Is faster than light communication possible? Yes

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Pure Rubbish.

Nobody has made the claim that Bob and Alice needs to talk about when they will communicate faster than light. This is just silly nonsense.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, 1 BIT OF INFORMATION IS BEING SENT FROM POINT A TO POINT B FASTER THAN LIGHT!

Nobody has said anything about Alice and Bob communicating faster than light before the information is sent LOL!

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by neoholographic

 

Ok interesting. So the processing is instantaneous?

Lets say we paused the universe so it was completely stationary except for me and you. And we had our means of traveling about and using quantum entanglement to measure states and instantly produce a specific state on the others particle/s. Do you propose that if you were on earth and I were on the moon, the entangled instant measurement state changing would take place with the same instantaneous speed, as if we attempted the same measurement with you on earth and me in another solar system, or you on earth and me in a further solar system still, or you on earth and me in another galaxy, or you on earth and me on further galaxy then that? They would all be perfectly instant reactions? and so the the speed limit is instant at any distance? Is there any proposed theory as to how this activity works? What this may imply the universe is?

Exactly,

What this says is one of two things.

Either this entanglement operates outside of space-time in some sort of sub space or there's a yet to be discovered particle that is produced when entanglement occurs and this particle travels faster than light. So far, no hidden variables or any sort of particle or force has been found.

What this does is allow for instant communication at any point in space time. It could even be a point in space-time from the past. This is because you're not violating local realism or causality. You might be able to send information to different universes that branch from our own this way.

reply to post by neoholographic


How/why is it thought that the state of an entangled particle instantly changes to a specific state when the other particle of its entangled pair is measured?

theoretically/hypothetically how is it thought that an affect outside of space-time (where would that be?) can "travel?" into space time without interfering with any material, every time is an entangled quantum particle is measured, to make sure its partner is turned into the opposite state?

You also say it may be an undiscovered particle that aids in this instantaneous action, how would that work? the particles would travel through space (or outside of space-time?) "instantaneously?" and still have an instantaneously^2 instant to affect the particle in a physical manner to flip its state?

reply to post by neoholographic


I know QM is weird and difficult to understand and incomparable yada yada, but let me try to make analogies to further understand this situation.

So a quantum bit of information, or particle, is what would be used in this FTL experiment. And from what I hear, once measured the quantum particle can be in one of two states, and when entangled, once the particle that is measured is measured, its entangled partner particle will register the opposite state.

So can an analogy be made with quarters? (if quantum particles were quarters) Heads and tails are the two states. You and I 'entangle our quarters', and place them in special boxs, and I travel to the moon. When you measure your quarter and it reads Heads, mine will be tails the moment you measured yours right? The supposition aspect can be fulfilled by me saying before you made the measurement the quarter was jostling around every which way.

So now its said the universe is much more dynamic (in a sense, fluid and organic) in the way that the totality of each individual smallest bit of matter/energy are not like solid quarters with two distinguishable states. It would be semi more accurate to say it would be like all current human coin systems, and how they can come together to make things like dollars and beyond, and those dollars can make things like homes and cars, and those coins can also be smelted to make a multitude of various things...but anyway,

K, so the universe, I would think would have to have an exact net worth or budget, a total maximum amount of energy or material. Even though energy cannot be created or destroyed implies an infinite amount, there must be that exact quantity of energy that is not being created or destroyed. So it is like how a million legos can be arranged in a multitude of different ways, orders and patterns, but with the universe its more like a septrillion gagillion bagillion legos that can turn into different kinds of legos with no time limit. it is in a specific order right now, but will be different later, a tree is a tree now, its fruit eaten by a man, and man uses that energy to create a family, uses the tree to make a table, centuries later, the table is burned, its contents transformed again.

Ok, so how possibly can quantum entanglement FTL work?
How does entanglement work, what does it mean? How is a particle entangled?

Im assuming the reason for all the quantom fuzziness and superposition is because a tiny bit of quantom particle removed from a stable environment and placed in a volume it cannot remain stable in, will react to every physical variable that goes on around it. And at the smallest scale this is constantly going on, though forms have established long ago that have locked an order and trend in place, to construct atoms, and large scale structures, and once the small has made the big, the big can affect the small.

