Is faster than light communication possible? Yes

reply to post by Arbitrageur


This is pure gibberish and it has nothing to do with anything I said.

LET ME REPEAT, NOTHING YOU OR ANYONE HAVE SAID SHOWS A BIT OF INFORMATION CAN'T BE SENT VIA ENTANGLEMENT.

When you said:

I understand entanglement pretty well though not as well as the physicists who study it.

This is the understatement of the year.

You didn't refute that a bit of information can be sent via entanglement, because you can't. You try to make the argument that Bob will not know if Alice sent him the information so this means what??

First, this is just silly. Of course Bob will know the information came from Alice when the information comes onto his QCD. Bob doesn't become the sender unless he sends information to Alice.

At the end of the day, this is just white noise to try and obscure the point that at least 1 bit of information can be sent faster than light via entanglement.

reply to post by neoholographic


Do believers of FTL communication, propose or imagine that there is any upper bound or limit to communication in the universe, and that if there is it is just not light? Because it would be hard to imagine a stable and law abiding system where its parts could 'travel' infinitely faster then infinitely infinite, and also infinitely faster then that. So while yes, the speed of light may not be the ultimate information speed limit, is it thought that there must be some limit?

Originally posted by neoholographic
You didn't refute that a bit of information can be sent via entanglement, because you can't. You try to make the argument that Bob will not know if Alice sent him the information so this means what??

It means that the only way he knows what Alice sent is by communication at the speed of light or less, unless some kind of pre-arrangement is made where Alice tells him in advance what she's going to do, but in this event it's a pre-arranged plan, not FTL communication.

So even if he knows the state of what he observed at his end and therefore through entanglement also as Alice's end, he doesn't know if the state he observed was "transmitted" by an observation at Alice's end or not until someone tells him that at light speed communication methods (barring the "pre-arranged" plan). So therefore, no faster than light communication occurs.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


This is just silly LOL.

Nobody has said Alice and Bob have to go to their respective buildings faster than light in order for 1 bit of information to be sent ftl via entanglement.

This isn't even grasping at straws, it's pure nonsense. Again, this is 1 bit of information going from A to B faster than light, not people LOL!

Originally posted by neoholographic
Nobody has said Alice and Bob have to go to their respective buildings faster than light in order for 1 bit of information to be sent ftl via entanglement.

You misunderstand.
This particular sticking point is that the resolution of spin up/down is performed by observation. Thats how entanglement is resolved. By observation.

Alice observes what she has, and then (0.000001 seconds later) Bob can observe what he has. Thats how entanglent is untangled. Thats how the experiment works.

The question you havnt answered is how Bob knows WHEN Alice has observed her particle.
Because only then, can he observe his own particle to know its spin state.

Wow. This is three pages of crap I can barely understand.
You folks appear to be arguing, but ONE of you has failed to understand the terms of you very argument and seem hell bound on pounding it through anyways.

I may be wrong here, but let me try and simplify this.
OP is suggesting a form of QE binary, in which a keystroke on one end results in a result on the other instantaneously.

The crux of the argument hinges on whether or not this action is observed, thereby voiding the entanglement.
What EVERYBODY ELSE is saying is that you CANNOT produce a system in which this happens without observing the effect, or in other ways, interfere with the result.

Is this correct?
Cuz if not I literally just wasted half an hour reading this crap.

And even if OP is correct, this is quick relay. Not computing.

Originally posted by neoholographic
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

This is just silly LOL.

Nobody has said Alice and Bob have to go to their respective buildings faster than light in order for 1 bit of information to be sent ftl via entanglement.

This isn't even grasping at straws, it's pure nonsense. Again, this is 1 bit of information going from A to B faster than light, not people LOL!

No one is convinced by your story here. You obviously don't know the parameters of the original experiment, the basis in quantum indeterminacy or the current state of the research. None of your alicing and bobbing is communicating any real understanding of the mathematics, and none of your glossing of the existing experiments are addressing the mainstream criticism of photonic entanglement.

