What the S-300 means to to Israel

Not much really...its more of a political move.

www.haaretz.com...

Robert Hewson, an IHS Jane's air power analyst, said that were Syria to receive the S-300 [air defense missile system] it would probably take several months to deploy and operate the system. But he suggested it would not pose a big challenge for Israel's hi-tech air force.

"It's a fairly well-established, fairly well-understood system, so there is a corpus of knowledge, particularly among Israel's friends, about how to deal with this system," he said.

Once activated, the S-300 could easily be spotted thanks to its distinctive radar signal, Hewson said, "and from there it's a fairly short step to taking it out. It's not a wonder-weapon."

Cyprus bought the S-300 and eventually positioned it on the Greek island of Crete. Israel, which has close ties with Nicosia and Athens, may have tested its jets against that S-300's capabilities during Mediterranean overflights, Hewson said.

A great deal would hinge on which version they deploy. A lot is know about the initial versions of the S300 but like all missile systems changes are made.

Israel had better hope that Russia do not decide to send the S400 system to protect their base. That is one of the most advanced systems in use anywhere.

Israel is attacking another country, it is that simple. They deserve to be shot out of the air.

P

There are always countermeasures. Im sure the west already has production pro-typoe S-400 and S-500 systems and have figured out how to do deal with them.

I'm glad you're certain we are just superior over all systems on Earth. No one in the positions that matter and will have to face these things, are. Lets see what the S-300 actually is though.... It's no wonder weapon and it's not the Finger of God from the ground up. Certainly not. However, it is one of the most effective SAM systems in the world today.

S-300/PMU2 AntiAir Missile System w/ Radar specs

They boast a range of over 100 nautical miles and altitude range over 80,000 feet. They can track 100 targets at once, engage 12, and do something the PAC-III systems cannot. Raise and fire to a 90 degree angle. They're also entirely self contained in sealed containers, by general design, so maintenance (or the odds of failing for lack of it) is greatly reduced. It's the classic Russian approach of K.I.S.S. from start to finish. (Keep It Simple Stupid)

Eventually, we'd pick an enemy who wasn't playing with Russia's 3rd or 4th generation cast offs and at least until recently (reports vary now) there were more than a few Russian technicians, not Syrians, running some of the higher systems they have deployed.

The next is what is taken for granted to what Syria has.

Known Syria Air Defense Network

The S-300 deliveries are on again, off again...maybe they've happened and maybe they haven't...going as far back as 2005 and earlier. It also depends on which variant of the 300 system they may have. Some wouldn't be so bad....Some would run little circles around the PAC-III spec sheets and then shoot them for the fun of it.

Speaking of high-altitude Russian-built SAM systems, dubbed triple digit SAMS, that keep American planners awake at night, Syria’s probably got them.

Specifically, Damascus reportedly has the S-300 air defense system that has long been considered one of the world’s most advance SAM systems.

Source

As the article goes on to say, the West figures it can defeat them...and then, maybe not so cleanly. It's like so much else as we've killed the low hanging fruit of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya ...to progress to the truly tough nuts of Syria and Iran, where they have some of the top line things or make them domestically, as the case may be.

The last one is a Russian source, so always taken with a grain of salt when a nation is talking up their own system ...but Western Analysts don't laugh this one off, either. Again, it's no wonder weapon, but it's a far cry from the SAM sites Iraq or even Libya actually had or brought online to use at any point.

How Russia's S-300PMU-1 Stacks Up Against American Patriot

The only 100% certain winning move in this game is...not to play. That's my humble opinion from reading the above and quite a bit more over the last year or more on this and the P-800 Yakhont, which the world doesn't have to guess about and knows they have. Russia didn't short change a client state they have 10's of thousands of their own nationals living and working in, within a real bad neighborhood.