So because there is all this constant movement, and changing of forms, and velocities and momentum's affecting velocities and momentum's, unthinkable numbers of these particles all affecting one another, it is not entirely thought of these particles as coins, 100 quarters at the big bang, and 100 quarters now. It is thought there is some physical trajectory businesses, wave function.

So instead of quarters, do I think of this wave as a small rectangular string, like those rectangular shoelaces, and one side can be heads, and the other tails. Or this wave has much more potential then just heads or tales, because waves can have a frequency, vertical or lateral, depends how you look i guess, and the environmental context, also could spiral.

So now with my earlier quarter analogy these are now long wavy shoelacey quarters, and so is every bit in the universe, since the beginning, it is like a wavy web. I personally dont think its the case that these wavefunctions have physical implications and presence in the past, that is to say, i cant affect the most forefront point of the quarter string by waving my hand at the wave trail behind it. I think its more that these wavefunctions represent the possibilities of a particles over time and in a specific space, according to the details of its immediate environment.

The only analogous mechanism I can think of ( after very little thought on the subject) would be a rectangular sturdy metal beam. It could be 100 feet, or a million. Theoretical turn it over from one end, and the other end would instantly turn as well. Problems with this idea, if one side was heads, other tails, the opposite ends would not be opposite states like in entanglement, also there is quite obviously a physical bridge connecting the two ends, if FTL entanglement stuff is true and real, the physical bridge is thus far undetectable and unimaginable(?).

Originally posted by neoholographic
Pure Rubbish.

Nobody has made the claim that Bob and Alice needs to talk about when they will communicate faster than light. This is just silly nonsense.

You made the claim that Bob will know when Alice sent him a bit of FTL data.

I made the claim that there's only two ways Bob can know if Alice sent the FTL bit.

1. They need to make arrangements in advance so they already know when Alice will be making a transmission
2. Bob needs to be notified by light speed or slower which bits Alice has sent faster than light.

There is no way Bob knows what Alice has sent at FTL otherwise.

Your idea that Bob somehow can look at a QCD to tell what bits he received faster than light, without Bob being informed via one of those two methods is not based in fact or experiment. It's a fantasy of yours, or misunderstanding. I suggest studying the experiments in detail.

There are about half a dozen people in this thread all trying to tell you the same thing in different words, and you just respond with things like "pure rubbish". We are trying to help you understand but I'm not sure if you want to understand.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, 1 BIT OF INFORMATION IS BEING SENT FROM POINT A TO POINT B FASTER THAN LIGHT!

Possibly, it depends on how you define "bit of information". But Bob doesn't find out that the bit he received faster than light was actually sent unless one of the two conditions above are met, So he either already knew the bit was coming in advance, or, he found out later at the speed of light what bit was sent FTL. He doesn't know at the time he receives the FTL "bit" that it was sent by Alice, unless it was an advance arrangement. Sorry but this is just the way it works, and you replying "pure rubbish" won't change it.

Otherwise, where is this QCD you mentioned that you think tells Bob when he received a faster than light bit, without being informed slower than light (or in advance) that something was sent? It doesn't exist.

Now maybe someone might make a future discovery that will change this, though I wouldn't hold my breath for that to happen, but that's how it is today.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


So if they prearranged a time in advance, you are accepting that the information does transfer FTL? and also, it does regardless, its just experimentally uncheakable otherwise? So they have a preset time, whats the big deal then, they both have clocks that are hardwired to one another to tick at exactly the same speed, and Alices clock will beep in a year, and bob travels in a spaceship as far as he can for a year (yea..time dilation whatevs, maybe this is why einstein had an issue with simultaneity at all, but i think thats for other reasons dealing with observation of an event) so bob gets to a point away from alice that information takes x amount of time to travel between them, her clock hits the year mark a beeps, bobs clock beeps at the exact same time, the year mark, he instantly checks his quantum bit apparatus, and according to Neo, his bit should be in the opposite state of alices.

