reasoning and examples...but it won't matter to most.
I just wanted you to know that someone besides you gets it.
Thank you for being a conscious being.
jacygirl

Originally posted by jacygirl
reply to post by raj10463

 

Hi raj....I get what you are saying.
There are reasons behind peoples' behaviour. Multitudes of reasons....
But most people don't care to understand the reasons...they only care to judge the behaviour.
I could write a huge post with examples...my own personal reasoning and examples...but it won't matter to most.
I just wanted you to know that someone besides you gets it.
Thank you for being a conscious being.
jacygirl

We should write a book.

reply to post by raj10463


Yes we should. I do write....always wanted to write a book...
Sadly though....judging by the responses to your thread thus far....would it do any good? (lol)
jacygirl

The problem we run into with your line of reasoning though is the obvious one, it is not an uncontrollable reaction to stimuli, as many folks have the same problems and don't do evil deeds.

It is one persons weakness that let's them rationalise their evil ways because X happened to them.

Use myself as an example, according to all the factors I should be a criminal drug addicted abusive sob, that society long ago locked away to keep them safe from the likes of me.

I come from a broken alcohol induced violent and abusive home, with a distant nonsupportive mother who couldn't be bothered to ever even give a crap about wether we got to eat or not, as long as her boyfriends got what they wanted, my father the principle abuser, when he wasn't gone or drinking, was a nonstop ahole abuse monger, both physically and emotionally.

At one point, I had to steal to feed myself and my little brother for almost 2 years before our mother finally abandoned us and her friend took care of us for a few months reprieve from our dismal existance.....

I have to this day at the ripe old age of 35 still never been in any trouble, I seldom drink, though I do enjoy a beer somtimes, and I don't do any illegal drugs, nor do I take any medications, not even aspirin.

I have 3 kids that have never known hunger, and I would say, though I am not the best parent, or well adjusted member of society, but I do alright, my kids love me, I do my best to show them the love they deserve, but still have issues with trust and showing my feelings.

The emotional scars I carry from my childhood will never disapear, but I will never be one of the same kind of people that use such past harms to justify their present and future evil acts.

They still knew their actions were wrong, they just decided what they wanted was more important than everyone else, which is not aceptable behavior, and they know it, they just don't care.

Please don't try to justify the evil of others by their tragic upbringings, mine was plenty terrible, I am just not pathetic enough to use it as a crutch to justify my messed up actions.

Everyone knows right from wrong, save a very small fraction of mentally impaired folks, a few thousands in the entire world, all others know full well what they are doing is wrong, they just decide their wants are more important than others lives and welbeing.

Originally posted by raj10463

This being said we should have a different out look on people being judged either for a capitol offense or some other reason. We should understand that more often than not a person who commits acts we deem malicious as a society is ill or not in their correct brain balance.

By that standard are you saying that once a crime has been committed, we should not lock them up? Just try to understand why they are the way they are?

Knowing this should make "victims" of tragic events or acts aware that the problem is not the "ak-47 toting teen" but what drives that teen to massacre people. The real problem is that we have a crisis in this country. We have super intelligent kids growing up in a vile and cruel world, a world without much of a future. They have been raised to be honorable when honor seems dead.

I don't understand that last sentence. Those that shot up Columbine and Newtown (amongst others) by all accounts came from good homes with all their basic needs fulfilled. The facts are the facts, they were wired wrong and there was little any one could do about it until after they committed their acts. Many thought, "It is just a phase they're going through."

They are gentle folk whose lives have been nothing but fear and pain. These are societies enemies, the terrorist and criminals and rapists and murderers. They started out like the rest of us and somewhere along the way they got dealt a bad hand. Most of us would commit the same actions if we were in their shoes and their minds. Lets relearn to forgive and try to understand.

edit on 14-5-2013 by raj10463 because: (no reason given)

The terrorist and criminals and rapists and murderers are not gentle folk and to be truthful, I don't care about the "bad" hand they've been dealt in life. We've ALL been dealt bad hands at points in our lives, but the vast majority of us do not go around killing and raping. It is the actions of people that matter to me, not words.

I just do not understand this thread I guess. But to me you are advocating the lack of responsibility for pretty much everybody. We have enough of that going on as it is. People should be held accountable for their actions.

reply to post by inverslyproportional


Lovely sentiments....but I beg to differ.
Everyone knows right from wrong? Really?
Everyone has a different version of what is right or wrong.
Children learn what they live...a large majority perpetuate things like....racial intolerance, abuse, alcohol/drugs...even emotional scarring. A lot of people are brainwashed to hate.
But no two people on earth live exactly the same existence. Siblings from an abusive home will have somewhat different perspectives of the abuse...and can also go in different life directions once they are older.
Some people believe that they turned out ok, so everyone should just quit whining and do the right thing.
What exactly is that right thing?
Absolutely every second of life....every encounter with another person...every random event that happens in a day...happens exclusively to that one individual. How a person deals with everything is due to all of their own personal experiences.
There are always reasons why a person is the way they are...why they do the things they do.
jacygirl

reply to post by TDawgRex


I couldn't agree more, people have been getting the shaft forever, and yet most are good folks, it is only the few evil types that put themselves above others that think their particular tear fest is a good reason for doing bad things.

