The Faith of Uncertainty.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
And which exists within an entirely subjective realm. Truth may be truth, but it is your truth and no one else's. Which means when you die, that truth dies with you, unlike an objective truth which is called "knowledge".

Many people recognize something about this Truth. You obviously don't, but you are incorrectly assuming others do not. You need to branch out a bit further than your fixed materialistic notions seem to allow you to.

Originally posted by AfterInfinityYou mean satisfying ourselves with a line of fecal matter designed to curtail our curiosity so that we never have to discover how much we really don't actually know. You would make an excellent politician. And in fact, that is exactly the kind of subconscious factor that inspires such distrust in LesMis, as we consistently sabotage our attempts to be honest with ourselves in an effort to establish a more emotionally secure existence.

You are also wrongly assuming that one's heart-based feeling-intelligence is not also very discriminating when it comes to conventional knowledge. Such intelligence is inclusive, not exclusive as you tend to think. It is not some mindless soup you liken it to so you can make your emotionally-charged comparisons to various manipulative types.

By the way, I very much respect LesMis and his drive for understanding reality and knowledge - he is open to others experience and thoughts, unlike you with me for the last few months. I really don't have much, if anything, more to say to you AfterInfinity, after these last few months of trying.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
It is important. I personally find joy in wonderment and curiosity. Abiding by reality for me involves this seeking. No release from it is necessary. Abiding by reality would involve accepting that this seeking is a part of who we already are.

Yes, it is not necessary to try in all kinds of ways to release this seeking. However, this seeking tends to keep us so distracted that we do not simply recognize the self-evident Reality that we are never separate from.

So we seek and die fundamentally never satisfied and without ever recognizing our inherent Reality. There is more to life, there is actually absolute Consciousness, Love-Bliss Unity, but it must be inherently recognized, even realized. Your heart will never be satisfied otherwise.

Gotta actually get some work done today, but hopefully can check in on occasion, and certainly later. Thanks as always for the interesting thread.

reply to post by bb23108

I nearly forgot to say that capitalizing words are also obviously for the purpose of emphasis. We capitalize the word "I" without necessarily wanting to ascribe Divinity to "I", right? Of course, it is interesting that we do capitalize the word "I" and not the objects of our knowing - but such a consideration could be a whole thread unto itself. But certainly it is justified in capitalizing the word "Reality" or "Truth", I would think.

Fair enough. I was playfully giving some slight digs to the ribs of the authors and followers of the bible. I believe this subtle emphasis makes something to appear more than what it is.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


My experiences and impressions lend credence to that suggestion, LesMis. Generally, things are capitalized when they are to be given some additional significance in comparison to similar, more generic and commonplace versions of the same. I have seen it happen many times here on the forums.

But we're perilously close to being sidetracked by such trivial details when there are far more noteworthy ideas to be discussed, as directly relevant to your OP.

reply to post by bb23108

Yes, it is not necessary to try in all kinds of ways to release this seeking. However, this seeking tends to keep us so distracted that we do not simply recognize the self-evident Reality that we are never separate from. So we we seek and die fundamentally never satisfied and without ever recognizing our inherent Reality. There is more to life, there is actually absolute Consciousness, Love-Bliss Unity, but it must be inherently recognized, even realized. Your heart will never be satisfied otherwise.

I agree there is more to life. I am avidly into extreme sports, I leave society for up to a month at least once a year to live simply, I travel, I do art, I create, I design (my trade) and I just so happen to seek knowledge. My heart is satisfied. When I look back, I will never be dissatisfied what I did or didn't acquire through learning.

I agree however that one should live first, philosophize later. It says so, in latin, in my signature.

reply to post by bb23108

Many people recognize something about this Truth. You obviously don't, but you are incorrectly assuming others do not. You need to branch out a bit further than your fixed materialistic notions seem to allow you to.

What "truth" do you speak of? Emotional truth? Metaphysical truth? Truth that cannot be substantiated nor validated using approved and reliable scientific methods, methods which themselves have been substantiated and validated numerous times throughout the history of scientific investigation? Truth that hardly bears exploration due to the nature of our current state of scientific methodology. Give it time, your day will come.

By the way, I very much respect LesMis and his drive for understanding reality and knowledge - he is open to others experience and thoughts, unlike you with me for the last few months. I really don't have much, if anything, more to say to you AfterInfinity, after these last few months of trying.

I'm arguing with your apparent belief that scientific materialism does not suffice for our purposes in this reality. At this point in time, it is the only reliable scientific methodology we have.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


The truth that is so obvious and so simple that the mind will never see.

Absolute uncertainty is a very high state of awareness. However, life isn't meaningless and absurd, and it's occurrence denotes purpose and thus an intentionality of the will of God, so the domain of life as the domain of limitless possibility, although uncertain can be known by experience, so there is truth, and life, and love as the reason.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I agree there is more to life. I am avidly into extreme sports, I leave society for up to a month at least once a year to live simply, I travel, I do art, I create, I design (my trade) and I just so happen to seek knowledge. My heart is satisfied. When I look back, I will never be dissatisfied what I did or didn't acquire through learning.

I agree however that one should live first, philosophize later. It says so, in latin, in my signature.

Yes, any regret is useless.

