Nazi Guard Hans Lipschis, 93, Arrested For Wartime Crimes In Auschwitz

Originally posted by andy1972

Originally posted by Covertblack
I don't see how geographical location has anything to do with the importance of genocide. A life is a life, whether it be taken by a countrymen or a foreign hand.

Genocide when commited by a government against it own people for whatever reason is bad enough, and yes should be punished by international law.

However when one government invades 20 countries, and in those 20 countries systematicaly commits genocide against certain types of race, colour or faith with the intent to wipe them from the face of the earth, then its a whole other ball game.

I see what you are saying, but I disagree. Murder is murder, the reason why it was committed against innocents is irrelevant. Every cold blooded murder is a hate crime.

Originally posted by andy1972

Originally posted by Covertblack
If you guys feel the need to kill grandpa for symbolism, so be it. He won't in all likely hood make it long in a cell, and his fate is pretty much decided at this point.

Grandpa, long before he was grandpa, killed and tortured thousands of people and helped them on the way to the gas chamber or helped them die of exhaustion in the labour camps.

He also enjoyed what he did.

He isn't even German, he's from Lithuania...so he VOLUNTEERED to do what he did.

He doesn't appear to be a saint, no. But if we need this to feel good about justice, or to never forget the terrible crimes, we are running out of Nazi's to kill. It encompasses a whole other aspect about healing. Lot's of Nazi's got away with it, it sucks, but it's reality. How many more of these guys do we throw in jail before our need for justice is fulfilled? The reality is it will never be enough. No amount of bodies will ever make up what they did to millions. When this 93 year old is dead and gone how will we invoke justice then? How will we get peace when we have no one left to prosecute?

He and all the currents need to be arrested at any age, but I am concerned with his ability to stand trial at 93. And don't believe in harshness over healing, forgiveness and help to normalize (for all people on this planet who are criminal). I would only incarcerate people who are currently a serious danger to anyone. I don't believe in the prisons systems at all, and never capital punishment.

Originally posted by andy1972

Originally posted by Covertblack
reply to post by andy1972

 

No you shouldn't forget it. However, you are going to waste money on a trial with a man who will likely be dead soon anyway. If not dead his best years are a ways behind him, not likely he is living the good life at this point.

This is'nt meant to punish him. He's 93. What can you do, hang him. The stress of all this will probably kill him anyway.

No, it's meant to show that Israel doesn't forgive, or pardon and all its enemies wil be persecuted until the end of their days.

It's the principle of it all..

No the reason why this is being done is to keep the holocaust in peoples minds because it means big bucks. The Israel is doing this to keep it from happening again is a laugh because holocausts has happened since WW2. If this man can be tried for the deaths of the peoples in the camp then Netanyahu, Peres, and every other Israeli president and prime minister should be tried for war crimes as well.

Originally posted by Hopechest
Its all about the money now really.

They are running out of Nazi's to hunt but they still want your donations.

Here is the famous Nazi hunter Simon and the site where you give as much as 10,000 or more to support their hunt.

www.kintera.org...

I agree. Enough with this nazi hunt already. It's been what, 70 years? How long they're going to play that violin?

Originally posted by andy1972

Originally posted by Covertblack
If you guys feel the need to kill grandpa for symbolism, so be it. He won't in all likely hood make it long in a cell, and his fate is pretty much decided at this point.

Grandpa, long before he was grandpa, killed and tortured thousands of people and helped them on the way to the gas chamber or helped them die of exhaustion in the labour camps.

He also enjoyed what he did.

He isn't even German, he's from Lithuania...so he VOLUNTEERED to do what he did.

Were you living back then and knew him personally? Now you are just spewing BS. You have no more proof he killed anyone than the racist Wiesenthal center does.

Originally posted by Telos

Originally posted by Hopechest
Its all about the money now really.

They are running out of Nazi's to hunt but they still want your donations.

Here is the famous Nazi hunter Simon and the site where you give as much as 10,000 or more to support their hunt.

www.kintera.org...

I agree. Enough with this nazi hunt already. It's been what, 70 years? How long they're going to play that violin?

As long as stupid people keep giving them money.

reply to post by Telos


Mmmm... I asked that question a few posts ago, and the entire post was removed as being "Off Topic".

I guess some questions are Verboten on ATS these days! In fact, this response is probably deemed off topic too and might disappear as well!

Seriously though, our own governments suspend the rule of law, both national and international, to allow foreigners into our own countries who have committed, or have ordered, mass murder and are no better than this 93 year old the Israelis are waving around again. As has already been said, murder is murder, plain and simple, yet it seems just fine and dandy when some carry out those acts under the cover of "war" or a "war on something".

reply to post by Covertblack

If you guys feel the need to kill grandpa for symbolism, so be it. He won't in all likely hood make it long in a cell, and his fate is pretty much decided at this point.

