Obedience

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Akragon

 

That's an interesting question actually...

So hypothetically what would this "hell" be like?

Exactly the same hell we hear about in churches today. Otherwise, there's no point to the question.

Fair enough...

So with that in mind, what would be the reasoning in such behaviour landing people in said firey place?

Or are you suggesting everything said about Jesus was wrong in this situation?

reply to post by Akragon

Dear Akragon,

Hell comes from a story in 1300? Please consider the Athanasian Creed of the Catholic Church written in the 300's:

At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

You see... taking risks is to truly live... What kind of life would it be if we never took risks? Risk is the spice of life... yet are we really talking about life here?

Ridning on the world's fastest roller coaster, OK, that's life. Russian roulette with five cartridges? Sorry, there are some risks which I think are stupid.

It completely negates the idea that the Father is a loving merciful creator... even onto the so called "evil" people of the world...

He also hates sin, respects our right to make choices, and is just. Just because he's got a warm cuddly side, doesn't mean that hell doesn't exist, especially since some of us choose it.

We're talking about what happens after this life... and although it hasn't been proven... Its obvious that there is life beyond this "incarnation"...

Now that's an interesting place to start. Do our choices in this life have any effect on our condition after this life, or does everyone end up the same? Are some of these "ends" better than others? If so, how do we reach a better end?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by Akragon


Logically speaking, there is no sense to such an arrangement. But sometimes the best test is removing logic from the equation. People will supply their own logic, which will reveal everything about their true motivations. And that's the madness to my method. BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Ahem, sorry. But you can see the genius in my strategy, can't you?

reply to post by charles1952


Hey good catch!

And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

That would be a reference to Matthew... it doesn't necessarily mean the mythological "Hell"...

Ridning on the world's fastest roller coaster, OK, that's life. Russian roulette with five cartridges? Sorry, there are some risks which I think are stupid.

Agreed...

He also hates sin, respects our right to make choices, and is just. Just because he's got a warm cuddly side, doesn't mean that hell doesn't exist, especially since some of us choose it.

Though again, would a loving creator burn and torture his "children"... OR would he give them the opportunity to learn from his/her mistakes?

Now that's an interesting place to start. Do our choices in this life have any effect on our condition after this life, or does everyone end up the same? Are some of these "ends" better than others? If so, how do we reach a better end?

Well the answer to that is obvious...

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Originally posted by backcase
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

I am done replying to you in this thread. we disagree.
Sometimes it's better to agree that we disagree just for the sake of peace.
but when I make a thread concerning a certain thought which you have provoked in my mind, I will shoot you a message and let you know.
Oh and living is enough evidence to see that God is Charity.

Backcase you just made a critical error that has deflated everything regarding your ideas within this thread. "LIVING IS ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO SEE THAT GOD IS CHARITY". Your defininition of God as Charitable just flew right out the window. Why: BECAUSE GOD ALLOWS-

The starvation of its creations
The killing by those through war of ITS own creations (YOU STOOD BY AND Like a movie with popcorn and tasty drink watched it unfold with relish: no intervention)
The systematic reduction of animal form specie by (your creation) humans you could not control.
The allowance of Satan to run roughshod all over your perfect 'heaven on Earth' senario, EVIL RULES most of the time, hilarious. (put him in jail for christ sakes).
Letting Earth continually destroy its inhabitants through natural disasters.
Not showing yourself and trying to convince through magical prophetdom YOU EXIST.
Having shills with pen and paper try to explain your omnipitance to the insect creature (man).
Letting Man create Religion when the human has no business getting into the realms of the afterlife (BECAUSE YOU ARE SILENT UPON THIS-where oh where is the BOOK OF GOD? you wrote right? Hidden where to find).
Mismanagement of the environment, and watching the total trashing of Earth with a "NO COMMENT".
World War I, World War II, the Neopolionic Wars, Adolf Hitler, The Inquistion IN YOUR NAME ALL WARS!!!

If you think God gave us 'life' and we should be thankful for something we ourselves devined and created; YOU God needs to go to trial and face your own atrosities; why? YOU WERE JEALOUS OF US and regailed in the fact we kill each other. This God if carnate and Tangible would have been lynched long ago. UH OH. If we are God/aspect we are killing ourselves not knowing we are subliminally/metaphorically trying to kill our OWN creator parent.

reply to post by Akragon

Dear Akragon,

Do we ever disagree on anything? It starts out all cats and dogs, and ends up with blissful spiritual communion.

Even our biggest disagreement is whether "everlasting fire" is the same as "mythological Hell." Either way, I think I'll ask to be buried in asbestos. We can use your name for it if you want.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Akragon

 

Dear Akragon,

Do we ever disagree on anything? It starts out all cats and dogs, and ends up with blissful spiritual communion.

Even our biggest disagreement is whether "everlasting fire" is the same as "mythological Hell." Either way, I think I'll ask to be buried in asbestos. We can use your name for it if you want.

With respect,
Charles1952

Our beliefs really don't matter in the least simply because they can't change what is...

IF hell actually exists... then im wrong...

HELL!! There might be a trinity... but I don't believe it.... Yet once im standing in front of God, and he said its real... what do I say?

My only argument is that "hell" in terms of the usual Dante's inferno... is a lie... its not logical IF God is a loving "father" as the ONLY person that would actually know said.

Personally I believe "hell" is right here... we're returned here in whatever situation we deserve... but I could be wrong...