For the record, I firmly believe FTL travel is possible. Why? Tesla said so.
Also, there is no other way to explain how ET gets here.

reply to post by ImaFungi


I will explain it to you this way. Here's an article about an experiment that occurred in 2008.

To investigate this possibility, scientists at Geneva in Switzerland began with entangled pairs of photons, or packets of light. These pairs were then split up and sent over fiber optic cables provided by Swisscom to stations at two Swiss villages some 11 miles (18 kilometers) apart from each other. The stations confirmed that each pair of photons had remained entangled — by analyzing one, scientists could predict aspects of its partner.

For any hidden signal to travel from one station to the other in just 300 trillionths of a second — the rapidity at which the stations could accurately detect the photons — any such x-factor had to go at least 10,000 times the speed of light.

As much as Einstein might have disliked the notion of quantum entanglement, he also revealed that signals could not get transmitted faster than light. Any faster-than-light "spooky action at a distance" is therefore implausible, said researcher Nicolas Gisin, a physicist at the University of Geneva. Instead, "what's fascinating here is that we see that nature is able to produce events that can manifest themselves at several locations," he said.

In a sense, these instantaneous events "seem to happen from outside space-time, in that it's not a story you can tell within space-time," Gisin told LiveScience. "This is something that an entire community of scientists is already studying very intensively."

Gisin and his colleagues detailed their findings in the August 14 issue of the journal Nature.

www.livescience.com...

So the signal, if there is one, is faster than light. This means information would appear at two points of space-time but this information wouldn't be carried from point A to point B. This signal, if there is one, travels outside of space-time or in some sort of sub space.

So you wouldn't violate causality or local realism. Here's another article:

European scientists propose world’s largest quantum network, between Earth and the ISS
A group of European researchers has proposed the largest quantum network yet: Between Earth and the International Space Station. Such a network would see entangled photons transmitted over a distance of 250 miles — two or three times greater than previous quantum communication experiments. Not only will this be the first quantum experiment in space, but it will allow the scientists to see if entanglement really is instantaneous over long distances, and whether it’s affected by gravity.

In recent years, quantum physicists have successfully teleported entangled photons over a free-space distance of 143 kilometers (89 miles) using lasers, and 250 kilometers (155 miles) over optical fiber in the lab. In the past year we have also seen the first ground-to-air network, between a base station and an airplane flying 20 kilometers (12 miles) above. These were impressive feats, but to prove the possibility of a worldwide, satellite-based quantum network, larger distances are needed — something like the 400 kilometers (248 miles) to the ISS.

The physicists propose two experiments. The first is a standard Bell-type experiment, which confirms that the entangled photons are indeed under the governance of quantum physics, rather than classical physics (which strictly doesn’t allow for these quantum entangled shenanigans). The second experiment would see the transmission of a quantum cryptography key, to see if it’s viable to secure conventional communications with space-based quantum key distribution (QKD). These experiments will be carried out as the ISS makes overhead passes of the optical ground station. ”During a few months a year, the ISS passes five to six times in a row in the correct orientation for us to do our experiments. We envision setting up the experiment for a whole week and therefore having more than enough links to the ISS available,” says Rupert Ursi, co-author of the proposal.

The results from this experiment will should tell us two things: Whether it’s possible to reliably transmit single, entangled photons over long distances, thus enabling the creation of a worldwide quantum network — and whether gravity has an affect on entanglement. The longer distance should also give us more accurate data about whether quantum entangled particles really do communicate their quantum state instantaneously, over infinite distances. As we recently reported, another research group recently showed this quantum channel to be at least 10,000 times faster than the speed of light.

www.extremetech.com...

So I don't see an upper bound or limit as long as causality and local realism is maintained.

reply to post by alfa1


This makes ZERO sense. This comes from a lack of understanding the experiment.