The seeking to which I am speaking is not just the seeking for conventional knowledge. At root, it is the seeking for union in each and every moment. Notice this inherent dissatisfaction, this search for union - not so much with how your life looks or is on the surface. What motivates this constant seeking for union, regardless of how that is expressed in any given moment? That is what I mean when I say the heart remains dissatisfied - you only have to notice this constant search to see the signs of this dissatisfaction being the case.

The whole being is already in union with all arising, with Reality Itself, but we have apparently and experientially separated ourselves from this inherent condition of Reality, and so constantly seek everywhere and all the time, ultimately to find this unity that is already the case!

reply to post by Itisnowagain

The truth that is so obvious and so simple that the mind will never see.

If the above statement is true, then you cannot tell me that it exists, as you cannot know it exists. Even if it were to exist, and your soul were to sense it, your mind would be unable to compute it, and therefore you would be unable to acknowledge its nature, let alone convey it.

reply to post by bb23108

The whole being is already in union with all arising, with Reality Itself, but we have apparently and experientially separated ourselves from this inherent condition of Reality, and so constantly seek everywhere and all the time, ultimately to find this unity that is already the case!

Since it is already the case, should we not allow this seeking you speak of to remain as something that is also already the case?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

The truth that is so obvious and so simple that the mind will never see.

If the above statement is true, then you cannot tell me that it exists, as you cannot know it exists. Even if it were to exist, and your soul were to sense it, your mind would be unable to compute it, and therefore you would be unable to acknowledge its nature, let alone convey it.

edit on 13-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

You're alive. Scientists do not yet know what you are or how you came into being. You have no clue, outside of the physical process, how you came to be or how life began or what you are, let alone the who. So there is still no authoritative wording that answers these questions which are the foundation of your existence..no valid 'mind computation' .yet you're here. So just because the mind has yet to grasp the truth of reality does not invalid the fact that it is here.

You're looking at a flower and asking it to explain itself in terms you can understand. If it can not do this, does it vanish from existence? Very arrogant the mind has become concerning truth and reality.

reply to post by Visitor2012


Yes, the fact of our existence is a certainty and therefore a truth. How remarkable! That what is probable is actual, even in the midst of a domain of limitless possibility which could have included the possibility of there being nothing at all, but there's not nothing, and there is nothing that is not.

reply to post by Visitor2012


I don't see how that invalidates my response to Itisnowagain.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Yes, the fact of our existence is a certainty and therefore a truth. How remarkable! That what is probable is actual, even in the midst of a domain of limitless possibility which could have included the possibility of there being nothing at all, but there's not nothing, and there is nothing that is not.

According to Rene Descartes, a renowned rationalist, we each can only prove that we ourselves exist, and even then, we can only prove it to ourselves. As a result, we really cannot be certain. Not objectively. A perfect example of faith of uncertainty.

Yet another reason that I firmly believe that even if we are assigned some divine purpose, it does not define who we choose to be or who we choose to become. We make our own reason for living. Hence my signature.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

I don't see how that invalidates my response to Itisnowagain.

My point was that something can very much exist, even if the mind can not perceive it or understand it. In the case of Truth, the only reason it is hard to grasp is because we try to grasp it within a thought. Most people are trying to do this, this Forum is proof of that, and when they eventually fail to intellectually realize the truth, they claim it does not exist. But my point was simply that, I was not trying to invalidate your response..I was responding to it.

reply to post by Visitor2012


My answer was the Itisnowagain claims the mind cannot see this truth, yet apparently his/hers can. I was pointing out the logical fallacy in his/her statement.

You were responding to something I never addressed specifically and didn't even care about. Maybe you should read more carefully.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Since it is already the case, should we not allow this seeking you speak of to remain as something that is also already the case?

No because the seeking is actually keeping us from noticing our inherent unity. Unity persists regardless because it is Reality, but seeking is like clenching your fist - you can either keep doing that and suffer the pain of it, or you can allow it to open up.

reply to post by bb23108

No because the seeking is actually keeping us from noticing our inherent unity. Unity persists regardless because it is Reality, but seeking is like clenching your fist - you can either keep doing that and suffer the pain of it, or you can allow it to open up.

I understand, but, wouldn't the removal of this seeking, which is a part of our inherent unity, and already something that is the case, be going against our inherent unity?

I'm not sure it is the seeking that should be overcome, since questing to overcome this seeking is also seeking, and seeking unity is also seeking. It would probably be best to continue seeking, but seek differently and for different things.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I understand, but, wouldn't the removal of this seeking, which is a part of our inherent unity, and already something that is the case, be going against our inherent unity?

Seeking for unity may ultimately be part of Reality, but it is also what apparently makes this Unity not noticeable by the seeker. Seeking for unity is like a man dying of thirst while surrounded by water.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I'm not sure it is the seeking that should be overcome, since questing to overcome this seeking is also seeking, and seeking unity is also seeking. It would probably be best to continue seeking, but seek differently and for different things.

Yes, there is no seeking that can be done to get rid of seeking. However, once you notice you are clenching your fist, that you are actually doing this, you simply stop.

Notice your seeking, see what it does to the body-mind in terms of contracting it and masking one's inherent unity, and you will stop in any moment of such noticing.