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The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars. (Isaiah 9:8-10 KJV)
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (Matthew 5:45 KJV)
1. So who will be at this judgment?
2. What are the possible results of this judgment?
3. What would be the basis for this judgment, meaning what specifically will be the thing or things that will be introduced as evidence to be examined and an opinion formed on?
4. Are we actually going to be held personally responsible for the things we will be judged on?
OK, we have one vote for judgment as a self-examination.
The truer me KNOWS all sides of the coin and will be able to decipher which form of retribution will be best for this type of personality as I make my journey into the after life.
. . . we will face judgement just as Israel faced God's judgement.
So I'll take that as meaning that you at least accept the premise that there is a judgment.
Me. God, in the persons of Father and Son.
What about Romans 8:1, doesn't that give you some kind of hope that you could make it through a judgment?
Near as I can figure, 100% chance of "guilty" -- none of us are perfect, we've all sinned against God, . . .
So, in your mind, there is a pre-judgment judgment but is one conducted by yourself.
My personal belief is that, given an opportunity to review the behaviours and impacts that make up our lives, we'll essentially convict ourselves.
This does not seem "just", to me, to not hold anyone responsible for evil actions resulting in injury to other people.
Of course. God is just.
However, for those who are in Christ, before we are justly condemned for our sin, he steps forward and, essentially, says "I've got this" and our infinite debt is paid. God is just, but is also merciful.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by adjensen
So I'll take that as meaning that you at least accept the premise that there is a judgment.
Me. God, in the persons of Father and Son.
What about Romans 8:1, doesn't that give you some kind of hope that you could make it through a judgment?
Near as I can figure, 100% chance of "guilty" -- none of us are perfect, we've all sinned against God, . . .
If what you say is true, then that verse is wrong, and your condemnation is a foregone conclusion.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
According to this theory of yours, God does not seem either just or merciful, if he lets the guilty off free,
and punishes in the most sever way, someone completely innocent.
Depends on the definition of salvation, I think.
Of course. If there is no judgement, how can there be salvation?
What I am suggesting is that you think that you are in agreement with Romans 8:1 because you view it through the filter of the theory that it is used as a proof-text to support, rather than what Paul was really saying in that verse.
No, what I said is in complete agreement with that verse. You may not have read my post completely -- those who are in Christ are saved from condemnation through him.
That's a theory, that somehow a debt was created, and then paid for.
They aren't let off "free", Christ has paid the debt for us.
Jesus.
Who do you think is completely innocent?
So are you suggesting that justice is circumvented?
Justice is getting what you deserve.
Mercy is not getting what you deserve.
Grace is getting what you do not deserve.
You may have a picture in your mind of what this means but the Bible has it as grace being the invitation to enter Christ, his church, and salvation being in that church in that it is created and protected by God, and so is "saved", or made secure.
Grace is at the core of salvation in Christ.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
Judgment according to the Bible, and leaning towards the New Testament version, since that is where an afterlife is more officially accepted as a reality, is what I was referring to in the thread title.
The immediate reason for this thread is to continue a conversation that was off-topic and derailed another thread. This is a serious subject and deserving its own thread, I believe, so join in if you think so too and have any sort of opinion on it. Let me start with where the conversation left off, with my attempt at reformulating into questions what was being considered in that previous conversation.
1. So who will be at this judgment?
2. What are the possible results of this judgment?
3. What would be the basis for this judgment, meaning what specifically will be the thing or things that will be introduced as evidence to be examined and an opinion formed on?
4. Are we actually going to be held personally responsible for the things we will be judged on?
Someone who considers himself a Christian could believe that the Bible says that they are not susceptible to a judgment, having been given a special exemption from it.
Romans 8:1 is the most likely verse to be offered right away to support that theses,
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
where I suppose this leaves the person who is offering this verse as an argument, with the feeling that, even if they were to undergo a judgment process, the outcome would be predetermined, where even if they had condemnable things on their account, they would be automatically granted a reprieve. In this person's mind, they could see this verse to mean that question #1 would be answered by a 'not me', and question #2 with a 'even if I was, nothing bad could possibly be the result'.
I would take Romans 8:1 being interpreted in this way as being the result of its having been used as a proof-text to back up a theological scheme designed to made Christians believe in a workaround for the biblical claim of the reality of a judgment. An example of such a scheme would be Reformation theology predestination.edit on 9-5-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)
So there are two judgments but not right now.
. . . ones that have came back through the growth process and still shine red will e permanently deleted from existence.
. . . in scripture it is written their will be no records of wrongs if you except.
. . . "Did We
not give you lives long enough, so
that whosoever would receive admonition could receive it And the
warner came to you. So taste you . . .
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by deadeyedick
So there are two judgments but not right now.
. . . ones that have came back through the growth process and still shine red will e permanently deleted from existence.
After the judgments are done, some of us won't ever be around anymore.
Sounds like die consequences and based on either believing, or worshiping the wrong person or thing.
Does it harm others to worship wrongly, or is that a metaphor for doing bad things against others?