The Faith of Uncertainty.

reply to post by bb23108

discovering this truth (that we are awareness) is self-evident!

Ever since we started discussing these topics, you keep exclaiming that we are awareness (which, by the way, is a nominalization). Is "human" not a sufficient enough adjective for our type of being?

reply to post by AfterInfinity
I was specifically talking about Jesus' teachings when I made that point about the esoteric roots of Christianity.

And yes, the institution of western religion need to dominate the world with their views does not bode well for them nor mankind. Nor does the same approach taken by the institution of scientific-materialism bode well for mankind.

Only truth avails, not all this endless arguing between the so-called sacred and secular institutions that tend to only keep the other in place - ever debating, never resolving anything.

Mankind has been duped by both these exoteric institutions into getting further removed from any esoteric understanding of our reality.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Is "human" not a sufficient enough adjective for our type of being?

No, we are not simply the body-mind. The body-mind changes and dies, awareness never changes, and is always our experience, even in deep sleep when we are apparently unconscious.

That awareness survives death is to be discovered for oneself - it cannot be proven scientifically. However, that awareness even exists cannot be proven scientifically, so I wouldn't wait on science for this confirmation!

Who we are is self-evident and discoverable by anyone.

reply to post by bb23108

awareness never changes, and is always our experience,

Awareness changes when one loses sight, or hearing, or touch, smell, memory. These change with age.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Awareness changes when one loses sight, or hearing, or touch, smell, memory. These change with age.

The senses change with age, as do the functions of the mind - but not fundamental awareness.

You indicated at one point that you do extreme sports, so I am assuming you are significantly younger than me. I can say with no doubt that I have not felt any older in terms of awareness than when I was in my teens - many many moons ago; and I have noticed this since my twenties. Of course, this proves nothing and is probably completely meaningless to you, but it is self-evident to me and so matters more to me than anything else does.

Don't your self-evident convictions matter more to you than anything else you might believe?

reply to post by bb23108


I wouldn't call it meaningless if it means that much to you.

You're right in a sense. Verbs and adjectives cannot get old. Only the one who does them ages.

reply to post by bb23108

I was specifically talking about Jesus' teachings when I made that point about the esoteric roots of Christianity.

Doesn't matter. His teachings are not that rare, historically speaking. Pretty common, considering how exclusive his practices apparently are...I mean, Christianity acts like it owns the monopoly on so many traditions and symbols, yet it's relatively infantile in comparison to many religions that still exist today. It's still an adolescent. Whether it's the Holy Trinity or the Ten Commandments or the conception and life of Jesus... none of it original. Not even his teachings.

Sorry to break it to you, but Christianity is one of the most successful instances of plagiarism known to man. And nobody wants to realize it because nobody has a better answer. But that's a story for another day.

reply to post by AfterInfinity
I am not naive about the origins of various aspects of Christianity. And whether the teachings of Jesus are original or not doesn't matter to me. It was the function he performed as Spiritual Master with his closest followers, how he initiated them, what he taught them, etc., to pass on to all others - that is what actually matters.

The esotericism that he taught is based on known structures in the subtle body-mind, and so his initiations into the Light Above and the center heart awakening in universal Love, have also been taught by other Spiritual Masters of other esoteric traditions.

This is what I meant by saying the esotericism of Christianity is what needs to be embraced, not just all the exoteric ceremonies, symbols, beliefs, etc.

Yes, for another day... Wait! I have already had plenty of those days discussing all of this elsewhere, and sometimes with you.

Originally posted by bb23108
I can say with no doubt that I have not felt any older in terms of awareness than when I was in my teens - many many moons ago; and I have noticed this since my twenties.

That is the drawback or challenge of non-dual awareness - the more the physical body ages, the wider the gap between sense of self (as ageless) and the appearance of self to others.

I guess I will need to find an appropriate thread in which to discuss this further.

I know for certain that I am.
But what is that?

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


I tend to be skeptical about some aspects of Quantum Mechanics specifically because of this Uncertainty which so many physicists have faith in. Although Uncertainty is real, one shouldn't base an entire "science" (which means knowledge) on something one doesn't know.

reply to post by bb23108


My awareness has changed, greatly from the time I was 1 year old till 12, and 12 to 18, and 18 to 24, and so on. Its a touchy subject, I know what you mean, can I say my eyes have changed, or my arms, and feet, or heart? I have always had a heart like I always have had awareness (since a little after I was born at least), and though my heart has served its constant function and is relatively the same, it has changed in ways.

Everyone who has had a thought, or seen with eyes, or achieved an activity knows they are awareness. that generality is quite meaningless, whats more important I would say is what one can do with their awareness. Some can build towers, computers, cars, art.. they are all aware.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
I know for certain that I am.
But what is that?

