Report: Muslim cleric invited to pray over fallen SEALs damns them during service

reply to post by OpinionatedB


And with that said, I would hope those who believe that this man was "damning" them, would have asked the right questions, maybe ask a translator what was said, before jumping the gun, so to speak.

MHO

From Benevolent Heretic's link:

And peace to the Prophets, thanks to alla-aha, please (asking alla-aha) to forgive him, comfort him and accept him in paradise.

Doesn't sound like much of a condemnation to me. I firmly believe that if a Muslim wants to condemn or disparage something, they can generally do a much better job than asking that the subject be comforted, forgiven, and accepted into paradise.

The specific charge was that the SEAL was condemned as an "infidel to Allah", but I never caught the word "kafr" (i.e. "infidel") anywhere in the audio presented.

reply to post by nenothtu
How do you know that Benevolent Heretic's translation is accurate?

BTW Fox has reported the same story as in my original post. Link here.

reply to post by SeenMyShare


Well, if FOX reported it, it must be true...

Originally posted by SeenMyShare
reply to post by nenothtu

 

How do you know that Benevolent Heretic's translation is accurate?

BTW Fox has reported the same story as in my original post. Link here.

This is how I know.

This is my wife's translation. She's fluent in Arabic, and I can puzzle some of it out, but not as fluent as I once was.

Muslims and Christians can get along. Most of us are just people. At that commemoration of the dead, Navy SEALS were getting ready to fight alongside Afghani Muslims, and both died, so both were being commemorated. The first speaker (again from Benevolent Heretic's link) was a Christian, and the second was a Muslim. Both were commemorating the dead, and both were respecting the dead, as fallen Brothers in Arms, and BOTH religions were respected. Perhaps we need to do a bit more of that, rather than chucking bullets at one another, and realize that we both have a common enemy, and know that enemy, rather than just accepting whatever religion they claim as factual. If people have any doubts that Christians and Muslims CAN get along, if they want to, just have a look at the first thread I linked up there.

It's all a matter of subjugating fear and elevating respect. If you can't identify your enemy, you are doomed to fight everyone you find. Even friends.

I've "seen my share" too, across the battle lines. Muslims were involved some times.

Oddly enough, they were the allies.

Jesus-edge-Christ! Seriously! Does it really matter what the guy said? Why you so mad? Why you so upset? Keep things in perspective. How many Americans and allies dead in Iraq, and how many Iraqis have American and allies killed in allegedly liberating them not just from Saddam, but from life? Perspectives!

He's stating words, that's all, just words. It's nothing. Religion, all religions, no exception, are utter nonsense. Why are you getting upset over nonsense? What you going to do, write your congressman, threaten his position with your vote? Maybe you could start a Christian crusade in America?

Until we eradicate religion totally, we will always be burying soldiers, and the innocents (or rather collateral damage) they kill. it's time to grow up and come out of dark age infancy.

reply to post by elysiumfire


Well, let's look at this in a different light. If a man attended the funeral of a family member, and they weren't known to me? I'd let that slide without much question, figuring whoever invited them to speak at grave side or at the memorial had their reasons and it would be something appropriate to the time and circumstance.

If that person then used their moment to speak, to degrade or run down my deceased relative at that memorial or at grave side? Well....There would be very harsh words, at a minimum, with both the individual who chose such a radically inappropriate time to do such a thing..AND the moron who invited them.


People who can't begin to see the issue here, apparently would have no problem with the scenario above if it were their own family either ....as the United States Armed Forces and the members in it, are not some far off theoretical thing to ALL of us. It IS a personal issue for some.

Personally? I left my first comment on this thread as vague as I did because I don't know who I distrust and am more upset with. The sorry excuse that said it, or the moron who invited him.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
He really did not curse the men. He said A'udhu billahi min ash Shaytanir Rajim. This means seek Allah’s protection/refuge/shelter from Shaytaan, the Accursed one. It is said before any of the Quran is recited.

if he had cursed the men he would have said La'anatullah not A'udhu Billahi...

hope this helps.

I think I know about three or four coherent sentences in MSA and a few more in Pashtu so I take you at your word of course.

I do think though that what has occurred here is either one of two things:

First -

The Imam was speaking as he always does with the introductory statement not fully understanding that in effect he has just implied (based on your translation) that the only way to salvation is to seek the protection of Allah for protection from Satan. He tactfully leaves out that to not do so invites damnation.

If it is just wrote recitation and habit for him as an Imam to speak this phrase prior to reading from the Koran then he didn't really get a good feel for the audience (mixed) as any speaker should. Not criminal of course but hardly professional.