No one knows, so we go by what "feels" right...

Right?

reply to post by vethumanbeing


I am thankful to God for life and death,
I am thankful because that is how I best understand things.

By being thankful and accepting what is given, we excel in virtue and faith.

True words seem contradictory - Lao Tzu

reply to post by backcase

True words seem contradictory

Because words are limited by their application. As with any tool, communication is only as effective as its method.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


For once, I understand and agree with you.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Akragon

 

A question I've often asked is: if emulating the principles of Jesus were to guarantee a Christian a seat in Hell, would the Christian still emulate the principles of Jesus? If damnation were our definitive reward for compassion and kindness, how many would still make a point to exercise such virtues?

That, I think, is the true test of the precise extent our survival influences our virtues. I'd be intensely interested to observe the results of that experiment. Because if obedience to any deity is more a survival mechanism than we are encouraged to believe, that belies the morally obligatory aspect of it.

edit on 10-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

That's an interesting question actually...
So hypothetically what would this "hell" be like?
If compassion, charity, and a loving nature lands one in "hell"... would the place be all lovey dovey? Like sitting around singing cumbaya... and playing patty cake?

That would be hellish to me honestly...
Almost more so then any lake of fire

Hell is of your own design, it is not a biblical representation of a lake of fire (the bible was not written by scholars for scholars-it was assumed to be a tome for the illiterate, most of whom (the clergy) could not interpret in first place, but to be interpreted badly or wrongly to suit whatever practical purposes that CHURCH had to expouse or meet its moneyed or political requirements; to the unwashed by clergy members standing at a pulpit. Hell is whatever you fear upon death which is why in the last moments of breath you must utter the sanction "I BELIEVE CHRIST IS MY SAVIOR" last ditch effort so to speak. Truely if you fear spiders you will become one in the afterlife, if you were a murderer you would be in a desolate place without weapons with other predatory humans abounding. Hell is a very imaginative place, (like a holodeck)--what ever you fear presto! you are plagued with just to scare you (not eternally, thats a big fairytail). Upon death say a rightous prayer to the icecream cone and Capt. Kangaroo--or to Walt of course. Hell is everyones right to create for themselves (and you do) UNIQUE to the individual Pilgrims Progress. Fun, as each time this happens the city of hell is more developed and actually will manefest, another Disney World somewhere for believers of the faith (ME TOO IM ALL IN).

reply to post by vethumanbeing


That would be all well and good if that's what was taught to the general public and our children in Christian services. As a matter of fact, that is not what is taught.

Originally posted by backcase
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

I am thankful to God for life and death,
I am thankful because that is how I best understand things.
By being thankful and accepting what is given, we excel in virtue and faith.
True words seem contradictory - Lao Tzu

They are and for a purpose to teach a very fine line of discriminatory thought process; entirely personal (I love Lao Tzu).

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

That would be all well and good if that's what was taught to the general public and our children in Christian services. As a matter of fact, that is not what is taught.

Its not and there is a reason for it. Keep the CHATEL Cattle (some of us are recognising the undermining). Heres the problem, the children are growing smarter with each generation, I rejected organized religion the generations after me are doing so as well; why because it smacks of duplicity, of control, of the HIDDEN of WHAT exactly. The fact one has/WANT to question to do the self introspection is a good thing, not taking as true rote march step this Bible is called better analysis, "wait one second here" take a breather and look at the text as you would Plato or Pythagoris. I suppose the "YOU MUST TAKE THIS ON FAITH ALONE" could convince someone that it is very important and in so being A VERY THREATENING book. But Dr. Suess on another planet could be the same thing. Parents bringing their children to a Sunday Sermon? Okay, WHY. Let the child decide and if wants a Bible next to Whinny the Pooh fine. Its the dark heaviness surrounding the text that bothers me, not uplifting at all, even as a child I feared it because I understood in some deep way it was a tool for evil.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


I open the Tao every now and then for a quick word. I read it through and decided it is the work of a virtuous man.

Originally posted by backcase
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

I open the Tao every now and then for a quick word. I read it through and decided it is the work of a virtuous man.

I open the Oracle as well:

Tarot: You've drawn the Strength Card, you have the power to sort it out.
Psychic: Senses you are not ready for the answer.
Astrology: The Sun urges you to enjoy the attention.
Crystal Ball: Shows an open road ahead.
Tea Leaves: Have formed a rose; the line between pain and pleasure is obscured.
Palmistry: Sees a cross in the palm, which indicates a challenge. Rise to it.
Dice: a roll of number seventeen means success depends on perserverance.

Welcome to my world.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


I do not do any of those things because I think it draws me away from what is important and makes me think about myself to much.

The real goal is to forget myself, divest myself of everything that restricts my spirit, and open myself to the Holy Spirit of God as every holy man explains to do.

Try it some time..Be Filled With the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by backcase

I open the Tao every now and then for a quick word. I read it through and decided it is the work of a virtuous man.

Indeed? And what did you judge it by, I wonder? Remember, everyone is a genius, but a fish will spend eternity believing itself stupid if you judge it by its ability to climb a tree.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I judged it by the conviction and misunderstanding that I felt while reading it, if that makes sense to you.

reply to post by backcase

I judged it by the conviction and misunderstanding that I felt while reading it, if that makes sense to you.

In other words, you judged it subjectively according to your limited comprehension and understanding, like I said before. How very professional.