Oh .. You mistake my meaning. Symbolic makes it worth the effort ..as you put dollars on the question of whether that much is justified. He'll die in the conditions he's in now for what he did, not merely the symbol he stands for. If there wasn't due cause to believe he was, in fact, who they claim he was and that he did what he's charged with? I'd call the act of bringing him up like this, as wrong as the acts we're discussing his involvement in.

However, there seems to be more than enough to justify the process he finds himself in. The fact he dodged it for so very long, hardly erases the evils of his past. He almost avoided answering for it. Again though, better late than never ...and some people, I wouldn't mind seeing resuscitated with heroic measures .... just to kill a second time. My hate for Nazis and all who sympathize to the cause they stood for, runs that deep.

That isn't politics to the modern day and it's not transposing anything done in the modern world onto this guy. No...no need to get into those things, when this guy is the real deal and the true face of evil. At least, one small part of it, as a relic from a past we can and should never forget, IMO.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


If an old mans death brings you peace than so be it. Fine line between symbolic and ignorant.

reply to post by Hopechest


I was going to mention that actually, I've seen a few episodes of, um is it "Nazi Hunters?" showing how they have tracked down and brought to trial a few SS over the years.

It's clearly about the money at this point, what exactly are you going to do to a 93 year old? I mean, justice HAS to be served, even if it's dead cold, I just don't really see them punishing him much, he's got 1 and a half feet in the grave already.

reply to post by Covertblack


I'd appreciate it if you avoided the cute way of calling me ignorant...as it's not even said in a general way I might miss to be a group and not me, directly and personally. Your meaning isn't missed ..not even a little.

Having said that, the death of another human being never gives me any form of happiness. There is no joy in death, even for those who so richly deserve it to come before nature would have it for them. There is satisfaction in knowing Justice was served.

Why are you so interested in holding the defense of a man who was a part of one of the single most evil actions in the history of mankind? I understand the need for some to feel like a devil's advocate is necessary on topics, and of course, we are all 100% entitled to our opinions. However, the motivation of folks who defend an honest to God living and breathing Nazi ..and from one of the single WORST locations for evil that war produced, is totally beyond my comprehension.

Perhaps I've read too much for the specifics and details of what happened in the camp he worked at....and perhaps this is why I avoid Hate as an emotion, like a plague. It's one I can't avoid feeling on this topic tho. A deep deep hate for what this old man was, did and represents. To my very core.

reply to post by buster2010

No the reason why this is being done is to keep the holocaust in peoples minds because it means big bucks.

Ahh, a little naive no? It's done, and continues to be done, when Israel needs some good PR. What's that, you just up and bombed the crap out of Syria while they are having a civil war, knowing that puts plenty of people in danger?

Oh, hey look ,we caught a Nazi. Lets wave that flag a little more. Lets mention Hitler a few times, and those silly gentiles will shutup for another few years. Don't get me wrong, if he is indeed who they say he is, he must stand trial and be punished if found guilty. But I guess I just find it to be a non story reported at the most opportune time.

Originally posted by buster2010

Originally posted by andy1972

Originally posted by Covertblack
If you guys feel the need to kill grandpa for symbolism, so be it. He won't in all likely hood make it long in a cell, and his fate is pretty much decided at this point.

Grandpa, long before he was grandpa, killed and tortured thousands of people and helped them on the way to the gas chamber or helped them die of exhaustion in the labour camps.

He also enjoyed what he did.

He isn't even German, he's from Lithuania...so he VOLUNTEERED to do what he did.

Were you living back then and knew him personally? Now you are just spewing BS. You have no more proof he killed anyone than the racist Wiesenthal center does.

No, i have no proof personally.
However im sure the inmates who have their camp identification number tattooed on the forearm, and who saw what he did to their families and friends day after day, im pretty sure these people have his face burned into their memories.

Im sure when they were asked to identify the camp guards from their photos after the war, those inmates that survived had no difficulty in identifying Lipschis as one of them.

As a "volksdeutsche", or someone from an occupied territory thought ethnically akin to the Germans living beyond the borders of the Reich, he volunteered for the 3rd SS battalion (Totenkopf) and was made corporal in Feb. 1943 and then sergeant in Feb. 1944.
Clearly he was proficient at what he did.

P.S.Deny Ignorance...it's what this site is all about.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Sorry, was not directed at you. Apologize if you felt so. If I really thought you ignorant I would tell you directly. However there is a fine line between the two, no?

