Obedience

reply to post by AfterInfinity


"That's usually the reason people never get smarter about it. They get confused, they stop paying attention, and they default."

Well yes, if you mean that I never get smarter regarding your own doctrine. I'll certainly pay attention to what I feel needs to be attended to.

When it gets overly complex I tend to opt out.

I guess I'm too simple. I'm a fool for God, if you wish to say so.

as for being convinced of God's existence, this thread was established in faith, I feel like His presence within my life is evidence enough.

reply to post by backcase

as for being convinced of God's existence, this thread was established in faith, I feel like His presence within my life is evidence enough.

Actually, you've simply ascribed certain aspects and events in your life to his theoretical presence, due to your ignorance in regard to the web of causality that surrounds you. There is no shame in this; we are all comparatively infantile when it comes to awareness of the "Causality Sequence", as I call it. An infinitely vast web of variables that all interact to determine every action and reaction in existence.

The definition of faith is belief that is not based on proof. This is the opposite of logic, something that has helped us to define the parameters of the world with which we are familiar. Logically speaking, anything that rejects logic is both unhelpful and irrational. And by extension, obedience to any entity that defies logic is unhelpful and irrational as it defies the laws of your very existence, physically and intellectually speaking.

And if you do find it helpful, then perhaps you are living for the wrong reasons...logically speaking. Of course, if your purpose for existing is at odds with the balance of emotional and psychological perspective most likely to result in prosperity in this day and age, I suppose that is a personal issue that you must ultimately resolve on your own. I am merely making my opinion known in this matter.

reply to post by backcase

Well yes, if you mean that I never get smarter regarding your own doctrine. I'll certainly pay attention to what I feel needs to be attended to.

When it gets overly complex I tend to opt out.

I guess I'm too simple. I'm a fool for God, if you wish to say so.

My doctrine? I don't have a doctrine. I have this little thing called "critical thinking skills". It teaches me how to discern between what is, what could be, what can't be, and what I want.

Simplicity is not always a suitable stand-in for truth. If, in the process, knowledge is sacrificed for the sake of easy organization, simplicity has lost its purpose.

Originally posted by bb23108

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
I'm talking about the doctrine of the Biblical god as presented in the Bible.

Of course you are talking in your usual terms relative to the Creator-God idea - as that is what you love to argue against. But I thought the thread was mainly concerning obedience to God - not so much about one's own understanding of the Divine Reality.

We can let backcase decide on what the limits of his thread are.

In case you missed this request at the bottom of the first page, backcase, I am putting it on the current page.

reply to post by bb23108


I was exploring the devices behind the motivation for obedience to the Biblical god, and explaining my arguments against those devices. I hope that clarifies my position in the matter.

reply to post by AfterInfinity
Okay - and I was simply stating how an actual love relationship to God allows for true obedience. From there you implied something negative with your statement about my "screwball interpretations".

I really have no interest in your anti-Christian agenda, AfterInfinity, because you seem mainly out to get people for your own personal reasons. And when I questioned you about your version of reality, you wouldn't/couldn't answer my questions and never did respond to me. I thought that was the end of our discussions, but apparently not.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


By the "presence of God", I do not mean occurrences or events only.

I mean living in God's presence and love. I suppose that explaining it would do not justice to how I actually feel.

If I were forced to explain it I would say it is the communication of unconditional love, without using words, by God.

reply to post by bb23108

Okay - and I was simply stating how an actual love relationship to God allows for true obedience. From there you implied something negative with your statement about my "screwball interpretations".

Since the terminology you use is based on a personal interpretation of scripture and the obscure layers therein, I have no desire to argue with you about "Creator-Gods" and whatever other labels you use to indicate the ideological figures and affiliate concepts you have formulated in your understanding. This is not the first time we've come to a disagreement due to my disinterest in your peculiar twist on the Judaic mythology, hence my irritable tone.

I really have no interest in your anti-Christian agenda, AfterInfinity, because you seem mainly out to get people for your own personal reasons. And when I questioned you about your version of reality, you wouldn't/couldn't answer my questions and never did respond to me. I thought that was the end of our discussions, but apparently not.

