Real Elohim?

Is there any evidence as to who are the real descendants of the original "Tribe of Judah?"

I have been told so many opposing theories that I am skeptical to commit to any real opinion.

Facts if you please.

the short answer is, that there are no decendents of the tribe of judah

the original tribes have dissapeared through out breeding

Are you talking about the descendants of Judah, the Kingdom...or Judah, the Tribe? The Kingdom of Judah was split jointly by the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Of course, as time went on, both Israel AND Judah were overran by the Assyrians.

Odds are, you'd have a heck of a time finding a pure bloodline from any ancient tribe. As for the "impure" descendants, they're scattered from India to Southern Europe, Their ancesters were carted off as slaves or slaughtered by the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Romans, the Egyptians (again)or the Ottoman.

Still, ya never know. I've heard it said that the guards that supposedly watch over the Ark, in Axom, Ethiopia are pure descendants from the Tribe of Benjamin. Cool, eh?

[edit on 5-11-2004 by Toelint]

toelint, what is this ark you speak of? please tell me where i can learn more. research is a tedious thing when you dont have a reference point and i dont have the time.

i have heard that the hatred of contemporary jews are their assertions of their elohim birth-rights / status.
hence the phrase "so-called-jew".

all this is important to me as i see judaism as the pure religion of the 3 major religions, as christianity and islam are seemingly "amendmants" to the original teachings.

Originally posted by theBLESSINGofVISION
toelint, what is this ark you speak of? please tell me where i can learn more. research is a tedious thing when you dont have a reference point and i dont have the time.

i have heard that the hatred of contemporary jews are their assertions of their elohim birth-rights / status.
hence the phrase "so-called-jew".

all this is important to me as i see judaism as the pure religion of the 3 major religions, as christianity and islam are seemingly "amendmants" to the original teachings.

i suspect he is talking about the ark of the covenent

seeing that you know of the hatred of "jews" for everything that is not jewish, why do you persue a path that is not open to you?

dont you know that in the holy (or "pure" as you put it) books of the jews, that you are a dirty dog that is destined to hell from birth?

here are some of the pure teachings of judaism you seek


Incest Preferable to Christianity

The woman who confessed that her younger son was the offspring of her older son and that incest was her lightest sin, wanted to die in peace but could not, for if incest was her lightest sin "it may be assumed that she had also adopted minuth (Christianity) ...that is why she did not die...Since she said of her guilt that it is one of the lightest, it may be assumed that she was guilty of idolatry (Christianity) also," says this gem of the sages. (Sanhedrin 77b-78a)

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Islamic site quotes Talmud as: "Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old)."

Jewish Soncino Talmud says: " Sanhedrin 55b - R. Joseph said: Come and hear! A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband's brother cohabits with her, she becomes his. " ("Coition" is "sexual intercourse")

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Islamic site quotes Talmud as: "Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old."

Jewish Soncino Talmud says: "Sanhedrin 54b -He who submits both to pederasty and to bestiality - ..Divine Law thus designated passive submission as an active offence: just as for the active offence there is punishment and prohibitions so for the passive offence too.21 ....Rab said: Pederasty with a child below nine years of age is not deemed as pederasty with a child above that. Samuel said: Pederasty with a child below three years is not treated as with a child above that.24 What is the basis of their dispute? - Rab maintains that only he who is able to engage in sexual intercourse, may, as the passive subject of pederasty throw guilt [upon the active offender]; whilst he who is unable to engage in sexual intercourse cannot be a passive subject of pederasty [in that respect].25 But Samuel maintains: Scripture writes, [And thou shalt not lie with mankind] as with the lyings of a woman.26
It has been taught in accordance with Rab: Pederasty at the age of nine years and a day;"
My summary: If the passive partner is less than 9 years, Samuel says the active partner is guilty and the passive partner is not guilty, while Rab says neither active nor passive partner is guilty. The Talmud gives Rab the last word.

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Islamic site quotes Talmud as: "Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

Jewish Soncino Talmud says: "Kethuboth 11b - AND THERE IS WITH REGARD TO THEM NO CHARGE OF NONVIRGINITY. A WOMAN PROSELYTE, A WOMAN CAPTIVE AND A WOMAN SLAVE, WHO HAVE BEEN REDEEMED, CONVERTED, OR FREED [WHEN THEY WERE] MORE THAN THREE YEARS AND ONE DAY OLD - THEIR KETHUBAH IS A MANEH, AND THERE IS WITH REGARD TO THEM NO CHARGE OF NON-VIRGINITY.

