Okay, so the SHTF, and the Raiders come, so now what?

Originally posted by Gazrok
For most preppers, the answer is simply "we'll gun them down to the last man"....

However, I have to feel that eventually, this will not be a practical solution. For one thing, they may have more firepower and manpower.

So, what do you do?

Perhaps not directly no but a good plan makes it possible. The key to defending a soft target from a numerically superior force with presumably more firepower depends on two things from a planning perspective:

1) What is the motivation level of the attacking or aggressor force?
a. Are they willing to die to get what they want/need (i.e. are they starving or strung out between resupply points.) Hunger, and need for fuel and other resources to continue one's Shermanesque march is a powerful motivator.
b. What is their discipline level and training level?
c. Are they simply cowards following and exploiting the path of least resistance or are they conquerors wanting to roll your location into their emerging "feudal empire"?
2) What amount of early warning do you have between their reconnaissance and surveillance force and the main body?
a. If they show up on your doorstep with 80 men as you suggest in a follow-up post then you have failed completely to have any kind of early warning plan.
b. If you can ID and counter their reconnaissance force then they might likely just move on by before they even try and deal with your main compound as it is an indicator that the cost for them in resources (men, ammo, fuel etc.) might be more than the potential return.
c. If they try and slip in agents under the guise of "hey we are displaced persons with skills looking for a place to hole up for a while in exchange for work/food" only a decent debriefing format and or isolation system is going discover their true intentions. If they are really smart they'll use a family, woman and some kids to accomplish this.
d. If you can get plenty of early warning and it’s a large force you can simply leave the location having spread your resources around several others.

Originally posted by Gazrok
One idea is to broker a deal. If you produce something they need, you could offer tribute or trade for things they may procure on their raids. For example, if you make food, they'd do better dealing for a long term supply vs. a one-hit gathering. Another example is growing/treating tobacco and making your own booze. The raiders aren't going to want to do the toil to keep in supply of these things, but you could use them to purchase not only immunity from the raids, but also trade for things that will need to be scavenged, like medicines, and other less home-grown items.

This presumes that a large force of violent raiders is reasonable and rational... Not bloody likely really. If they can take what they wish why would they deal?

If the answer to 1)a. is yes then honestly there is no real way to fight them off other than to kill so many of them that the rest feel it is more cost effective to move on to the next target than stay and fight for this one in a protracted battle of attrition.

If they are a disciplined force with any military type foundation they will not just show up they will infiltrate and probe the place and only show up with the main body if they know full well they can do as they please with few if any losses. An early warning plan along with escape routes and dispersed caches of alternate stores (with your main stores suitably trapped to become worthless) can discourage an organized force from even showing up or if they do getting anything of value before they move on.

If they are a horde you stand a pretty good chance with the above plan as long as you have early warning. Also, if it is a horde your booby trapped supplies and harassing fire from pre-installed sniper positions around your property would discourage all but the most starving of them and eventually all of them by attrition.

Originally posted by Gazrok
Sure, you're dealing with the devil...but if the alternative is having your loved ones raped and killed...well...

I don't know if you have ever seen the Indiana Jones movies - there is a part where the Pirate Captain asks the Nazi commander to leave him the girl (Marian) to cut their losses on the trip. This is after they have lost the ark and Indy. He says, "We will take what we wish then decide weather to blow your ship from the water..."

I see no reason to believe that raiders would want to deal when they can simply kill off all the dudes enslave the chicks and children as they see fit - leaving them a quota for production and a couple of guards. If you want to take your chances, fine - me I don't negotiate with terrorists.

Okay, so the SHTF, and the Raiders come, so now what?,

Perhaps being a Raider is strategically a better option than hunkering down waiting for the inevitable.

In a true shtf event; throw all logic, humanity, compassion and reason away because only basic primitive, animalistic defense mechanisms will be in play. Back to the stone age....with guns!

No rules, No limits, No excuses and No mercy!!!!

If this is what you want; that's what you will get.

reply to post by Golf66

If they try and slip in agents under the guise of "hey we are displaced persons with skills looking for a place to hole up for a while in exchange for work/food" only a decent debriefing format and or isolation system is going discover their true intentions.

Wouldn't be a bad thread all on its own. How do you bring someone into the fold. My own thinking on these lines is pretty much in line with what you stated. Debriefing, isolation and monitoring period, etc. (including what to humanely do if they don't work out). I think that really deserves its own thread.

