Report: Muslim cleric invited to pray over fallen SEALs damns them during service

Originally posted by nenothtu

Well then, this is where the debate ends, before it goes off into uncharted and angry territory. It's more than just a matter of implying that I or my wife are agenda-driven liars, in spite of the fact that there are several hundred million people all around the planet who can check the veracity of the translations.

I think you just like a good argument.

It really isn't reasonable for you to expect me to take your opinion as the last, definitive word on what the prayer means. I have never met you and I know next to nothing about you.

I don't know your wife either. I don't even know if she exists.

It isn't reasonable for you to get angry about that.

How about you offer some translations from independent, expert, translators? Respected experts in their field?

Originally posted by nenothtu
I dislike the phrase "moderate Muslims", but sometimes use it myself to get a point across to people who understand nothing else. I don't believe there is such a thing, there are only "Muslims" and "people who want you to THINK they are Muslims" in the Islamic camp.

Then you have a PR problem.

Moderate Muslims are perfectly entitled to distance themselves from Islam's more radical followers.

However, what no one is buying into these days is that radical Muslims are not really Muslims at all.

No one, beyond moderate Muslims themselves, are buying into it. It is a false paradigm.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Battleline

 

If what you say is true then why is this administration giving money and arm's to Egypt and the same to Saudi Arabia, it would also seem we are about to free Syria once again to the benefit of the Muslim Brotherhood....

I was just giving you a perspective. To the middle east, the Americans and its allies are the biggest terrorists they've known.

And if what you said about Muslims wanting to install Shariah in every country is true.... why is it that we have Muslim countries living alongside minority populations of Jews or Christians... WITHOUT forcefully converting them to Islam or forcing them to obey Shariah?

Time , things take time.

reply to post by nenothtu
As long as you insist on implying that I know nothing and that most of what I say is not true there is no debate here. You take the classic liberal position of I know all, see all and nobody else knows a thing or tells the truth if they don't agree with me.

Here is where I agree to disagree, my last word to you is do you really believe all the BS you put out?

Originally posted by ollncasino


How about you offer some translations from independent, expert, translators? Respected experts in their field?

I have. You refused to read them, apparently. I guess they didn't fit your desired worldview. Not my problem. have a nice day.

Originally posted by ollncasino

However, what no one is buying into these days is that radical Muslims are not really Muslims at all.

No one, beyond moderate Muslims themselves, are buying into it. It is a false paradigm.

I am content to let Muslims decide for themselves who are members of their religion and who are not. If your "moderate Muslims" "are buying into" the idea that "radical Muslims are not really Muslims at all", it is not MY place to correct them about THEIR OWN religion.

You apparently feel differently, and have some sort of belief that you can define their religion for them. Good luck with that, and have a nice day.

reply to post by Battleline


Thank you! I have not been mistaken for a liberal in a very long time!

In actuality, I am somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun.

Originally posted by nenothtu
I am content to let Muslims decide for themselves who are members of their religion and who are not.

But you haven't done so.

You argue that Muslims can decide for themselves who is a Muslim or not. Yet, radical Muslims are every bit as convinced that they are Muslims as the more moderate Muslims are.

Your position is logically inconsistent.

That is why no one, beyond moderate Muslims, are buying into your argument that only moderate Muslims are Muslims.

Good luck with your line of PR. It is a false paradigm.

Religion is cancer the sooner its abolished the better our world will be. People need to think for themselves instead of following false stories made up to brainwash and extort money. Religion=scam

Originally posted by ollncasino

How about you offer some translations from independent, expert, translators? Respected experts in their field?

Originally posted by nenothtu

I have. You refused to read them, apparently.

All I can find in your posts is your wife's translation. Hardly a respected, independent expert in the field.

Could you link to the post where you have provided a translation by an independent expert translator?

Thanks in advance.

reply to post by ollncasino


Second page of this topic I believe.
But given that the passages are reference you could look it up yourself, as several people have already suggested.

I find your refusal to accept an Islamic translation of the Koran due to "having a dog in the race"rather strange, not as if the original source is all that balanced is it?


===> Heres a google search for you since you don't seem inclined to do one yourself

www.google.com...

LETS be honest the crusades never ended & us christens are still fighting the toehold that islam has gotten here in the us, afterall our potus is one , but he will claim all day long that he isnt , but the countrymen of his birth in kenya might have a diffrent say on his religous upbringing

Originally posted by MaxSteiner
Second page of this topic I believe.
But given that the passages are reference you could look it up yourself, as several people have already suggested.

Thanks for that.

Pickthall: And be not ye as those who forgot Allah, therefor He caused them to forget their souls. Such are the evil-doers.

Have you read Surah 59 for some context?

Surah 59

Read it.