I am promoting the path of spiritual independence, by which one may seek assistance from, but not rely on, the icons that represent the emotional and intellectual capabilities that we have hidden from ourselves. In short, a partnership with the divinity that we ourselves possess, the divinity that connects all of us to the cosmos and to each other - in contrast to a master/slave relationship, where your life and fate lies solely in the hands of whatever deity you hold dear, determined by your recognition and obeisance in regard to that particular icon of metaphysical value.

Think of it as a business. Whereas some view their deity as the CEO of their "business", wherein they themselves are simply stockholders, I promote the possibility of each of us becoming our own CEO, wherein our chosen deity becomes a consultant. In other words, we take the wheel and our deity gives us directions and advice based on what we choose to do. Our destiny is ours to determine, but a map and compass are available for directional purposes.

What question did you ask me concerning reality?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

We went through some dialog on the thread below, about reality - but I am not sure of its relevance to this thread, so post on that thread if you want. However, I do not think we will come to any kind of agreement, so it is fine with me if you leave it be, especially since it was a while ago. Either way...

Here is the link - much of our dialog is on this last page:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by bb23108


You're right, it isn't relevant. I'll review it again and see if I feel any different regarding my inclination to respond.

ETA: I decided to respond.

So backcase, are you inviting anyone to respond to this thread even if they do not believe in the Creator-God that most Christians believe in?

AfterInfinity, I will respond to your other post later. I appreciate you taking the time.

reply to post by bb23108

So backcase, are you inviting anyone to respond to this thread even if they do not believe in the Creator-God that most Christians believe in?

Backcase cannot control who participates in this thread. If you are a registered member and are not banned from posting, you are allowed to post here. So regardless of who s/he invites, I am posting.

reply to post by AfterInfinity
I am just asking him if he considers it off-topic, as I wouldn't want to post if he thinks it is off-topic or irrelevant.

reply to post by backcase

By the "presence of God", I do not mean occurrences or events only.

I mean living in God's presence and love. I suppose that explaining it would do not justice to how I actually feel.

Refer back to my previous post addressed to you. You have ascribed his essence to the state of your being, because you don't have a better answer or aren't interested in finding one. In fact, I would be tempted to compare the Judaic god to the "default mode", where in absence of the communicative skills to adequately explain or describe the state you are experiencing, you just say, "It's the Holy Spirit, bro!"

reply to post by AfterInfinity


AfterInfinity: "My problem with this is that there is very little evidence to suggest that obedience to a higher power is rooted in anything other than a system fabricated by the very minds that were already in thrall to their own pride and egos. In short, your solution was produced by the problem it attempts to solve, and is therefore fallible by the circumstances of its conception"

I understand your viewpoint here. It is true that there is not necessarily very much empirical evidence in support of a higher power. And, despite the fact that the idea of a higher power may be fabricated by our own minds, that does not change the validity or practicality of the deeper philosophy embedded therein......


"The definition of faith is belief that is not based on proof. This is the opposite of logic, something that has helped us to define the parameters of the world with which we are familiar. Logically speaking, anything that rejects logic is both unhelpful and irrational."

Your problem is that you are biased against faith- you see it only as a weakness/acceptance of irrationality, borne mostly from a person's denial and unwillingness to "face the facts" (without this belief, someone feels insecure about their life). This is true in many cases, I admit, and when faith is used simply as an excuse it can get ugly. However, there is still value to faith that you refuse to recognize. The willingness to believe something "irrational" is in fact an embrace of the things that we commonly consider to make us "human." If you read my last post, you would have seen what I said about the fact that faith does not just apply to God, but to all intangible concepts, from morality, to love, etc. Thus, faith is a necessary part to learning about any kind of spirituality.