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GEMARA. Rab Judah said that Rab said: A small boy who has intercourse with a grown-up woman makes her [as though she were] injured by a piece of wood.1 When I said it before Samuel he said: �Injured by a piece of wood� does not apply to2 flesh. Some teach this teaching by itself:3 [As to] a small boy who has intercourse with a grown-up woman. Rab said, he makes her [as though she were] injured by a piece of wood; whereas Samuel said: �Injured by a piece of wood� does not apply to flesh. R. Oshaia objected: WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN HAS HAD INTERCOURSE WITH A LITTLE GIRL, OR WHEN A SMALL BOY HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A GROWN-UP WOMAN, OR WHEN A GIRL WAS ACCIDENTALLY INJURED BY A PIECE OF WOOD-[IN ALL THESE CASES] THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ]; SO ACCORDING TO R. MEIR. BUT THE SAGES SAY: A GIRL WHO WAS INJURED ACCIDENTALLY BY A PIECE OF WOOD - HER KETHUBAH IS A MANEH!4 Raba said. It means5 this: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this,6 it is as if one puts the finger into the eye;7 but when a small boy has intercourse with a grown-up woman he makes her as �a girl who is injured by a piece of wood.� and [with regard to the case of] �a girl injured by a piece of wood.� itself, there is the difference of opinion between R. Meir and the Sages."
My commentary: This is defining conditions under which virginity is deemed to be lost. It a grown man has intercourse with a small girl, the small girl is not deemed to have lost her virginity.

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Originally posted by theBLESSINGofVISION
Is there any evidence as to who are the real descendants of the original "Tribe of Judah?"

At this rate, whatever evidence there might be is unlikely to find its way into this thread.

When the goosestepping starts, meaningful discussion stops.

Off-topic cut-and-paste posts are no substitute for thinking.

Deny Ignorance.

yet... you didnt contribute anything (either)

i think the evidence shows these tribes are the ruling elite hiding behind there clever illusion of democracy in many countries, is it any accident the same group of people become president/prime minister everytime?

example of one of the tribes, the uk is owned and ruled by the lion of judah, so much for democracy eh?.

Elohim the chosen race or what ever the Jews say it is probably just what they called what we now call Asperger's syndrome or maybe just plain introverts.

The original purpose of the bible was to explain the sudden advances and changes in society during the past thousand years at the advent of the written word. The written word is what replaced the goddess culture that had dominated the world thousands of years and the first thing to do was write it's history. The chosen people were what you would probably call nerds now. It was introverted cast offs holed up in caves who developed the written word. When they came out of their caves they had a grudge against the females that were currently being worshiped and took their vengeance.

The chosen race has nothing to do with actual ethnic race or bloodlines; it is a mindset in how you view the world.

Who they are and exactly where they are is not certain. That they do exist is clear.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
1 � And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


Many people believe that these verses refer to the zionist or world elite

Re 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Re 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Originally posted by Ashlar
yet... you didnt contribute anything (either)

That's because I don't know, just like you don't.

The difference between us is that I am willing to admit it.

I knew 100% that somebody was going to point to Revelation as Lastday prophet has.

ask any informed jew, and he will tell you,

A) the tribes interbred between each other.

B) the tribes interbred between the natives.

NOBODY who has a brain, will try to say that there are remenants of the original jews. NOBODY. do you understand? it is a stupid theory. there are no remenants of the tribes.

i hope you realise this, and i hope majic is reading this, and that this shows you that i do know, (and you dont) and i knew from the beggining. go back and read the second reply to this thread, that was the answer to the tread and thats where it should have closed.

and that is the correct answer, and if you think its the incorrect answer than go on and say it (but you already said you dont know, and that was your contribution)

Interesting Topic guys.

U could be right or wrong; who knows who cares

reply to post by theBLESSINGofVISION

really there is know way to know who is a descendant of the tribe if thats what youre talking about and i wouldnt worry about it either its useless knoweledge except for in judaism i guess

Originally posted by theBLESSINGofVISION
Is there any evidence as to who are the real descendants of the original "Tribe of Judah?"

I have been told so many opposing theories that I am skeptical to commit to any real opinion.

Facts if you please.

Isaiah 11 - KJV

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Revelation 7 - RSV

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascend from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads."

....

Note four corners of the Earth on these 2 scriptures where the angel of the Lord will prepare to seal the 12 tribes of Israel in order to recover them and to assemble and gather them from where they were dispersed. These 2 scriptures verifies that the remnant of Israel are the small number of 144,000 Israelite that will be sealed with the Holy Spirit for their redemption. Revelation 7:4-8 names the 12 tribes of Israel being sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Reading Isaiah 11:11-12 above, we see the scattered people of Israel are from these countries:

1. Assyria

Modern day Assyrian are from Iraq, Syria, Iran, Turkey.

en.wikipedia.org...

2. Egypt

No need to elaborate.