Sew, wrab, where were they on attack day"
Also if the werent up for it the first stike, there were two other ones following, so somebody should have gotten a missile or even two or three away the second and third attack....
I just dont think theres any co ordinated Cand C going on there.....
Maybe they figured the terrs dont have an airfarce yet so put the missile troops on stret patrol or other garrison duty...leaving perhaps somebodytoo unprepared too junior or timid to shoot?
Maybe clearane for the shoot wasnt available....we have no idea what standing orders they run on...though id say intruders would be promptly fired upon.....all things being equal...
Theres got to be a deeper story here.....what the hell really went down in Damascus when the jets came in?

reply to post by stirling

Well, since you ask...I did find a number of stories around the net saying that during a 2010 Israeli raid, Syria found themselves locked out of their own Air Defense Network. Hackers....Pesky and at the worst moments, eh? lol.... I'm guessing they've hired some pretty good ones of their own since that experience.

Then again? Maybe not, as you raise a pretty good point. On the other hand? May Assad wasn't ready to pull the plug 100% and go to total war. After all, what would happen if, intending only the limited strike they did, Syria shot down one or more Israeli planes (exposing confirmation of a major national defense ability in the process, no less) and those pilots managed to eject?

How long would a Jewish pilot coming down in the suburbs of Damascus, last? How publicly or filmed would their demise be? I'm thinking...the risk may not be worth the 'Ha Ha! Gotcha!' that Syria would enjoy for perhaps 1 whole day before the next trip brought the bulk of the entire Israeli Air Force with blood in their eyes. It's a possibility.

I wonder the repurcussions should any russian "technician" die once the S-300 batteries fire up and are taken out by Israel or US jets.......

S-300 is old school. Can be defeated.

Originally posted by Melbourne_Militia
I wonder the repurcussions should any russian "technician" die once the S-300 batteries fire up and are taken out by Israel or US jets.......

Not much officially. Russia would love to test it's better systems in a real world scenario.

I have always thought Syria is just too hard for Russia or Iran to help due to it's location. It takes so much time to get material to them. Attacking Iran will be a whole new ballgame since they share a border with Russia.

Time will tell. As Wrabbitt said, it could be a situation of Syria being unwilling to shoot them down although from some reports the Israeli fighters launched from within Jordan's airspace. That would further complicate things.

P

reply to post by princeofpeace


I'm just curious....but seeing as how I worked a bit to give more than purely my own opinion? Do you have anything to support yours? I'm always open to supported data on weapons systems. Particularly ones that our Pilots may be facing in the not too distant future, either in attack or no-fly roles. It's why I've put the time I have into reading all about Anti-Air Defense systems of our enemies or those who may become that.

reply to post by Melbourne_Militia


Soviet pilots flew active combat missions in both Korea and Vietnam against American forces, and were shot down and killed with no worldwide repercussions. Russia has always had sort of a fatalistic attitude when it comes to advisers. They try not to die, but if they do, oh well (preferably without being found out, which is why a number of their pilots went down with their aircraft to prevent being captured).

As for the S-300, it won't be as easy as "We have one and we know how to beat it". US electronic warfare has gone downhill since Desert Storm. It's still good, but the only dedicated EW platforms are Navy and Marine aircraft now, and we don't have the Wild Weasels like we used to have (which was a horrible mistake to get rid of both the Raven AND the Weasels). The F-16 performs some of the role of the Weasel, but it's not nearly as effective as the F-4 and earlier aircraft at it (it's good, but the F-4 made a SUPERB Weasel, that back seater comes in really handy).

The S-400 is even better, and both are constantly being upgraded. That's what makes this such an interesting game. As soon as you come out with a strategy, the rules change when the other side comes out with something new. Anyone having to go into Syria is going to find a hornets nest of defenses, and is going to get hurt if Syria decides to bring up everything they have.

reply to post by Zaphod58


Nice post. Syria could be keeping their best under wraps until things get serious and they have more targets to play with. We don't even know what they have and they may not want to let that pussy out of the bag just yet.