I'd like you to imagine a world where the only mental device used is logic. Logic enables us to figure out problems about the physical world and what is evident through reason, though that is all. A world based entirely on logic would abandon any "human" aspects such as love and morality, leaving only a cold, computer-like world. Sure, there would probably be such things as laws and cooperation, but these things would be there only because they provide a great survival advantage, not because we could actually consider them "good." Do you see what I'm saying? Faith is necessary to allow us to connect to that which transcends us... and even if "that which transcends us" is not provable, that does not mean it is "irrational" to believe in these things... in fact, if faith is performed in a healthy way, the opposite is actually so.

"And really, I find it hilarious that you demonize ego and pride so much when the god you speak of is the very epitome of ego and pride."

I did not speak anything of the Christian God, in fact I designed my post so it could be applied to any higher concept. And though I do think the philosophy embedded within Christianity (particularly Jesus' teachings) is valuable, I do recognize the fact that the religion is flawed, or at least many peoples' practicing of this religion. That said, for the sake of debate, I will defend the Christian God...

"Why else would he demand worship? Why else would he forbid all other idols? Why else would he demand that a day be set aside to recognize him and him alone? If that's not ego and pride, I don't know what is. Perhaps the biggest hypocrite of all is the Judaic god."

Why would God demand worship? Well, considering that he is pretty much the source of all that exists, can view reality through the context of eternity, and supposedly has unlimited understanding... it does not seem that unreasonable to worship him. To God, though, worship does not mean bowing down to him for his own ego gratification... it means joining him in a relationship that has the aim of mutual understanding. God also does not demand worship- free will is allowed to humans and so you have that choice... even if choosing against following him is against your best interest.

Forbid all other idols? Note that in the Christian religion, God does not forbid all *other* idols, he forbids idols period... including idols of himself. This is simply because items of the world cannot portray God in an accurate way. There is no problem with God's ego here- he is simply steering you away from worldliness.

Why have a Sabbath? Though God clearly is involved, it isn't so much a day for "worshiping" God as a slave might be forced to worship a king, but instead a day for rest, understanding, and appreciation. Is that so bad?

I hope I have made my viewpoint clear... thanks for reading, and I am enjoying debating.

reply to post by bb23108


Anyone can post. If it were off topic then I would have no authority to delete any posts.

But I do think that if the thread was established in faith, then only those of faith will appreciate it for what it is. Others, which are of another category that I spoke of in the OP are basically out of the loop, so I do not consider it off topic when they do not understand what it is to be "on topic" if you will.

reply to post by oak123

I understand your viewpoint here. It is true that there is not necessarily very much empirical evidence in support of a higher power. And, despite the fact that the idea of a higher power may be fabricated by our own minds, that does not change the validity or practicality of the deeper philosophy embedded therein......

It actually does. Does the phrase, "Lead by example" mean anything to you? If we are to emulate the example of the deity exemplified and glorified and exalted in the Bible, we would be committing atrocities for any number of reasons. While Jesus may have preached about love and forgiveness, his supposed father certainly didn't demonstrate it. And guess who everybody worships? Exactly.

Your problem is that you are biased against faith- you see it only as a weakness/acceptance of irrationality, borne mostly from a person's denial and unwillingness to "face the facts" (without this belief, someone feels insecure about their life). This is true in many cases, I admit, and when faith is used simply as an excuse it can get ugly. However, there is still value to faith that you refuse to recognize. The willingness to believe something "irrational" is in fact an embrace of the things that we commonly consider to make us "human." If you read my last post, you would have seen what I said about the fact that faith does not just apply to God, but to all intangible concepts, from morality, to love, etc. Thus, faith is a necessary part to learning about any kind of spirituality.

I see faith as a double edged sword. Where in many cases it gives a man the strength to do what must be done, there are other cases where it fuels the blindspots that drive men to horrendous acts. And in the majority of cases, faith is utilized according to the personality clinging to it. The darker the world, the more vicious and vile the fruits of faith become.

I'd like you to imagine a world where the only mental device used is logic. Logic enables us to figure out problems about the physical world and what is evident through reason, though that is all. A world based entirely on logic would abandon any "human" aspects such as love and morality, leaving only a cold, computer-like world. Sure, there would probably be such things as laws and cooperation, but these things would be there only because they provide a great survival advantage, not because we could actually consider them "good." Do you see what I'm saying? Faith is necessary to allow us to connect to that which transcends us... and even if "that which transcends us" is not provable, that does not mean it is "irrational" to believe in these things... in fact, if faith is performed in a healthy way, the opposite is actually so.