3. Pathros

Pathros , biblical name of Upper Egypt. It is mentioned in the Bible as a place where Hebrews lived. The inhabitants are Pathrusim.

www.encyclopedia.com...

4. Cush

The name given this civilization comes from the Old Testament where Cush (Hebrew: כוש) was one of the sons of Ham who settled in Northeast Africa. In the Bible and archaically, a large region covering northern Sudan, modern day southern Egypt, and parts of Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Somalia were known as Cush.

en.wikipedia.org...

5. Elam

Elam is the name of an ancient civilization located in what is now southwest Iran.

en.wikipedia.org...

6. Shinar

They occupied the land to the west of Shinar (modern day Iraq) while Nimrod and company were busy trying to build the tower and ancient city of Babel (Babylon.)

signsoftheend.net...


7. Hamath

Hama (ancient Hamath; Arabic: حماة, meaning fortress) is a city on the banks of the Orontes river in central Syria. It is the provincial capital of the Hama Governorate. It is the location of the historical city Hamat.

en.wikipedia.org...

8. Islands of the sea

South East Asia - Philippines, Indonesia

....

So, with all these facts, the 12 tribes of Israel were scattered mostly in the middle east and some part of Ethiopia, Northern Sudan, and South East Asia - Philippines or Indonesia. As for the Assyrians, they were scattered even more to the USA, Sweden, Jordan, Australia, Germany, France, Russia, Canada, Armenia. The Israelites were all scattered in all 4 corners of the globe - North, South, East, West.


[edit on 7/11/2008 by amitheone]

[edit on 7/11/2008 by amitheone]

reply to post by theBLESSINGofVISION


Oh Noes the evil Zionist Jew has arrived!

Shalom Aleichem my gentile brothers!

To answer the question is there any proof ancient Israelite tribes still live?

Yes there is! There are these wonderful things known as genetic markers.

Most Jews have a common genetic marker. One example is the Y-chromosomal Aaron and the Cohen Modal Haplotype. I should mention that the term Jew now encompasses not just Yehudi but all other children of Israel like the Kohanim. It doesn't matter if they are from Africa, India, China, Europe or the Middle East. Most of us carry genetic markers.

On the other hand I must emphasize that the L-rd G-d of Abraham did not expect us to remain ethnically pure. During the Exodus thousands upon thousands of Egyptians left with the Children of Israel. They were adopted into the House of Israel and became One with Israel. It didn't stop there. Ethiopia was once a Jewish Kingdom and thousands of the children of Israel fled to Ethiopia before and after the Babylonian Conquest of Judah. It should be noted that Assyria only overran Israel not Judah. That was the Babylonians that conquered Jerusalem not the Assyrians. Anyway the Israelites who fled to Ethiopia intermarried and converted thousands. Now there are African tribes of Jewish descent stretching from Ethiopia to Kenya. Heck the Solamnic Royal Family of Ethiopia might not only be of the Tribe of Judah, they may be of the House of David!

The Jews, Israelites fled all over the world. Some think even to Ireland. Its known for a fact that a number of Jewish refugees settled in Shanghai and in India. We went global thanks to the Diaspora.

Now people can spout hateful Aryan crap and other pseudo scientific cult nonsense, but Genetic markers are not nonsense.

Now I have no idea what you mean by Elohim birthright. You'll have to elaborate.

That crap about the dirty dog destined to hell stuff is outright pure propagandic stool. Anyone can pretty much be adopted into the House of Israel by conversion. Its a long process but people shouldn't be discouraged. Its a challenge and any real goal is only achieved by persistence and dedication.

Or quoting the Sanhedrin, more propaganda. Is the Sanhedrin the Torah? NO! Of the 613 Mitzvoth in the Torah one will not find any such law stopping Gentiles from becoming One with Israel. Someone can quote the Talmud all day long and find some really odd things in it, but at the end of the day the Talmud is a rabbinical dialogue. It has rabbis arguing, discussing, analyzing, and numerous opinions and interpretations.

I should mention this.
In the Christian gospel Jesus himself compares Gentiles to dogs and swine. He actually forbids the Apostles at first from preaching among the Gentiles. Yet I never ever hear a peep of protest over it. No people get all bent out of shape over the Talmud.

Regardless of rabbinical debates, discourses, and even Jesus' words about Gentiles, non Jews are welcome to be adopted into the House of Israel just like the ancient Egyptians who journeyed in the Sinai wilderness with the Hebrews. Just contact your local rabbi for details. It takes around a year and expect circumcison if your male.

HATZLACHA RABBAH!

Wow...
Resurrected from 2004...
NICE!!!!

Gimme a second to recall my stuff and il'' be happy to do this ancient thread proud