They are punished accoringly, and seperated from society at large, and placed in a population of like minded losers, so they can prey on eachother, not on us all.

reply to post by jacygirl


I would think it obvious that your perspective is wrong, I was taught cruelty and dispair, I dispense neither in life.

Children are not solely the result of their experiences, this is a known fact, which is why people from good homes do bad things, and people from bad homes do good things.

It is all on an individual, every single time, in every single situation.

Save the exception I already mentioned, of the few that are truly just not right.

By your logic hitler should have been set on a pedastal to be understood, not vilified for his evil deeds.

You should read on criminal psychology, and talk to a few psychologists, the individual always has a choice, and it boils down to making the right or wrong ones.

A young man growing up in the ghetto around gang bangers and drug dealing murderers isn't any more likely to be a killer because of this, they make the choice to become that person.

They don't have to sell drugs, they decide to do so.

They don't have to kill rival gang members, they decide to pick up the gun, they decide to point it, they decide to squeeze the trigger.

At any time they could have gotten a job instead of selling drugs, they could have used the money from the job to move away from the gang environment they are in. They wouldn't even have the opportunity to shoot said rival gang member if they chose to leave the environment.

You do see these were all several bad choices they made resulting in them becoming a killer right?

I have shown easily how they could have made choices that would not have led to them being on death row for murder.

They chose to do the opposite, they deserve their punishment for it.

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
reply to post by jacygirl

 

I would think it obvious that your perspective is wrong, I was taught cruelty and dispair, I dispense neither in life.
(That YOU are aware of).
Children are not solely the result of their experiences, this is a known fact, which is why people from good homes do bad things, and people from bad homes do good things.
(How can YOU be so sure they come from good homes...cuz the parents said so?)
It is all on an individual, every single time, in every single situation.
(And the limited options available at any given time).
Save the exception I already mentioned, of the few that are truly just not right.

By your logic hitler should have been set on a pedastal to be understood, not vilified for his evil deeds.
(My relatives were bombed/murdered by Hitler...in England...still want to understand WHY he was what he was though).
You should read on criminal psychology, and talk to a few psychologists, the individual always has a choice, and it boils down to making the right or wrong ones.
(YOU don't know what I've read/studied or spoken to. Choices are often limited for people).
A young man growing up in the ghetto around gang bangers and drug dealing murderers isn't any more likely to be a killer because of this, they make the choice to become that person.
(Again...choices are limited...I seriously don't believe that poor ghetto children WANT to perpetuate the nightmare they were born into).
They don't have to sell drugs, they decide to do so.
(Again....limited options...survival).
They don't have to kill rival gang members, they decide to pick up the gun, they decide to point it, they decide to squeeze the trigger.
(For some gang members, it's kill or be killed).
At any time they could have gotten a job instead of selling drugs, they could have used the money from the job to move away from the gang environment they are in. They wouldn't even have the opportunity to shoot said rival gang member if they chose to leave the environment.
(Yeah, cuz jobs are SO easy to get).
You do see these were all several bad choices they made resulting in them becoming a killer right?
(Bad choices. When you are drowning and someone throws you a rope...you don't always look to see what is attached to the other end).
I have shown easily how they could have made choices that would not have led to them being on death row for murder.
(And I have shown YOU that I disagree).
They chose to do the opposite, they deserve their punishment for it.

(What do YOU think that YOU....deserve?)
jacygirl

reply to post by jacygirl


The thing is, you are intentionally limiting people to their environment. I believe what IP is getting at is that individuals can change their environment if they so choose.

It’s the weak minded that say “I’ll never get out of this hole.” And do nothing to change it.

It’s the strong minded that crawl out and move on, remembering the lessons of their past.

You know the saying…Life isn’t fair.

We have more kids today with knowledge, not necessarily more intelligent kids. The reason that we are having problems is complex, with many things contributing to it. It is not just the kids that are getting irrational and spoiled, it is the adults.

I know some of the reasons, they fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. It seems that when our country took the control away from parents and made them fear punishing their children for the things they were doing wrong it contributed to this problem. Sure it helped the kids that were beaten for no reason, but it also made the people who legitimately spanked their kids for appropriate reasons not punish their kids properly. Good parents listened to the people saying don't spank your kids and their kids never got to experience what a spanking teaches you. The actions of say five percent of the population that abused their kids caused a problem with half of the kids in this country. We haven't even seen the whole effect of this yet, the worst part will be evolving in the near future.

On top of that, we are eating foods we never ate before. All foods are drugs. By altering the food chemistry in the diet, we alter the way the genes express themselves. This alters brain and body chemistry. We should get a craving to help to supply the antidote but we are taught to ignore cravings. Another problem is if our subconscious does not know the antidote, if we never tasted something we do not know what to crave. And of course, there is the fact that as we get a little crazy, crazy becomes our norm. This norm is a perpetual craving for more reinforcement of our beliefs. We start to hang around with others who believe as we do to get this reinforcement. All this is possible by dietary problems, eating foods that cause problems within our genetic makeup. A genetic makeup that is specific to a certain genetic line.