He almost avoided answering for it. Again though, better late than never ...and some people, I wouldn't mind seeing resuscitated with heroic measures .... just to kill a second time.

You say you take no pleasure in death, however you wish to bring certain people back and kill them again.

I'm not defending the man as much the idea of healing and moving on. He should be put in a nursing home, which I said before is akin to prison anyway. Even if he was brought to prison he would in all likelihood be put in a medical ward.

If we are going to treat all the Nazi's the same then he should be hung, no? He is a war criminal just like all the others that we killed, why is he different?

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
It's clearly about the money at this point, what exactly are you going to do to a 93 year old? I mean, justice HAS to be served, even if it's dead cold, I just don't really see them punishing him much, he's got 1 and a half feet in the grave already.

Everyone thinks this serves justice, or its a money raiser.

Maybe it serves something else, a little bit more basic in us.

The need for revenge.

Originally posted by andy1972

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
It's clearly about the money at this point, what exactly are you going to do to a 93 year old? I mean, justice HAS to be served, even if it's dead cold, I just don't really see them punishing him much, he's got 1 and a half feet in the grave already.

Everyone thinks this serves justice, or its a money raiser.

Maybe it serves something else, a little bit more basic in us.

The need for revenge.

Does revenge ever satisfy? Many times I have sought revenge in life, only to finally attain it and feel worse about the situation.

i don't condone the holocaust in any way. that said.i post these question. we all know as a solider, that it is our duty to disobey unlawful orders, how many of us if a solider in a blood thirsty regime, where even just saying the wrong thing, could be a death sentence, would you disobey orders? would you kill in order not to be killed? hard questions aren't they.
did you know that nazi germany killed a estimated 20,000 for desertion, conscientious objector and traitors during the war? there were another 10,000 death sentences handed out.
the only country that handed out more death sentences to their soldiers or executed them during the war was, the ussr. close to 160,000 iirc. these numbers don't include summary executions, you know the ones where they shot you on the spot.

Wette and his colleagues have examined 33 verdicts of treason delivered by the Nazi military justice system. Their conclusion is that the image of the so-called traitors in the public mind is largely false. Particularly in the last years of the war, most of the executed traitors were ordinary soldiers. Simply criticizing the regime in private was enough to warrant a death sentence. Saving Jews was also regarded as treason. In the case of the soldier Josef Salz, writing journal entries which were favorable towards Jews and critical of Adolf Hitler was enough for him to be condemned to death by military judges.

here is the link, the best one i could find at this time, that backs my statement. i found some on the german wiki, but when it translated, it was hard to understand.
The Last Taboo: Will Germany Finally Rehabilitate Nazi-Era 'Traitors'?

i say if they were just pvts, cpls, sgts, and other low ranking guards, who had no control over the policies of the the third reich, they should have been given leniency. you didn't have much of a choice.

I'm not sure if most of the master minds have been caught, or executed. i believe that they have.
all that is going on now is vengeance, and being politically correct.

what happens when the last "war criminal" is caught, and the last survivor dies. do their descendents carry own like some of the decedents of slavery do, saying we owe them something for what our ancestors did to theirs.

time to forgive, and heal and not let this be a thorn in their side forever. always remember as to keep it from happening again, but not as a badge for hate.

I am no Nazi sympathiser, but we have to look at this from an objective standpoint. Yeah the guy was an SS soldier for Nazi Germany. Yeah, he was stationed at Auschwitz. Yes, he was classed as a wanted Nazi by the Simon Wiesenthal Center (but i don't trust them wholeheartedly)...

So we have these facts, but where is this apparent evidence they have of this guy being involved in the deaths of Jews at the camp? Are we to take the claims by the Police and the Simon Wiesenthal Center as absolute proof, without seeing this evidence firsthand? This is not the ATS i know...

Why don't we discuss Mr Lipschis' side of the story? Because it goes against the agenda of many members here? He claims he was a cook, and he may very well have been. Similarly as above, we must not believe both sides of the story until the evidence is there for all to see.

He could have been involved in the murders, he could have been a mere cook. The truth is, we simply don't know, and we shouldn't judge him on personal prejudices.

reply to post by andy1972


This is harsh. The guy is 93. On one hand the war criminal hunters are telling all war criminals (except Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et. al.) that there is no such thing as "too old" to be punished for doing what you did. On the other, he's 93 for Jah's sake. Why not be creative and let him apologize, maybe do a nationwide interview where he confesses and talks about his past crimes and answers questions from survivors and survivor relatives, and then let him go to the taunts and jeers of crowds in the street. By the way, how old is Rumsfeld?