Why should Immoral people change?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by logical7

 

I'm pretty sure wild already answered your question about who keeps track of karma earlier in this thread.

Your own soul keeps track of it, and once you die you are given what you gave based on your own actions. I've only been half keeping up with the thread lately and I still remembered that part.

Also, how is someone going through rebirth not considered reincarnation? In fact, you just explained reincarnation to a tee! Good job, maybe you are learning something.

i understand reincarnation, i don't think its true just like i understand and can explain trinity, i don't consider it to be true.

There is a problem if our own soul decides karma, it should then know whats right and if it knows why a person doesn't do it? Thats the reason i proposed the "two parts soul" theory. I proposing it does not mean that i consider it true!
I just want to show that all this is conjencture made to somehow give validity to an already chosen belief. Its the same as the hypostases theory to explain trinity.
Anyone who is smart enough can make a theory then notice the problems in it and start giving explanations like clover leaf, two part soul etc.
Nothing is proved to be true but it gives a psychological certainty to the believers that their belief must be the One that makes the most sense! Like the fully man, fully God idea, can't argue with that one! and its played as a trump card to win any arguement! It could as well be a theory that "what i say is true because holy Spirit is guiding me"!!

I don't believe in reincarnation nor rebirths, i was just discussing it.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by logical7

 

Wouldn't praying be considered actively asking for things to benefit the body in this life? You can't honestly tell me you've never prayed to have a safe trip or not to die on said trip, can you? Oh, and praying before you eat is done because of the benefits that food gives to your body.

But I digress, I don't want to steer this conversation in a different direction than what it's currently on.

when did i say we can't seek benefits for our body? I said that we shouldn't wrong ourself or others while seeking them.

If i tell you that i'l give you 20 dollars everytime you say to yourself "i am a pathetic loser"(and do a self humiliating act) you could make a lot of money but you'l also start believing that statement at some point and i would be the Devil

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

ah again that "you not a parent yet so you don't know as well as i do" card wildtimes!!

And it's true, like it or not. Until you experience the profound, willing-to-die, do-anything feelings of a parent, you will not understand what "God as Father" is supposed to be reflective of. It just is what it is.
Sorry you don't believe me, but one day you'll find out, if you become a caring, loving parent.

God has more mercy on His individual creation than a mother for her newborn.
The difference between our view is that you think that humans created a merciful God because they have that feeling and i say that God is extremely merciful and He created us with part of these feeling coded in us.
To prove your point show me that compassion,mercy etc have just sprung up in humans and animals by evolution or some other mechanism.
To realise the benefit of compassion it requires a very high level of reasoning, even humans are failing to do it.
It must have been coded by a Higher Power.

If you disagree then tell me how you think compassion came about into existence (got coded into DNA)?

reply to post by logical7

God has more mercy on His individual creation than a mother for her newborn.

Wow. You really don't know what you're talking about here. Sure, there are cruel, uncaring, abusive parents who use threats and fear to control their children.
There are also VERY GOOD, loving, devoted, careful, responsible PARENTS - especially among the more educated.
Your talk about Indian women drowning their infant girls points to the depravity of the uneducated and poor, NOT to a merciful "God".

The difference between our view is that you think that humans created a merciful God because they have that feeling

No, I do not think that. The IMAGE of "God" that humans first "created" was born of fear of death, illness, natural disasters, and a basic desire to know what the hell is going on here, which is OBVIOUSLY not under OUR control.

and i say that God is extremely merciful and He created us with part of these feeling coded in us.

Possibly.

To prove your point show me that compassion,mercy etc have just sprung up in humans and animals by evolution or some other mechanism.
To realise the benefit of compassion it requires a very high level of reasoning, even humans are failing to do it.
It must have been coded by a Higher Power.

I've told you over and over that I think there is a "source" or "Creator" that set things in motion. Our dispute is that the "revealed word" is hearsay and imagination and IMPOSSIBLE to prove, because every "religion" thinks theirs is the "only right and true one." The TRUTH is that the only "true and right" thing is the TRUE AND RIGHT THING for EVERYONE.