This presumes that a large force of violent raiders is reasonable and rational... Not bloody likely really. If they can take what they wish why would they deal?

Two reasons: 1) cost of the raid, 2) long term gain vs. short term gain.

An early warning plan along with escape routes and dispersed caches of alternate stores (with your main stores suitably trapped to become worthless) can discourage an organized force from even showing up or if they do getting anything of value before they move on.

To be sure, some of these ideas are part of the plan (including obstructions placed, though naturally, like a staged car collision, etc. to block the leading roads). Early warning is great, but that still may not stop the force from coming. All we can do then is prepare for them.

I see no reason to believe that raiders would want to deal when they can simply kill off all the dudes enslave the chicks and children as they see fit - leaving them a quota for production and a couple of guards. If you want to take your chances, fine - me I don't negotiate with terrorists.

"Simply" killing off wouldn't be part of the equation. Still, the main hope is to NOT be discovered, though as time goes on, that may be unavoidable. When it is, I think alliances are going to be necessary to stay. Sure, we could bug out, but with what quality of life? Still, just having life is something. It's all situational, and would have to be weighed if it occurred. The main point of the post was to encourage at least thinking about this "what if".....

think the key to resiting a large group is to allready be in a group of your own with signals (flares or an old air raid siren) so if raiders come in you raise the alarm and hold out tell back up comes in to play.

you could pre cut several trees and bobby trap them to fall in strategic areas by either drilling into the tree and placing tannerite charges you (with the right rifle) could then shoot the tannerite and blow up the tree in the way you want it to fall and trees tend to screw things up pretty quickly.or coat 3 sides of the tannerite with glue and add projectiles to it so it goes off as a poor mans claymore

if defending a large building like a wherehouse or other large building(school,costco,hospital) ideally you would have a gas mask(if you prepped well or stole one) and have tested it for function,then you can use "raid bombs"to gas the invaders if they get into your building as being poisoned with insecticide is a horrible way to go even the wounded would not last long. they could also be used like the tannerite but in a defensive fashon if you mounted them to the inside of the door hinges so that if they tried to shoot open the door they gas them selves

depending on your chemistry skills you could in theory make ied's or try to use pure sodium to react with water as a charge and figure out a detonator to set man traps or pits with spikes on known or likely approaches

if you have access to dynamite that much is pretty obvious but you can use the explosive force of the dynamite to spread other items that are not healthy for ingestion or inhalation,and assuming you have access to bones or other dead bodies from previous attempts use them as signs to warn off attackers(this has biological side effects and could make disease more likely so dont go nuts)

if you prefer home made land mines you can make those too out of a wooden board with nails poked in it and guled into place then attach wooden/plastic/or ideally metal sleeves to contain a shotgun shell but make sure its just resting on the nail so that when stepped on (buried in the ground) it channels the blast up and into the foot or groin and would have a disastrous effect on morale of an attacking force and can act as a force multiplier

anti vehicle pits and other barriers could serve to get them to where you want them to be when you engage/ambush them and snipers have tended to have a disaterious effect on infantry companies with out mortars or artillery over the years

and while not as likely if you do have access to lots of gasoloine and a way to pump it post shtf you could in theory set up pipes to pump out and flood the border of your property with gas and light it all up as kind of a last stand screw you kind of thing.

if you live near posionious animals and have bows they can be used in a demoralizing factor as even a wound would prove fatal if done right

the larger your group you end up in the better your chances of survival are

and note to any authorities the above is strictly hypothetical,as most of this was taken from a book i have been working on over the past few years and any one using these methods in a non SHTF scenario are most likely to be arrested and tried if they use most of the things i have mentioned above in normal life hope this helps you brain storm

reply to post by olaru12

If this is what you want; that's what you will get.

What I'd want? Certainly not. I enjoy Internet, cable TV, air-conditioning, and the convenience of stores.

At the same time, I've seen the value that even a little preparation can bring, so SHTF planning is just an outgrowth of general preparation for short-term disasters, whether economic, societal, or natural.

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by olaru12

 

If this is what you want; that's what you will get.

What I'd want? Certainly not. I enjoy Internet, cable TV, air-conditioning, and the convenience of stores.

At the same time, I've seen the value that even a little preparation can bring, so SHTF planning is just an outgrowth of general preparation for short-term disasters, whether economic, societal, or natural.