Surah 59 is about people of the book (Christian and Jews) and hypocrites being punished in this world or the next

It was a very insensitive and potentially insulting verse to read at the funeral of Christians.

reply to post by abeverage


Agreed.

So what you're saying is some dude may or may not have damned some navy seals who may or may not have been shooting people without giving them a fair trial first. Like the above said, the answer to this problem is to stop joining the military.

reply to post by ollncasino


Doctors heal people.

Lawyers ply the trade of the law, and attend to it's intricacies.

Astronomers study the stars.

Plumbers work with pipes.

Christians follow Christ.

Muslims follow Islam.

You can tell what someone is by what they do.

Now, I'll go so far as to say that Jihadists adhere to what YOU call Islam, the brand of violence that YOU define as Islamic. However, unless you are a Muslim yourself, I'm afraid I do not recognize your authority to determine what is Islam, nor do I recognize your authority to define Islam for Muslims. Jihadists do not, however, follow the brand of Islam which Muslims themselves define, which can be traced back for centuries. They do, in fact, violate it in several particulars.

If it walks like a bear, growls like a bear, and craps like a bear, it cannot honestly be called a duck.

Jihadists are not Muslims, according to the defined tenets of Islam.

I can call myself the president of Germany, but unless I am making executive decisions for Germany, I can't really support that claim. Just because someone calls themselves something does not make them that thing in actuality. Their actions will tell the tale.

Have a nice day, now.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by ollncasino

How about you offer some translations from independent, expert, translators? Respected experts in their field?

Originally posted by nenothtu

I have. You refused to read them, apparently.

All I can find in your posts is your wife's translation. Hardly a respected, independent expert in the field.

Could you link to the post where you have provided a translation by an independent expert translator?

Thanks in advance.

Here and here are translations by seven different independent, expert, and recognized translators.

I don't expect you to accept their translations, either - no doubt you will again try to raise the bar in order to disqualify those as well. As it is said, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. I've led you to the water. The rest is up to you.

Have a nice day now.

reply to post by ollncasino



It's quite a common practice in Judaism, Christianity and Islam to take snippets without intending to reference the whole book, so I think you might be going out of your way to be offended, but honestly that bit could just as easily be interpreted as being about hypocrites of all religions than ones of any particular stripe couldn't it?

As far as I can see Surat Al-Hasr seems like a pretty obvious reference to the battle of Khaybar and the ones that followed more than anything else, so even if you take it in the worst possible light, it's nothing to do with Christians.

Obviously it's everyones right to get riled up and offended by whatever they like, but speaking as someone who's not offended this seems like a bit of a storm in a tea cup, I actually find some of the comments on here far more offensive as a human being than anything in the quoted passages.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Jihadists are not Muslims, according to the defined tenets of Islam.

Goodness me.

If Muslims who engage in Jihad are not Muslims, then that means that Muhammad was not a Muslim!

Has anyone told the moderate Muslims?

(1) Muhammad made it clear that jihad was second only to believing in Allah.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad).

The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, number 25

Muhammad, the man who conquered the Arabian Peninsula by the sword (HistoryNet), stated clearly in a canonical Hadith that jihad was second only to believing in Allah and himself.

(2) Interestingly violent Jihad makes up

• 24% of the Medinan Koran &
• 21% of the Hadith

Center for the Study of Political Islam

(3) In the space of a single decade Muhammad fought 8 major battles, led 18 raids, and planned another 38 military operations where others were in command but operating under his orders and strategic direction.


Your assertion that Jihadists are not Muslims is a nice theory but is inconsistent with the life of Muhammad and with the Koran and Hadith.

Why do you think it is so easy to radicalize Muslims?

Originally posted by nenothtu
Here and here are translations by seven different independent, expert, and recognized translators.

I don't expect you to accept their translations, either - no doubt you will again try to raise the bar in order to disqualify those as well.

Thank you. I greatly prefer to debate with someone who presents evidence beyond the opinion of his wife.

Thank you again.

I actually agree with you that you can't cherry pick who is and isn't a muslim - but I think you yourself are playing a bit loose with the facts here - you seem to be missing out the fact that you're only meant to be allowed to engage in such things in self defence (even if it is a bit proactive at times) and if the community as a whole agrees.

Given that, you could well argue that those who engage in violent acts aren't true Muslims - but as you say someone else could just as easily claim they are. It's exactly the same as extreme christian groups blowing up abortion clinics to a large extent.

I think there's a definite western bias towards the reporting of terrorist acts though - they say they're extreme muslims, because it save them having to report on why someone might be so pissed off with an occupying invader that they decide to blow them and possibly themselves up, its much easier all round to just claim that they're a religious extremist and leave it at that.
(Just because someone is allied to a group doesn't mean thats the reason they do everything)

(I don't know if you've ever seen what the British plans were for if we were ever invaded by the Germans? Not that different at all to what you see in Iraq or Afghanistan)