This is an interesting statement; reminds me of "I think therefore I am"... it has to do with the philosophy of being. And I guess awareness and thought. Is it possible to be without thinking? If you dont know that you are, are you? If we made robots of metal and computers for brain, and it would capable of coming up with the statement "I think therefore I am" would it be just as natural a being as you are? Does every being in infinite history have to share some type of information computation we call thought or awareness, to exist and know it exists? What I mean by that is if before this universe there were a million others, and after a million more, and they were all different, is the concept of thought or the ability of thinking absolute, that any resemblance of being would share? I think of barnacles and germs and amoebas, do they think? are they? are they aware they exist? Where is the line between life and non life, how did non consciousness, non intelligent, non life create conscious intelligent life?

reply to post by ImaFungi
Everything about the body-mind changes, even completely, over a number of years, through cellular replication, etc. But your core awareness does not change or age.

If you are only identifying your awareness with the body-mind, yes, it seems to change. But discover if this identification of awareness with the body-mind is correct or not.

Do you think awareness arises as a result of being born as a body-mind and dies at death with the body-mind - or does it survive the body-mind and is prior to the body-mind? Does our root awareness truly even age? I don't know of a more important consideration to have than this matter of fundamental awareness, consciousness itself.

Originally posted by bb23108

Do you think awareness arises as a result of being born as a body-mind and dies at death with the body-mind - or does it survive the body-mind and is prior to the body-mind? Does our root awareness truly even age? I don't know of a more important consideration to have than this matter of fundamental awareness, consciousness itself.

Yes I do think my awareness arises as a result of being born, or wouldnt I have an infinte and eternal awareness of my awareness existing before I was born? I dont even remember my awareness, or was hardly aware when I was a baby. If I was born and placed in the woods, my awareness would have been so useless I would have died within the day most likely. I do not remember ever dieing to never awake as myself in this body so I can not say if my awareness exists as my awareness when I die. have you ever been knocked out unconcious? Like your mind is hit so hard, the mechanism responsible for milli second to millisecond awareness malfunctions. in that moment your awareness does not exist, you know longer exist, and perhaps the same can be said for death.

reply to post by ImaFungi
Is the "not remembering" you were aware indicative of awareness not existing? Your example of being knocked out and your saying you did not exist during that time - if this were the case, how did awareness "resurrect" or re-animate itself?

We also exist as awareness in deep sleep even though we do not remember such dreamless sleep. However, awareness still exists in deep sleep, albeit unconscious for most.

On what basis do you assume that awareness is a product or result of the body-brain-mind complex? Have you firmly concluded this based on your own thorough investigation or are you simply assuming it to be the case because that is what scientific-materialism assumes?

And if you assume you are the body-mind complex, how did you conclude this? Who are you, really?

Originally posted by bb23108
We also exist as awareness in deep sleep even though we do not remember such dreamless sleep. However, awareness still exists in deep sleep, albeit unconscious for most.

Actually, we take it on faith that we exist as awareness in deep sleep.

Unless we are fully conscious in states of deep sleep, we have no way of knowing, for instance, if awareness has been co-opted by a Borg-like hive mind and then reinstalled or reinitialized at the moment of waking.

very informative and i agree it should be done

reply to post by mysticnoon

Originally posted by mysticnoon
Actually, we take it on faith that we exist as awareness in deep sleep.

This statement allows us to consider this topic further because it sounds like the "Faith of Uncertainty"! Way to keep us on-topic!

Originally posted by mysticnoon
Unless we are fully conscious in states of deep sleep, we have no way of knowing, for instance, if awareness has been co-opted by a Borg-like hive mind and then reinstalled or reinitialized at the moment of waking.

Actually, almost everyone is aware when they have slept well. The next morning they even say how well they slept, how deeply, without dreaming. We inherently are aware that the domain of deep sleep is most restful to the body-mind because it is objectless, without stimulation of the observer function or knower that occurs in waking and dreaming states.

Awareness is the only constant - the observer function of the mind is dependent on objects arising (as in waking and dreaming), whereas awareness is always the case, whether objects appear in waking or dreaming states, or not (in deep sleep).

Originally posted by bb23108
Is the "not remembering" you were aware indicative of awareness not existing? Your example of being knocked out and your saying you did not exist during that time - if this were the case, how did awareness "resurrect" or re-animate itself?

Right now I am aware, and aware I was aware. When I was knocked unconscious, I was not aware. When I had a surgery when I was younger and had anesthesia, I remember them putting the mask on, and opening my eyes hours later, it felt like 1 second had passed, because I was unaware of the hours. When I bruise a fingernail and it dies and falls off, how does a new one resurrect, or reanimate itself?