You said:

Alice observes what she has, and then (0.000001 seconds later) Bob can observe what he has. Thats how entanglent is untangled. Thats how the experiment works.

The question you havnt answered is how Bob knows WHEN Alice has observed her particle.
Because only then, can he observe his own particle to know its spin state.

No, this isn't how the experiment works. Bob doesn't need to be present for the state to be detected. In the case of this experiment, of course Bob will be at his device when Alice sends the information because they're carrying out the experiment at the same time.

Let's say Bob is in the Kitchen when Alice sends the information. The device will be equipped with standard quantum detectors that have been used in experiments for decades. Bob could simply turn his detector off and his particle pair will remain in superposition.

ALSO, NOTHING YOU OR ANYONE HAVE SAID REFUTES THAT AT LEAST 1 BIT OF INFORMATION CAN BE SENT FROM A TO B FASTER THAN LIGHT.

So Bob doesn't have to know when Alice has observed her particle to transmit 1 bit of information faster than light.

reply to post by neoholographic


Ok first its not possible because you're only looking at one facet of QM. For one you can't affect the state of a particle because the particle doesn't actually pick a state until observed. You'll know the other particle is the same as the one you observed. I'll attempt an analogy here lets say you and I split a nugget and place it in a box.The nugget can either be gold or silver. So we split this nugget travel to the edges of our galaxy and open the box. At that point the state of the nugget is chosen and say my box has a silver nugget i know yours will be the same. Now I can't turn this silver nugget into gold and neither can you. So once the nuggets state is known its fixed now even though i instantly knew you had a silver nugget even though we were 100s of thousands of light years apart no real information was transferred between us. So bottom line is there is no way to use quantum entanglement to communicate a message

reply to post by dragonridr


What???

I thought this was a science and technology board. This stuff isn't making any sense? Have you even bothered to read my posts or any of the articles I've posted?

First, this doesn't refute in ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM THAT 1 BIT OF INFORMATION CAN BE SENT AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT VIA ENTANGLEMENT.

Your post has nothing to do with entanglement and what I've talked about post after post. What does this mean:

For one you can't affect the state of a particle because the particle doesn't actually pick a state until observed.

The particle doesn't pick a state. You know the states the particle can be in after they're entangled. Let me say this again. EACH PROBABLE STATE = 1 BIT OF INFORMATION THEREFORE YOU CAN SEND 1 BIT OF INFORMATION VIA ENTANGLEMENT.

You guys keep talking about things that have nothing to do with anything I've said or anything to do with entanglement.

Again, what are you talking about?

So we split this nugget travel to the edges of our galaxy and open the box. At that point the state of the nugget is chosen and say my box has a silver nugget i know yours will be the same. Now I can't turn this silver nugget into gold and neither can you. So once the nuggets state is known its fixed now even though i instantly knew you had a silver nugget even though we were 100s of thousands of light years apart no real information was transferred between us.

WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH SPIN UP/SPIN DOW AND SPIN DOWN/SPIN UP = 1 BIT OF INFORMATION AND GOING FROM POINT A TO POINT B????

Originally posted by neoholographic
So Bob doesn't have to know when Alice has observed her particle to transmit 1 bit of information faster than light.

Still not seeing where the two big sticking points are resolved.

1. So... Alice wants to send Bob a message.
How does Bob know that Alice has sent a message, so he can turn his detector on?
How does Alice tell Bob to turn his detector on?