But just as faith tempers logic, so should logic temper faith. And in the matters discussed in this thread, I don't see that happening. The word "obedience" is tossed out as casually as the N word by an Alabama Confederate. And for what? Why are we obedient? Because we don't possess the capacity to control the gifts we have been given? I refuse to believe that. We can be everything we want to be. The problem is that we want the wrong things. Before we can be obedient to any spiritual standard, we must be obedient to the standards we set for ourselves. And we must learn what standards to set for ourselves.

I did not speak anything of the Christian God, in fact I designed my post so it could be applied to any higher concept. And though I do think the philosophy embedded within Christianity (particularly Jesus' teachings) is valuable, I do recognize the fact that the religion is flawed, or at least many peoples' practicing of this religion. That said, for the sake of debate, I will defend the Christian God...

And for the sake of my beliefs, I will continue to oppose your defenses for as long as they exist or until you conclusively prove me wrong.

Why would God demand worship? Well, considering that he is pretty much the source of all that exists, can view reality through the context of eternity, and supposedly has unlimited understanding... it does not seem that unreasonable to worship him.

That's because you're an ignorant human being who still places importance on such paltry gestures as worship. What does a god need with worship? Everything you can ever dream of having or doing is done with a mere thought. Your worship is as meaningless as a thank you note for breathing or eating. Your worship does nothing more than feed the ego of a god who gets a kick out of toying with his little ant farm.

To God, though, worship does not mean bowing down to him for his own ego gratification... it means joining him in a relationship that has the aim of mutual understanding. God also does not demand worship- free will is allowed to humans and so you have that choice... even if choosing against following him is against your best interest.

The term "worship" has never been indicative of an equal relationship. It has never stood for a partnership. The being who worships is the being who is inferior. This is why it worships. Your explanation contradicts the very meaning of worship, the very purpose of it.

Forbid all other idols? Note that in the Christian religion, God does not forbid all *other* idols, he forbids idols period... including idols of himself. This is simply because items of the world cannot portray God in an accurate way. There is no problem with God's ego here- he is simply steering you away from worldliness.

If no earthly icon can portray "God" accurately, then how is it that so many humans pretend to possess such clear understanding of his nature and intentions? And rather than obscurity engendering doubt within their minds, it simply fuels their certainty! The less they know, the more they believe! It's ridiculous!

Why have a Sabbath? Though God clearly is involved, it isn't so much a day for "worshiping" God as a slave might be forced to worship a king, but instead a day for rest, understanding, and appreciation. Is that so bad?

Looking through the NT and the OT, I wouldn't describe "God" as appreciate, rest, and understanding. These words are comparable to the little tricks and gambits that politicians pull to earn the favor of the people they plan on screwing over eventually.

"God" has never done anything without planning to receive something in return. He is incapable of losing, which means he is incapable of demonstrating what we really mean to him. All his gestures are meaningless because all of his gestures are effortless. They possess exactly the same amount of energy and planning as a breath of air. It's difficult for me to respect something that simple, because it represents a distinct lack of sincerity. The less effort required, the less sacrifice necessary, the less sincerity it offers.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


While I can barely grasp what you are saying,
I will respond to the best of my ability.

If I do not know God,
I do not fear,
God knows me.

Call it "defaulting",
call it what you wish.

But God sees me for who I am and knows my heart is full of love.

reply to post by backcase

While I can barely grasp what you are saying,
I will respond to the best of my ability.

If I do not know God,
I do not fear,
God knows me.

Call it "defaulting",
call it what you wish.

But God sees me for who I am and knows my heart is full of love.

It's called "critical thinking skills". It comes as no surprise to learn that you have difficulty keeping up. Perhaps you should brush up on your own set of skills, and learn to think properly about that which you would devote your life to. It's no small decision, and you sell yourself short if you do anything less.