We ignore this when we put prisoners in jail, feeding the prisoners what we feel is adequate to sustain their life. Some people can not be correctly rehabilitated for this reason. One diet does not fit all. I study some of these genetic diseases, most are problems that a specific diet can make them never manifest. These are regulated by problems in the liver, problems in making proper enzymes and forming blood properly. This is well known in the medical industry but they choose to treat the symptoms and never address the problem. Many of these problems come from foods that they say are good for us today, the plants defense system against herbivores and microbes is being strengthened, this is causing much of the irrationality that is occurring. A mild form of porphyria in the AIP class.

Our ancestors spent a lot of effort to try to fix this problem so people could get along together and this effort was thrown aside in the attempt by people to gain prestige by discovering new things that may extend our life. We are going a little off on a big scale and nobody can even see it, they try to see what reinforces their beliefs. This is a big mess.

Some people eat the antidotes or companion foods and they keep normal. These people are not the ones running this society though, the ones running this thing are in LaLa land.

reply to post by TDawgRex


Hi...I'm not being deliberately obtuse. I realize that individuals do manage to crawl out and away from their negative environments.
However, this is about more than the odd individual...it is about huge populations of people living in poverty. I am speaking globally, not just about North America. People are born into families that scavenge through garbage for food. Born into slum neighborhoods where life is survival by any means. It is about people coping with an existence that they were born into...and geez, so sorry that they have no freaking clue how to get out and stay out.
You don't believe that family/environment has a huge influence?
Racial hatred is taught and learned...religious persecution taught and learned.
Job skills are also taught and learned. What if you're not allowed to go to school? NOT allowed?
Yes a few get out, but I care about all the others who are stuck behind.
jacygirl

Originally posted by inverslyproportional

To be honest, I see your post as ignorant,especially the latter part, sorry...

Every person is different. Every mind is wired differently. Human brain is extremely complicated biological "mechanism" and even with the technology we have, we do not understand it fully.

You might have had tough childhood, I feel sorry. No child deserves a childhood like that. I am happy for you coming over it although you must understand that everybody have different ways of dealing with it. There are millions of other factors that my influence your mindset. Maybe you were just "lucky" in the sense that you learned to deal with it at the right time and they did not because of having certain social skills stronger, meeting some role model for whatever reasn. Maybe your friends were different, better influence. Maybe your brain is just wired differently.There could be million other reasons why for them with seemingly also tough childhood the futures were different.Maybe they just saw ONE movie that changed their life, because identified so much with it. The problems might seem same from your perspective, although everybody has a different perspective, different reactions to seemingly same stimulis. Previous experience alters the reactions a lot. After all, we humans are creatures of habit. So anything could actually change them as persons.

Another thing that must be considered, is the fact that emotions are nothing else than chemical reactions in your mind. Being sad, angry, happy or calm is simply dependent on the chemical balance in your brain. We do not know exactly how much we can actually do to alter the balance. Mind-body connection is there, but currently it is more of a pseudoscience, than real one, as it is nearly impossible to prove it with current technology. Also we must admit that emotions are not only dependent on one certain chemical but the balance between all chemicals. Happyness is believed to be influenced by serotonin levels, although the thyroid hormones, hemoglobine levels, all kinds of things can actually alter the feeling.

There might be universal right/wrong in most cases, although everything is again dependent on other things and everybody sees them differently..When the emotions are very strong, it requires extreme mental effort (which again is affected by chemical balance) to come over it, in a way it can be said that it is like coming over very strong drug addiction, just mentally. Would you die for your beliefs? Most people wouldn´t. I have seen kids with terrible behavioural problems and unless you get their on time, it is nearly impossible to stop them. Unless one has learned anger management techniques and "catches" the anger in time, it is very hard to calm oneself down, when the anger unleashes. Same can be said about very strong addiction/habit. It is very-very hard to overcome the emotions. Even with strong cigarette addiction, not getting one´s cigarette for certain period is like suffering a mental torture for hours.

For everybody there is some trigger that might unleash emotions that are nearly uncontrollable. For some people it is very hard to push, for some easier. For most serial killers / shooters at some point the trigger was pushed and they can do nothing about it. There is so strong addiction-like feeling, fighting with that is suffering extreme mental torture.

We analysed the topic for a long time in psychology lectures. Even some series portray it quite well. It is interesting and at the same time horrifying. We do not know how much we actually can control ourselves, as we have never reached the critical points in our lives.

Everything happens for a reason.

I loved the sentence somebody said: Most people dont care to understand the reasons, they just care about judging the behaviour.

It is all empathy, trying to understand the reasons behind everything. That is the problems I see with you, inverselyproportional, you take everybody the same as you are, you seem to think, as I do something, everybody should think, act the same way. You do not even care to understand them, but judge because they are different from you, and you can not understand why. There is a Why for everything that happens.

reply to post by Cabin


Well said....I agree with what you wrote.
(And thank you....the sentence you quoted was mine, lol).
We will never get anywhere until we stop judging each other...using our own experiences/personality as a measure of right/wrong/normal.
Have a star....it's all I've got!
jacygirl