2. A "bit" of information is transmitted, yes. But still not seeing where Alice has any control whatsoever about what that bit of information is. She has no control over any particle state, So it end up being a random 1 or 0.

reply to post by neoholographic


Your problem is your in way over your head you don't understand quantum entanglement at all. Let me try to explain it this way when to particles are entangled they were split they have exactly the same properties you can take these particles as far as you want apart from each other and they will remain identical. Quarks muons etc will always be in the same place on both particles when you observe them. But the problem is you can't change them you will have no idea which spin it has until you measure it. And that isn't set until it is measured particles are tricky little things they don't like to be pinned down at all. So unless they are observed they remain in all possible quantum states aka a wave function . Now the act of observing one simply causes the other to pick a state as well. so bottom line is It is not possible to affect the state of one member of an entangled pair to send a signal to the other. It is possible to transmit random noise using quantum entanglement, which does have uses for cryptography.

reply to post by alfa1


Just a bit of advice, you need to read what I've posted and the links I've posted to because you keep asking the same questions and it's most likely the case that you don't understand the answer.

You said:

1. So... Alice wants to send Bob a message.
How does Bob know that Alice has sent a message, so he can turn his detector on?
How does Alice tell Bob to turn his detector on?

This question is meaningless and has nothing to do as to whether a bit of information can be sent to point A or point B via entanglement. Bob knows because he's carrying out the experiment with Alice. WHEN ALICE AND BOB HAVE ON THEIR DETECTORS 1 BIT OF INFORMATION CAN BE SENT FROM ALICE TO BOB.

Again, Alice doesn't have to tell Bob at the speed of light to turn on the detector LOL.

You then asked:

2. A "bit" of information is transmitted, yes. But still not seeing where Alice has any control whatsoever about what that bit of information is. She has no control over any particle state, So it end up being a random 1 or 0.

Again:

A "bit" of information is transmitted, yes.

This is what I've been saying post after post after post.

Alice has control because it can't be a random 1 or a random 0. 10 = the same thing. The mistake you're making is that you're confused by me saying 10. I'm not saying it could be either 1 or 0, it can only be 10 which = D.

When a particle pair is entangled, you can get 2 states. Spin up/spin down or spin down/spin up. ALL PROBABLE STATES = 10 NOT 1 OR 0. SO NO MATTER WHAT STATE ALICE MEASURES IT'S REDUCED TO 1 BIT OF INFORMATION BEING SENT.

So Alice measures spin up and Bobs device will measure spin down this is 10. Say Alice measures spin down and Bobs device measures spin up it equals the same thing, 10. There isn't any chance to measure a 1 or a 0 because all probable states = 10.

Originally posted by neoholographic
Bob knows because he's carrying out the experiment with Alice. WHEN ALICE AND BOB HAVE ON THEIR DETECTORS 1 BIT OF INFORMATION CAN BE SENT FROM ALICE TO BOB.

Fair enough.
So they have to agree in advance to have their detectors ready at a certain time.
Example: Next wednesday at 3pm. Thats when they'll do the experiment.

Originally posted by neoholographic
So Alice measures spin up and Bobs device will measure spin down this is 10.
Say Alice measures spin down and Bobs device measures spin up it equals the same thing, 10.
There isn't any chance to measure a 1 or a 0 because all probable states = 10.

So if the end data is always guaranteed to be the same, then Bob doesnt even need to turn up to work that day.

He can play golf that afternoon, knowing what the result will be, and in the evening when he gets to the 18th hole, he can text Alice "thnks for sending me that D earlier today".

In fact, Alice could do the same. Neither of them have to bother turning up to perform the experiment.

Originally posted by neoholographic
reply to post by Arbitrageur
You didn't refute that a bit of information can be sent via entanglement, because you can't. You try to make the argument that Bob will not know if Alice sent him the information so this means what??

First, this is just silly. Of course Bob will know the information came from Alice when the information comes onto his QCD. Bob doesn't become the sender unless he sends information to Alice.

At the end of the day, this is just white noise to try and obscure the point that at least 1 bit of information can be sent faster than light via entanglement

Based on current knowledge, a bit of information can't be sent via QE because the particle pairs are in a superposition until measured. So Alice only knows what she has sent after she has sent it. Once you measure any particle the QE link is broken.