I understand how Muslims are with their recitations - I mean you can get "Should Allah will it" (or some variation thereof) in response to almost anything... its ingrained response. This of course implies to the listener that they too are subjet to the will of Allah even if they don't beleive in him themselves. I never took that personally, but I know some people who did. Like Christians who say praise Jesus after something good happens...its annoying but not offensive to me personally. It doesn't challenge my world view but If I were a Muslim it might. That is implying that I owe Jesus for whatever just happened.

Anyway, based on my few years in theater (Afghanistan/Iraq) I suppose this guy’s statement would be like the Christian guy asking everyone to accept Jesus as their Savior before quoting the Bible in a mixed group of Muslims and Christians. Personally, I don't suspect it would go over well and for sure with a lot more bloodshed had there been a few hard liners around. It is a direct challenge to one's faith.

Second -

Perhaps he knew this and wanted to make a plausibly deniable dig that implied that those who had not sought the protection of Allah from Satan (i.e. the dead SEALs) were damned. I mean as an Imam he surely feels deep inside that if the dead were non-believers they are indeed damned - period regardless of what he reads from the Koran in their memory/honor/behalf.

I think this would fit that bill.

I mean after all if a Preist were to state that one must accept Jesus as their savior or be denied heaven before reading a verse from the Bible at a service honoring dead Muslims one could reasonably opine that while going through the motions of offering prayer for their souls as non-believers he (the Preist) knows it is completely irrelevant as they are by their denial of Chist already damned.

Personally, I am a non-believer in any god so the whole thing seems silly to me; fighting over pretend friends is dumb.

However, I can see how a diehard Christian could be offended by the Imam's words even as as translated by you.

Religion is a touchy subject and IMO they could have had a remembrance ceremony that honored the dead from both (and all religions) in a purely professional way.

Remember them as fallen warriors who died fighting a common foe respected by their comrades in arms.

Leave their families and loved ones handle the religious details individually and privately.

Instead they wanted to seem inclusive and PC and they failed.

Originally posted by Golf66

The Imam was speaking as he always does with the introductory statement not fully understanding that in effect he has just implied (based on your translation) that the only way to salvation is to seek the protection of Allah for protection from Satan. He tactfully leaves out that to not do so invites damnation.

What the Imam said was just a formulaic recitation. They always say the same thing before reading from the Qur'an, because they believe that that is when the Shaytan will try to get them the hardest, by causing them to misunderstand what they are reading. The sense is for Allah to guide their understanding in protection from the Shaytan's misleading.

Christians have a similar concept, although not used formulaically "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" 1 Peter 5:8

In Islam, that formula is not for everyone present, it's for the reciter - i.e. he said "I seek refuge", singular, rather than plural and inclusive. It's a plea between the cleric and God, before he starts the recitation, to "guide me rightly".

I understand how Muslims are with their recitations - I mean you can get "Should Allah will it" (or some variation thereof) in response to almost anything... its ingrained response.

Same here. In this neck of the woods, even the profane are known to say "Good Lord willing and the creeks don't rise" way too often and as a matter of course. That's the hillbilly version of "inshallah".

This of course implies to the listener that they too are subjet to the will of Allah even if they don't beleive in him themselves. I never took that personally, but I know some people who did.

I believe that the misunderstanding there is in the Christian notion that "allah" is a proper name - it's not. It just means "The God", and isn't really all that specific, not enough to differentiate the Muslim God from the Christian God.

Anyway, based on my few years in theater (Afghanistan/Iraq) I suppose this guy’s statement would be like the Christian guy asking everyone to accept Jesus as their Savior before quoting the Bible in a mixed group of Muslims and Christians. Personally, I don't suspect it would go over well and for sure with a lot more bloodshed had there been a few hard liners around. It is a direct challenge to one's faith.

Pretty close. Some folks on both sides of that divide are WAY too fast to take offense, which I suspect may be borne of fear - that their religion can somehow be sullied thereby. I dunno. I've never felt mine to be that weak, so I can't really identify. I suppose, though, that if your security in your own beliefs were weak, you could see that sort of thing as a danger to you.

Perhaps he knew this and wanted to make a plausibly deniable dig that implied that those who had not sought the protection of Allah from Satan (i.e. the dead SEALs) were damned. I mean as an Imam he surely feels deep inside that if the dead were non-believers they are indeed damned - period regardless of what he reads from the Koran in their memory/honor/behalf.

Having spent time in theater, you probably already know that Christians and Jews are not considered "unbelievers", i.e "kafr", but are considered "People of the Book", fellow travelers of a sort. They generally just believe them to be inferior, incomplete, or imperfect believers , but not "hell bound".