It seems you are arguing against the practicality of sending coherent information across distance FTL and having it interpreted and utilized. Im not sure what neo is arguing for, but im coming at it from this perspective, incredulous at the potential that entanglement is a real phenomenon, and that if that experiment is true, then regardless of understanding messages, at the barest, it is affecting a piece of information, at a very far distance, FTL, spooky action at a distance, which, I have never seen adequately explained anywhere ive looked.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

So if they prearranged a time in advance, you are accepting that the information does transfer FTL?

The research is pretty clear on the effect, but the cause of course is still unknown.

This question gets into nuances of what we define as "information" and "communication".

The state of the entangled particle is transferred many times faster than the speed of light though we're not sure if it's instantaneous, due to measurement limitation.

But what we normally consider communication has so far not been conducted at faster than the speed of light in experiment.

What is Neoholograpic promoting? Just read the thread title. Experiment says so far, the answer is no, but since we haven't conducted all possible experiments you could say it's an open question. (We can't prove a negative. Someone will need to demonstrate FTL communication to prove it's possible and that hasn't happened yet). It's not possible so far, but it might be possible in the future if we discover something new. The answer is definitely not "yes" yet, as the thread title suggests.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

So if they prearranged a time in advance, you are accepting that the information does transfer FTL?

The research is pretty clear on the effect, but the cause of course is still unknown.

Are there any theories on what the cause could be?

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by Arbitrageur
[More]

So if they prearranged a time in advance, you are accepting that the information does transfer FTL?

The research is pretty clear on the effect, but the cause of course is still unknown.

Are there any theories on what the cause could be?

edit on 12-5-2013 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

Well einstien thought particals must have a memory where they store information so he figured the particals dont have to communicate they just know what state to be in.Me im thinking not likely but hey its never good to bet against einstien. The next one basically says some partical is transfered between the two and this partical is faster then light again im not thinking this one is right either. And theres one this deals with time and the big bang it states that time means nothing to these particals so they can communicate with each other in the past like say when the entire universe was a singularity. Which means there is no distance for them to communicate. id say plausible since we know particals can indeed go backwards in time.and finnally the last basically assumes there is a dimension that space is non existant so the partical can be anywhere and therefore communication can be fast. Basicaly saying the partical doesnt have to go through a point to get to the other partical its allready there. Again plausible now if we ever truly figure out whats going on here it may open up a new realm of science but what we all ready observed wont change.Which is why we cant use this for communication because there is no practical way checking a partical to see what its doing is going to transfer any information.

reply to post by dragonridr

I haven't heard of all those like the one involving the big bang.
But I've heard of some others.
There's an idea related to the "many worlds" interpretation also, though I am not fond of the "many worlds" interpretation.
The last one you mentioned sounds like it might be related to the idea of ATS member Happykat who posted some links on page 1 of this thread. Here is a link to Happykat's idea:

forum4.aimoo.com...

I have no idea if it's right or wrong but he does mention some ways he thinks it might be tested, which I haven't really studied yet.

Just wait until this is adapted and used with other future technologies to achieve the ability to send data and information back in time...

Originally posted by ausername
Just wait until this is adapted and used with other future technologies to achieve the ability to send data and information back in time...

We don't need entanglement to do this if its possible at all it would mean we would have to have particles with enough energy to create minute warp-bubbles, little blobs of space-time cut off from the rest of the universe. In which case in theory can pop back in at an earlier time. One speculation ive read says this is what virtual particles are.But in truth wouldnt hold much credance in this since i cant see how they would pop back out of existance again.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


His theory is very cool, but I dont know what to make of it, do you know what he makes of it, or what you make of it?

What that would say about the nature of the universe, that that type of event and activity is possible, what would that mean?

reply to post by Arbitrageur


First off you're not making any sense and you don't understand anything I've said.

You said:

1. They need to make arrangements in advance so they already know when Alice will be making a transmission
2. Bob needs to be notified by light speed or slower which bits Alice has sent faster than light.

There is no way Bob knows what Alice has sent at FTL otherwise.

This is just pure nonsense and it shows you don't know what you're talking about? Have you ever set up one of these experiments?

You need to understand that the observer checks the measurement that was recorded by a measuring device.
So if an observer is out of the room, you could still carry out the experiment because the measuring device is the observer. When the Scientist comes back into the room an hour later, he can check the measuring device to see which measurement occurred.