From this wiki, which seems correct:

It is useful for quantum information processing. However, it does not immediately transmit classical information, and therefore cannot be used for communication at superluminal (faster than light) speed.

Hope this helps...

reply to post by neoholographic


Ok interesting. So the processing is instantaneous?

Lets say we paused the universe so it was completely stationary except for me and you. And we had our means of traveling about and using quantum entanglement to measure states and instantly produce a specific state on the others particle/s. Do you propose that if you were on earth and I were on the moon, the entangled instant measurement state changing would take place with the same instantaneous speed, as if we attempted the same measurement with you on earth and me in another solar system, or you on earth and me in a further solar system still, or you on earth and me in another galaxy, or you on earth and me on further galaxy then that? They would all be perfectly instant reactions? and so the the speed limit is instant at any distance? Is there any proposed theory as to how this activity works? What this may imply the universe is?

reply to post by EasyPleaseMe


You said:

Based on current knowledge, a bit of information can't be sent via QE because the particle pairs are in a superposition until measured. So Alice only knows what she has sent after she has sent it. Once you measure any particle the QE link is broken.

Gibberish.

You said so Alice only knows what she has sent after she has sent it. This is wrong in every way. Alice knows what states the particle can be measured in before she sends it. The mistake you and others continue to make is that you don't understand the difference between superposition and a measured state.

Quantum Entanglement is seen after measurement and this is the key to this type of communication. This is why Einstein called it spooky action at a distance. When you measure one particle it's entangled pair correlates it's position. I'm not talking about quantum computing and carrying out calculations on states in superposition. So if Alice measures spin up, she knows Bob will measure spin down. If Alice measures spin down, Bob will measure spin up no matter if Alice is in NY and Bob is in LA. If spin up and spin down = the same bit of information, then Alice doesn't need to know the state she measured before she sends the information because both states = the same thing.

This communication occurs after Alice makes a measurement. It doesn't matter if Alice measures spin up or spin down, she's sending the same bit of information. She's not doing calculation on both spin up and spin down states.

The article you quoted from is talking about quantum teleportation not the communication device I'm talking about in this thread. In fact you could have clicked the link from the article that says this:

Certain phenomena in quantum mechanics, such as quantum entanglement, appear to transmit information faster than light. According to the no-communication theorem these phenomena do not allow true communication; they only let two observers in different locations see the same event simultaneously, without any way of controlling what either sees.

en.wikipedia.org...

The only way you can't control what the other sees is if you assign values to both states. So if spin up = 1 and spin down = 0 then Alice couldn't send any information to Bob because she will get a random number of 1's and a random number of 0's. If both spin up and spin down = 10 then Alice can only send Bob 10.

With this communication, you don't violate causality or local realism because information isn't being carried from point A to point B. This is information appearing at 2 different points at the same time. This is why you could send information backwards in time this way to the point when this communication was created.

Say it's created in 2015, a person in 2020 can send information to 2015. This is because information isn't being carried back to 2015. It would just be in 2020 and 2015 simultaneously therefore you wouldn't violate causality or local realism.

Originally posted by alfa1
So if the end data is always guaranteed to be the same, then Bob doesnt even need to turn up to work that day.

He can play golf that afternoon, knowing what the result will be, and in the evening when he gets to the 18th hole, he can text Alice "thnks for sending me that D earlier today".

In fact, Alice could do the same. Neither of them have to bother turning up to perform the experiment.

Exactly!

Now you understand neoholographic's communication scheme!

Neoholographic thinks there is some kind of device that tells Bob when Alice has sent something faster than light via entanglement. The only way Bob knows what Alice has sent is if it's a pre-arranged plan, as you suggest, or if he's notified about this at light speed or slower.

Neoholographic thinks there is some kind of QCD that tells Bob when Alice has sent him something faster than light, without waiting for the light speed information about what has been sent. No such QCD exists, except in someone's imagination.

Maybe someone will invent one someday, but it hasn't been invented yet.