You forgot one of the most important conveniences. Clean running water and working toilets

reply to post by Gazrok


Your idea of a Trade post would work, but only if the raiders get them impression that to take control of it would be to costly to them. So I would get into a battle with them then broker a peace deal. All you have to do is hold them off long enough to figure out a way to hit them hard enough to make them think it is not worth the hassle. Got to remember that most of these Raiders will not be battle hardened soldiers. (Think about the season finale of Walking Dead) as an example. They wanted to give up. Plus it should be noted that if you take out their leader then they will more then likely submit to a peace deal.

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by olaru12

 

If this is what you want; that's what you will get.

What I'd want? Certainly not. I enjoy Internet, cable TV, air-conditioning, and the convenience of stores.

At the same time, I've seen the value that even a little preparation can bring, so SHTF planning is just an outgrowth of general preparation for short-term disasters, whether economic, societal, or natural.

Sorry, I get the distinct impression that many ATS members that frequent the SHTF/Survival threads actually welcome the chaos and anarchy inherent in a global or even local disaster; They actually want a chance to use all that highpowered firepower they have collected.

I'm prepared but pray that I never have to eat all those Rice and Beans stored away. Give me green chili enchiladas and a Corona any day.

reply to post by olaru12


I'm with you on that.

I don't want to just SURVIVE a SHTF event though, I want it to cause as little disruption as possible. Granted, such preps will take a while, but for every prep I do, I try and have a real world use for it as well, such as lowering our power bill, lowering our grocery bills, or making our place safer, etc.

To another:

Clean running water and working toilets

I have that even if the SHTF, no worries there.

Ounce of prevention, pound of cure, and all that. For example, the concrete pillboxes. Some cinder blocks, steel rods, and bags of concrete mix, and not to hard to make a pretty hardened sniper position. Not hard to store these, but of course I wouldn't build them until after an event happened (kind of difficult to explain to the neighbors, no?) . Until then, nice to have onhand for other uses (just have to replace them). Same with fence posts. In a SHTF scenario, I can drive them in, in front of the fences, to prevent someone driving through them. But, until then, I can use them to make other fence repairs. Bolt on window covers (with grated vision ports) can be used in storm season to protect the windows if a storm is imminent. Decorative iron bars on the shop windows deter theft, while protecting the windows in a SHTF situation. Metal doors that look just like regular doors protect better, yet still don't look out of place.

Me and my girlfriend are currently studying and practicing many forms of rudimentary survival. We are preparing for 100% self sufficient "bugging out", as in, far away from the eyes of civilization. There is no stronger tactic, in my opinion, than becoming completely independent of society and it's benefits.

If SHTF, we hit the woods, and I'm not talking a few miles out of town, completely off grid is what I'm talking about. End of the story.

No rape, no pillage to worry about. At the very worst it would have to be some kind of scouting helicopter with thermal vision that would find us and take us out, and I doubt anyone is going to be spending resources on finding the few people that vanish off into the wilderness as safety.

The only major drawback is having no access to medical supplies, but there are ways to avoid injury and promote good health and immune system.

reply to post by b3l13v3


and if SHTF,I'm heading to the woods too! And pretty much everyone else in Arizona,so you won't be alone! The roads only go so far into the forest,so the rest will be backpacked in.Plan on a 3 or 4 day hike just to avoid the crowd. Then go hunting fast,as any living thing will be shot,or wounded so bad they'll become extinct overnite.Cut your firewood til you run out of gas,plant your hidden garden,all that.You WILL be found,and I really doubt it will be by night vision or heat seeking missiles,just a bunch of people looking for virgin ground to hunker down on.

reply to post by Gazrok


"sure,your dealing with the devil....."
Whoa! Your probably dealing with a lot worse,as the devil just want's your soul,not your wife and daughter too! My plan is to be so far away from anyplace anyone would want to venture that I'm never spotted!I've never thought barter was a great idea..if you got what they want,they WILL get it one way or another.Imagine feeding a stray cat,it will never go away.If you were lucky enough to have a concrete bunker called beverly hills,how will you have the room to grow enough in a garden inside,protected enough from the raiding biker zombie horde? (who made up that term??).If you have enough to spare/trade/barter,you must have more! And what becomes of you and yours when you run out,or don't have what they want? I prefer no contact,as it saves a lot of blood and ammo.

reply to post by blkcwbyhat


Fortunately, my area for bugging out will be the forest. Northern California / Oregon are my spots of interest. The only drawback is if a SHTF event occurs during winter(mild winter mind you, never dropping below 2-5F on the worst days typically), it will slow down our ability to move. However, water will be abundant and me and her will have our own packs equipped with all necessities(they're already being developed.)