All in all, it seems to be a misunderstanding, perhaps intentional and agenda driven and fueled, with a lot of people listening to what some Christian says about what Muslims believe. Personally, if I want to know what Christians believe, I'm not going to go ask a Muslim - I'd rather go to the source, and ask a Christian. It works the same way the other way 'round.

Religion is a touchy subject and IMO they could have had a remembrance ceremony that honored the dead from both (and all religions) in a purely professional way.

Remember them as fallen warriors who died fighting a common foe respected by their comrades in arms.

Leave their families and loved ones handle the religious details individually and privately.

Instead they wanted to seem inclusive and PC and they failed.

That really would have been the best solution, but leave it up to Uncle Sugar to attempt to be inclusive, make everyone happy, and fail miserably in the attempt, making no one happy. I guess it's true, eh - the military only has two sizes - too big and too small.

reply to post by SeenMyShare

this is the closest I've ever come to violating the TOS!

Damn near everytime I login I violate the 'TOS', that's why they love me so much.

You're right though everything about the incident is an injustice to the dead and the living.

You ain't seen nothin yet.

Then again, when will YOU say... "That's it, I've seen enough"

You may deny him to the end, but in the end you'll know.

QUOTE: The family sat on the video for months, as the grieving parents considered how to proceed. Now, it appears they have come forward not only about the cleric’s alleged verbal offense, but also about other issues that were highlighted earlier today at the press conference.

“Our sons were subjected to a final act of betrayal by their government,” Karen Vaughn told TheBlaze of the prayer being read. END QUOTE:


As if they did not have enough to be sad and mad about already..... if the translation given to them was false or the interpretation was inaccurate it was like another slap in the face as they gathered to say farewell. The most innocent event can turn into a total cluster by mistrust and misunderstanding. Sad on many levels regardless

Christies and Muzzies can go on hating and disrespecting each other if they want(remember Abu graib?)
But i personally want off the religion train.
You all can take a flyng freak at killing each other off for all i care go ahead.
Thatll be a whole lot less bigots left on both sides.

Originally posted by SeenMyShare
I would like to see the certified translation, and, find out who translated and certified it.

I don't know, but the plaintiffs' lawyer's so-called certified translator's translation sucks.

I think they have Qur'ans in English, so, couldn't one just go and open up to that scripture and see what it says.

Edit, I don't speak Arabic, but if something is called a translation and it looks like someone put magnetic poetry strips in a vitamix blender and aimed it at a metal surface, the person doing the translation was not qualified.

Man...when will the Government and media get the ability to just press a button to get the mindless hoards to hate others, instead of staging such things to produce it in the American public in a need for war?

Sigh...I can't be believe so many are this upset and can't forgive and understand.

I mean...not many Americans watch, care or even know of all the Muslim children bombed in the last ten years, or witnessed their parents digging their lifeless bodies from the rubble begging the sky and the world to observe the "murders" of over a quarter million innocent "civilians" in our little Pepsi-cola wars for money, resources, infrastructure and domination over the weak.

Sorry...I forgive ANYONE who damns ANYONE with WORDS in a world where real weapons are killing the children of men and women who are simply trying to survive.

We spend a decade destroying and bombing civilian soft targets while we buy our iphones and burgers...while they die in a silent void of obscurity...and we sit in warm homes with our families damning those who damn those who damn...

lol...

I'm sorry...but almost every post I read in this thread made me sick and reminded me quickly just why our country is the greatest breeding pit of rape, greed, blood lust and murder.

OH...and media propaganda.

I FORGIVE A MAN for saying dumb crap out of anger and pain.

I also forgive the many stupid posts in this thread that do exactly the same.

Hugs...and love...to you...muslims...the fallen on both sides. The innocent and the guilty alike. And all those ignored in a man-made hell to support mindless consumerism and the Plato's Cave we all casually accept as "ok" while countless suffer a hell most of us couldn't even "feel" emotionally because we have been programmed by flashing lights, 4x4-beat structures of sound and well placed propaganda.

Its ok...those SEAL guys deserved to be damned...so did the cleric prolly...and so do we all.

Nobody deserves death at the hands of an agenda.

MM

It's really not a big surprise that Larry Klayman is the attorney in this case. For those who have never heard of him he is a hack lawyer that has pretty much made a career of suing the White house when there is a democrat in office. He also sued Facebook for a billion dollars when they didn't take down and anti Israeli page fast enough to suit him. The only reason he is filing this is for the bucks.