I don't think it matters what we wear, what we eat, what direction we face, what religious building we go to, or what we think the name of the "Creator" is.

If you disagree then tell me how you think compassion came about into existence (got coded into DNA)?

I've told you 3 times now - I think we are only a blip on the dial that is beyond our capability to see right now - it was set in motion at some point so that now we are here, under the circumstances that we see and live and breathe every day - and which has to keep moving in its own time and way, no matter what we puny specks on this rock "think".

It's supremely arrogant to think that we are the only concern of the Creative Force behind that picture, logical7, and were "created to worship it." That's just bizarre thinking. The only thing that matters is love and caring for one another and this planet.

reply to post by logical7

If i tell you that i'l give you 20 dollars everytime you say to yourself "i am a pathetic loser"(and do a self humiliating act) you could make a lot of money but you'l also start believing that statement at some point and i would be the Devil

You think that's FUNNY??

THAT'S EXACTLY what the Abrahamic religions tell people, and it RUINS their lives - only they don't get "the $20," they have to PAY the preacher for telling them they are pathetic losers bound for hell with no way out except to believe it and "worship" in the way the preacher wants them to.

reply to post by wildtimes

Wow. You really don't know what you're talking about here. Sure, there are cruel, uncaring, abusive parents who use threats and fear to control their children. There are also VERY GOOD, loving, devoted, careful, responsible PARENTS - especially among the more educated. Your talk about Indian women drowning their infant girls points to the depravity of the uneducated and poor, NOT to a merciful "God".

WHAT? i dont know what i am talking??

Let me tell you wildtimes you have selective perception, you see in my replies what you want to see because you already expect me to have typical christian like ideas. Read what i say, communicate with ME, not the image of me that you have created in your head!

I only said God is extremely Merciful, why you brought up abusive parents? Can we focus here? Everyone knows your views, is it necessary to keep repeating them in every post??

reply to post by wildtimes

I've told you 3 times now - I think we are only a blip on the dial that is beyond our capability to see right now - it was set in motion at some point so that now we are here, under the circumstances that we see and live and breathe every day - and which has to keep moving in its own time and way, no matter what we puny specks on this rock "think". It's supremely arrogant to think that we are the only concern of the Creative Force behind that picture, logical7, and were "created to worship it." That's just bizarre thinking. The only thing that matters is love and caring for one another and this planet.

3 times in the same post! Once would have been enough.

Its acually supremely insulting to the Creator that you think, It Created something So BIG, that It can't possibly keep track of everything. Your idea of God is anthropomorphic in a sense that you impose human limitation on Him in regard to His ability to pay attention on every event that happens in the Universe.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

If i tell you that i'l give you 20 dollars everytime you say to yourself "i am a pathetic loser"(and do a self humiliating act) you could make a lot of money but you'l also start believing that statement at some point and i would be the Devil

You think that's FUNNY??

THAT'S EXACTLY what the Abrahamic religions tell people, and it RUINS their lives - only they don't get "the $20," they have to PAY the preacher for telling them they are pathetic losers bound for hell with no way out except to believe it and "worship" in the way the preacher wants them to.

not in my religion, prophet Muhammad pbuh told that every individual is like a gold/silver mine.

About the funny part, if you don't get the joke, you don't get the joke.

Are you telling me during your professional work, you did not encounter anyone who ran after money and fame even at the expense of wronging others and self but ultimately ended up unhappy and dejected.

reply to post by wildtimes

The only thing that matters is love and caring for one another and this planet.

do you think Abrahamic religions don't teach the same?
If people don't follow it and want to be lead like mindless sheep then its their choice.
If you start an organisation with your beliefs and it grows and then some members in it start doing horrible things will you agree that the organisation and its teachings are responsible.

What preachers do was not taught by Jesus pbuh,
what muslim extremists do was not taught by Muhammad pbuh.