Game, as well, will be plenty abundant. We're already studying regional plant edibility and bringing seeds with me has been a no-brainer since bugging out started becoming an extremely viable option(what the armed forces did after the Boston bombing).

This country, world, I should state, is on a extremely rapid descent into a complete police state where there is no law and the governments have became utterly corrupted to the finite core, and the only way it will change is by divine intervention or from the inside out. We've seen it coming and now we're here.

There is only one bigger f**k you than fighting back or trying to change the system, and that's not needing them.

It is time to become independent humans again, these types of things some of us have waited so long to start learning and now we're paying for it, literally, right out of our pockets. Survival and living in the wild was something that was passed down generation to generation in earlier cultures, and is something that is quite LITERALLY priceless. Now, people are too damn comfortable.

Time to suck it up. We came from the primordial soup of rudimentary, unpleasant survival and we very possibly might return to it.

Aside from our packs(machete, axe, first aid, water container, mess plate, magnesium bars/flint bars, rations, etc), I will also be bringing a book bag consisting of multiple subjects of interest in developing the needed information. My book bag will consist of hunting, trapping, general survival skills, regional plant edibility, warfare tactics, rigging, gardening, orienteering, carpentry and architecture(eventually building a cabin or such.) and some good philosophical books, eastern philosophy, probably some sci fi etc. to keep the mind at peace.

My game plan is to probably bug 50-150 miles out of civilization. After a year or so of peaceful encampment, I would imagine month long scouting missions during the summer would be in place for determining the societal structures recovery, or lack there of.

Just one hell of a long badass camping trip is the way I look at it. It does the heart, body, mind and soul good to have some humility every now and then, and it looks as though we may be forced into it. I'd rather be prepared than not.

Without reading anything but the OP:

I'd feed them. Food is what I do. Gardening, cooking, processing. Just because there are monkshood flowers in their salads and monkshood root paste in their gravy...

Perhaps I wouldn't be so quick about it. Maybe I'd give them some lovely rye bread loaves to take back to where they're staying or along with them. Darn it, wouldn't you know, that rye had fungus that causes ergotism. Good luck with that dry gangrene, lads.

There are so many options....

reply to post by b3l13v3


"Game,as well,will be plenty abundant".
Really?? You think? Lets stop and think about that for a minute.You got say 3 million people in LA headed north.Are there 3 million deer up there?Most are armchair preppers with AR's and AK's to fight the zombie biker hordes.Sure,they got MRE's and ammo,but have they ever hunted? You WILL get jerks trying to bag a deer with a 22 at 300 yards,either wounding them,or just scaring them off.There goe's your hunting idea!You really think the roads will be clear enough for you to just drive into the forest and set up camp?
I'm in phx Az,4 roads in and out.A simple fender bender will stop traffic for hours.Even if the Gov't were smart enough to set the roads up 1 way out,like in katrina,you'd still never get out.

reply to post by Halekoch


BRILLIANT!!!!!! I love that idea!!! I thought I had a sick and twisted mind,but you put me in my place! "I'm not worthy"!!!

bury a shipping container in concrete - underground storage ftw!

Well, this is why you prep, this is why you gather around like minded individuals in your community. When the SHTF hits you are prepared for "raiders" If I was to go the raider route in a SHTF I would love communities that would "pay" for me to leave them alone. You might as well label yourself as my vassal.

But at the end of the day, you prepare as best you are able and in a SHTF a lot of variables will be dependent on luck.

Since there are raiders in this SHTF scenario I am going to assume that there is no law left, which would mean no holds barred for not only the raiding party, but also for my group. Let me just say that in a melt down situation I will be well fortified with things that are not currently allowed under the current set of laws.

I guess I would need more details about this raiding party to make an informed decision on what my actions might be. Negotiation may be possible, but unlikely. I would not just give anything useful to get them to leave, because in a situation like that any sign of weakness is like a drop of blood in the water to a shark.

reply to post by purplemonkeydishwasher


if your not an engineer,it will collapse on you