P

Ummm yeah. Your premise was predicated on a falsehood while i was speaking of trhe S-300. Not what Assad currently has (which is crap).

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by princeofpeace

 

I'm just curious....but seeing as how I worked a bit to give more than purely my own opinion? Do you have anything to support yours? I'm always open to supported data on weapons systems. Particularly ones that our Pilots may be facing in the not too distant future, either in attack or no-fly roles. It's why I've put the time I have into reading all about Anti-Air Defense systems of our enemies or those who may become that.

I love threads like this. Actually it was started to show some buddies who wanted to join the site how biased it is. I was like watch, post something pro-US military tech-wise and folks will clamore at the bit to say how the US is behind in this or behind in that and how the military is crap etc. Point proven.

This isnt ATS, its Anti-US.com


Im done. Recinding my membership now. Have at it all you muslim anti-american whatever you are. Have fun #king your 72 virgins too LMAO!!!!!

reply to post by princeofpeace


No, it's posts that are realistic. The US has a great military, and they have one of the most advanced combat doctrines anywhere, ever. But they're not god, and a lot of their equipment is getting older. That means that they are having to limit missions flown, and envelopes of those missions. The S-300 isn't a be all, end all system by any means, but it's not going to be a walk in the park to defeat either. Will they? Eventually, but it won't be a case of "Oh look, there's an S-300 radar, let's go kill it and go home for a beer."

reply to post by princeofpeace

So basically, you're saying you started a thread with false intentions and presentation....insulting members along the way, and all to show your buddies that ATS sucks?

Well, now. It does take all sorts to make the world go 'round, I do declare. Not many actually come right out and say it quite like that though. :shk:

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by princeofpeace

 

No, it's posts that are realistic. The US has a great military, and they have one of the most advanced combat doctrines anywhere, ever. But they're not god, and a lot of their equipment is getting older. That means that they are having to limit missions flown, and envelopes of those missions. The S-300 isn't a be all, end all system by any means, but it's not going to be a walk in the park to defeat either. Will they? Eventually, but it won't be a case of "Oh look, there's an S-300 radar, let's go kill it and go home for a beer."

Well here is the problem with A sam. You normally have to cross over the border to be legally fired on. Now knowing that what is to stop the israeli airforce from launching cruise missiles updated by satellites in real time that can strike over 1000 miles vs a missile with a 100 mile range? Also The Israelis used a trick the first time they attacked syria. Drones. they would use drones with enhanced radar signatures to attract the sams,and the wild weasel flying with it would lock on and fire shrikes. Its pretty smart.

reply to post by yuppa


And that brings it all neatly back around to the chess game. A good air defense commander is aware of a lot if not most of the tricks that can be used, such as UAVs to attract SAM launches (the Weasels have been using a similar trick with their wingmen since Vietnam), and only uses one battery to fire at the UAVs, instead of all three. The other two get radar data from the one, so they can stay quiet until the last minute. He loses one launcher, the strike package comes in, and oh look! More SAMs! It's a hell of a game, and makes chess look like tic-tac-toe.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by yuppa

 

And that brings it all neatly back around to the chess game. A good air defense commander is aware of a lot if not most of the tricks that can be used, such as UAVs to attract SAM launches (the Weasels have been using a similar trick with their wingmen since Vietnam), and only uses one battery to fire at the UAVs, instead of all three. The other two get radar data from the one, so they can stay quiet until the last minute. He loses one launcher, the strike package comes in, and oh look! More SAMs! It's a hell of a game, and makes chess look like tic-tac-toe.

YEah you are correct. Its a huge game. Does israel have the newere anti radiation missiles we have yet? the ones with passive seeking and active seeking? i think it also has hunting ability and if it loses its original track will hunt for a target matching parameters of the previous target.

reply to post by yuppa


I'm sure they have their own version of that somewhere. Along with a few other tricks up their sleeves. This is one reason why I keep up with military hardware and doctrine the way I do. It's fascinating to see the move and countermove.