This is why I talked about a detector earlier. Bob's QCD will be equipped with a measuring device and he can leave the room for an hour, come back and know he got a message from Alice.

You need to take a deep breathe and try to understand what you're reading.

Bob and Alice will not need to be notified at light speed or slower. YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND HOW ENTANGLEMENT WORKS. There's no signal being carried between Alice and Bob. So information from point A simultaneously happens at point B. For instance, it takes light 8 minutes to reach the earth from the sun. With a QCD, information will be sent instantly from the sun.

You keep speaking as if the information going from point A to point B is being carried faster than light. This is because you don't understand entanglement but I keep telling you what's occurring. With entanglement the information would appear simultaneously at 2 points in space, so the information isn't being carried from point A to point B.

If this was the case, then Bob receive a message before Alice sent it and local realism and causality would be violated. Alice would essentially be sending information that would be CARRIED back in time. With entanglement, nothing is being carried faster than light so local realism and causality is maintained. So you can send information from 2020 to 2015 because information isn't being carried backwards in time. It's appearing simultaneously in 2 different points of space.

Originally posted by neoholographic
This is why I talked about a detector earlier. Bob's QCD will be equipped with a measuring device and he can leave the room for an hour, come back and know he got a message from Alice.

How will he know he got a message from Alice?

He won't, unless one of the two conditions I mentioned is met, meaning a pre-arranged measurement, or else he's notified at light speed or slower.

There is absolutely nothing yet known that will let him know he got an unplanned message faster than light. He did get it faster than light, but he doesn't know until someone tells him at light speed. If you understood the experiment you would understand this.

reply to post by ImaFungi

How/why is it thought that the state of an entangled particle instantly changes to a specific state when the other particle of its entangled pair is measured?

This is the million dollar question. We know it occurs because experiment after experiment has shown this. At this point, it looks like it's just quantum mechanics and there isn't any hidden variables, forces or particles to explain it. This has been the real debate. Is quantum mechanics complete or is there another theory or hidden variables to explain the results of quantum mechanics.

I believe that quantum mechanics is complete and everything is quantum. Classical objects are extensions of quantum mechanics. So on a quantum level you have superposition and on a classical level you have mixed states. Classical objects are still in superposition it's just their in isolation because they have decohered from the wave function.

theoretically/hypothetically how is it thought that an affect outside of space-time (where would that be?) can "travel?" into space time without interfering with any material, every time is an entangled quantum particle is measured, to make sure its partner is turned into the opposite state?

When I say outside of space-time I mean outside of what we perceive as local realism. This could be occurring on the smallest levels of space-time which would be at planck scales or quantum foam. In other words it's not a signal being carried in the 3 dimensional world we experience.

You also say it may be an undiscovered particle that aids in this instantaneous action, how would that work? the particles would travel through space (or outside of space-time?) "instantaneously?" and still have an instantaneously^2 instant to affect the particle in a physical manner to flip its state?

I don't believe this is the case but it's a slim possibility. Maybe we don't have instruments sensitive enough to detect it or the LHC might find something when it starts back up.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by neoholographic
This is why I talked about a detector earlier. Bob's QCD will be equipped with a measuring device and he can leave the room for an hour, come back and know he got a message from Alice.

How will he know he got a message from Alice?

He won't, unless one of the two conditions I mentioned is met, meaning a pre-arranged measurement, or else he's notified at light speed or slower.

There is absolutely nothing yet known that will let him know he got an unplanned message faster than light. He did get it faster than light, but he doesn't know until someone tells him at light speed. If you understood the experiment you would understand this.

Sad!

Like I said, you need to take a deep breathe and try to at least understand the basics of entanglement.

Of course he will know, the message will be on his QCD LOL!

So if a message was sent from the sun and he got the message 5 minutes later, he would get the message faster than light because it takes light 8 minutes to reach earth.

This would be the same if a message was sent from Alpha Centauri. The message will instantly be on the QCD and Bob has up to 4.37 light years to check the message on his QCD to receive the message faster than light.