People have a choice, not everyone who claims to belong to a religion does not follow it.
How wise is it to judge a religion by observing the members who don't follow it?
If a muslim guy in europe rapes a woman and the report says he was drunk and a know drug addict, how valid it is to still take him as a representative of Islam?
The same for a christian or any other religion.
People abuse anything that can arouse strong emotions be it religion or patriotism. I don't see you advocating for abolishing patriotism maybe you are even proud of your country. Why?

reply to post by logical7

People abuse anything that can arouse strong emotions be it religion or patriotism.

Correct.

I don't see you advocating for abolishing patriotism maybe you are even proud of your country.

What? No

Why?

What? You must not read the other forums, or you would see my very clear denouncement of the 'moral direction' to which the USA has turned. I'm no "patriot", and I'm CERTAINLY not a 'religious' person.
The ONLY THING that I support is WORLD PEACE, and caring for EVERYONE.
gha

reply to post by logical7

What preachers do was not taught by Jesus pbuh,

Correct.

what muslim extremists do was not taught by Muhammad pbuh.

Correct.

reply to post by logical7

3 times in the same post! Once would have been enough.

Again.....WHAT?!!!

I've told you this 3 times in DIFFERENT, SEPARATE posts, in DIFFERENT THREADS!

And yet, and still, you pretend to have read those posts, (which you have actually not). Neither that, NOR do you appear to TO HAVE added them up for a better point of view on my beliefs.

Or else, your reading and English comprehension are lacking.
Which is something I suspected earlier.

reply to post by logical7

you already expect me to have typical christian like ideas.

What?

Read what i say, communicate with ME,

I AM TRYING

not the image of me that you have created in your head!

I am trying.

only said God is extremely Merciful, why you brought up abusive parents?

YOU were the one that brought up Indian Hindu mothers drowning their daughters in the hope that 'renicarnation' would help.

Can we focus here?

I'm trying, truly.

Everyone knows your views, is it necessary to keep repeating them in every post??

Oh.
So, now it's not 3 times in one post, but it's EVERY POST?
Okay. So, good. You know my views. My work is done here.
Take care, log7.

reply to post by wildtimes

I've told you this 3 times in DIFFERENT, SEPARATE posts, in DIFFERENT THREADS! And yet, and still, you pretend to have read those posts, (which you have actually not). Neither that, NOR do you appear to TO HAVE added them up for a better point of view on my beliefs.

its the 1st time you are admitting that a Higher power may have coded compassion mercy and other feelings.
Yes you have told your view about there being a Source, a Creator but its not enough as you have your own view about attributes of that Source and you have not really elaborated on them.

You have accepted that God has coded feelings in creations, how far are you from acknowledging that God may have created Morality..

reply to post by logical7


You keep talking to me like you think I'm an atheist, when I KNOW you read about Deism and Thomas Paine when I was reading it, too!

You keep saying we were "created to worship" God, and that is what I disagree with. I have never set forth any position that DENIES that evolution and all things.living and inanimate, were created by an unknown, unseen, unfathomable source.

I give up, logical7. I guess I don't have the moral fortitude to continue repeating myself to you when it's obviously pointless and you intend to just be contrary.

reply to post by logical7


In my professional work I served the POOR and DISENFRANCHISED. The rich don't go to "community mental health centers." They donate to them. Which means the directors and fundraisers SUCK UP to them to get their money - and don't ask questions about how the money was acquired - which is often by cheating.

On the other hand, in my PRIVATE life I have known one person - a friend from high school who I kept up with for about 25 years - who married a rich, ambitious guy, and they lived in a fancy neighborhood and went to country clubs and so forth - and she was a snob and a phoney in the end.

I knew of "rich little Jewish American Princesses" and got very acquainted with one, who was miserable - an only child of a Wall Street big bank executive - a very messed up young lady.

My daughter was not like those girls.

So, I got a taste of how they are by visiting my daughter while she was in private university on a scholarship - while many of the American students were rich, their parents paid for EVERYTHING (they were affectonately called 'the Rents'), they didn't have to work, and they were spoiled, shallow brats. They were snarky, and their mothers were just the same as they were. There were also MANY foreign students from Asia and the Middle East who were decent kids, hardworking, mannerly, and humble. THOSE were her friends, and a couple of girls who were genuinely kind and hard-working.

My daughter knows how to tell good character, though, and she let go of EVERY ONE of those acquaintances when the girls or young men showed their true colors as phony snobs. Stop trying to assume you know my life and my mind.

You don't, and at this rate you never will. Because 'why?' You don't really want to. You're determined to damn me no matter what I say - and so, again, I have run out of ideas.

reply to post by wildtimes


You've touched on a very good point. Nearly all main stream religions use guilt as a means of control over their people. Christians. Jews. Muslims. The people are told that they will go to hell if they leave the faith, or that they are evil if they leave, etc etc. GUILT, preached by the major religions, is what holds a lot of people in their respective religions.

Originally posted by logical7
prophet Muhammad pbuh told that every individual is like a gold/silver mine..

I dunno ... the Qu'ran is full of statements about how evil non-muslims are.
I'd be more than happy to post a few about how Muslims shouldn't be friends with
Christians or Jews because they are the vilest of animals and unjust and are losers ...
And that the children of Christians and Jews are hell bound ... and how all women,
including Muslim women, aren't bright and can't control their sexual desires ....

That's not exactly saying everyone is a gold/silver mine ... ya' know??

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

You keep talking to me like you think I'm an atheist, when I KNOW you read about Deism and Thomas Paine when I was reading it, too!

You keep saying we were "created to worship" God, and that is what I disagree with. I have never set forth any position that DENIES that evolution and all things.living and inanimate, were created by an unknown, unseen, unfathomable source.

I give up, logical7. I guess I don't have the moral fortitude to continue repeating myself to you when it's obviously pointless and you intend to just be contrary.

i know you are not an atheist. Many of your thoughts and ideas do match with atheists. I think thats the problem, i criticize them as atheistic and you feel that i am thinking of you as an atheist. Very honestly, i don't understand your idea of God and you don't clear it.

I think you'l agree with worshipping God if i explain it better, say a bird is created by God and it sings beautifully, then thats its worship by using the talent God gave it to make the world beautiful.

If God gave us compassion then we are worshipping God by showing it to God's creation be it feeding a hungry poor kid or treating an injured animal and being aware that the compassion is a gift not our own achievement so that being good does not go to our head and make us self-righteous and we start looking down towards other "less" compassionate ones, they have their own story to play out and we can't judge anyone.

We have been given all the talents, mercy and compassion to make this world peaceful and beautiful.
But rather than using the talents for this end, most will use them for selfish gains(self worship)

A small percentage of world military budget can eradicate hunger.
A bit more awareness and less wasting of food by people in developed countries can feed millions.(you seem to be the person who understand this and have taught this to your kids, but you are a minority)

its a human need to make someone/something as a centre around which their life will revolve, thats worship of a kind.
If this centre is wrong or shallow then it will affect the behaviour and morals too.
You may be having more better centre/s(your family/humanity) and so you are a good person.

So do you agree that a Higher Centre is required for better morals? The Higher the Centre the better the morals?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
prophet Muhammad pbuh told that every individual is like a gold/silver mine..

I dunno ... the Qu'ran is full of statements about how evil non-muslims are.
I'd be more than happy to post a few about how Muslims shouldn't be friends with
Christians or Jews because they are the vilest of animals and unjust and are losers ...
And that the children of Christians and Jews are hell bound ... and how all women,
including Muslim women, aren't bright and can't control their sexual desires ....

That's not exactly saying everyone is a gold/silver mine ... ya' know??

i'l like you to post the verses from Qur'an that say the above and i'l ask a favour that you use a translation from a non anti-Islamic site, the best would be some academic university site and post the full verse.