Originally posted by neoholographic
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

How/why is it thought that the state of an entangled particle instantly changes to a specific state when the other particle of its entangled pair is measured?

This is the million dollar question. We know it occurs because experiment after experiment has shown this. At this point, it looks like it's just quantum mechanics and there isn't any hidden variables, forces or particles to explain it. This has been the real debate. Is quantum mechanics complete or is there another theory or hidden variables to explain the results of quantum mechanics.

I believe that quantum mechanics is complete and everything is quantum. Classical objects are extensions of quantum mechanics. So on a quantum level you have superposition and on a classical level you have mixed states. Classical objects are still in superposition it's just their in isolation because they have decohered from the wave function.

My opinion.

The meaning of relativity is asserting that a certain form of transformation properties and invariance is required for all fundamental laws of physics.

When applied to classical field theories, that is differential equations on fields of the form field(x,y,z,t), this results in classical locality. Examples of these are Navier-Stokes fluid mechanics and classical electromagnetism. (note integro-differential equations on classical fields might not obey this locality either).

When the laws of physics are different then relativity still applies, but the consequence of classical locality may not hold any more.

The central mystery of quantum mechanics, in my opinion, is that the "equation of motion" is evolution in a functional Hilbert space. This is completely unintuitive to human experience. This Hilbert space is NOT a classical field theory.

Dirac figured out how to assert Lorentz invariance on quantum mechanics and this has been extended to quantum field theory, which automatically preserves this property. (Another consequence of QFT is vacuum fluctuations it appears, so perhaps relativity is responsible for those too?)

Originally posted by neoholographic
Of course he will know, the message will be on his QCD LOL!

What QCD? An an imaginary invention of yours that allows communication faster than light? Maybe someday someone might invent such a thing, but it hasn't been invented yet.

We seem to be going around in circles here, but there's a thread on physicsforums that gets into some technical details. Here's one post from that thread that highlights an optimistic viewpoint on FTL communication but even this poster admits nobody has figured out how to do it yet:

www.physicsforums.com...

Note in particular his point #1 about a "classical channel" which means at light speed or less, which is what I've been trying to explain to you. The discussion gets pretty technical but it's not over my head, so it's not true that I don't understand entanglement.

And if you're not satisfied with that discussion you could always start your own thread on physicsforums to pose your idea and get some feedback from physicists, but I think that thread covers a lot already, if you understand it, which you may not.

Here's the full thread link:
www.physicsforums.com...

Originally posted by mbkennel

The central mystery of quantum mechanics, in my opinion, is that the "equation of motion" is evolution in a functional Hilbert space. This is completely unintuitive to human experience. This Hilbert space is NOT a classical field theory.

So what is meant by this? What is the hilbert space characterized as? Its not just an empty space but has some permanent vector connection to every particle, so when two particles entangle their trapped in that same space even though their functions of motion evolve? You realize descriptions like these really give creedance to the universe being like some quantum digital computer. Space like some memory reader or hard drive and energy/matter the evolving informational functions. The thing thats confusing is all this weird stuff on the small scale (i still dont understand your paragraph im replying to regarding what is meant by 'equation of motion', hilbert space, and entanglement) and the extreme classical physicality on larger scales. I am not saying the universe is a quantum digital computer, But if it is something other then the easily acceptable and believable (Idk, what do most physicists think the universe is?) brutish mass of rocks and dust and chaos and mistakes.. it is very interesting that elegant and sophisticated fundamental software and hardware, can create such real force and power, and even though quite perfect, sloppy physical laws like gravity. The universe is some type of construct, there are parts, mechanics, small and large and every size in between; what must this universe be for gravity to work...its just bizarre. This is the same questions I have of light and magnetism as well, and I think especially gravity, it is related to the mysterious nature of space.

Also perhaps related is how 3-d space is represented in a computer or our minds. So maybe the analogy would be as; a computer has symbolic memory of data and it is kept in a real physical space, the interpreted and projecting meaning and implication of that data, can present a larger 3d space like in a movie or video game watched or played on that computer... So maybe quantum mechanics is the 1s and 0s which are constantly being read and computed, and the result is the stable classical laws of physics world we exist as.