Why should Immoral people change?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

They need to have a desire to see their fellow man prosper and have a better life than they desire for themselves.

YAY!!!!

See, I sometimes agree with you, NuT!!
So, how does an immoral person do that (change to having a desire to see others do well and be safe) without "fear" of God's punishment if they don't do it? What if that FEAR is the only reason they think that way? Is it sincere?

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I really don't think anything will motivate them. Immoral behavior has been around since Cain murdered Abel. We're humans who have been affected by the nature to sin and do evil things to one another for any variety of reasons.

i think fear motivates them to remain in check, if not fear of God then fear of moral people who will not tolerate immorality, ofcourse moral people should be a majority for that.

Refer to my previous post.

God is not needed to instill moral values on people, it comes naturally with growth. If that were the case, atheists would be the main reason for violence in the world, but in most cases it is the religious that commit immoral acts in the name of their god.

All those militant Muslims? They worship the same god as you.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I'm guessing you are fishing for a particular answer? If god were needed for morality, you'd never see religious people killing one another and you'd only see atheists acting immoral.

i am not looking for a particular answer, i have an answer and looking for it to be refuted.

Immoral people use a lot of excuses to cover up their immorality, God is number 1 excuse. It does not in anyway reflect on God. The motivation to kill is something else, mostly power/dominance. God is just the excuse.
I am yet to meet a person who did a wrong out of greed and said "i did it because i am greedy"
or the pope who started the crusades say,
"i just am afraid that Islam will grow and church would lose power so go fight and die for my selfishness"

reply to post by Akragon

sounds very OT to me... Why do we need to fear God... isn't it said entity that gives life?

not fear God for no reason, rather fear God's Justice.
At least fear when/if we are knowingly doing a wrong to someone.

reply to post by logical7

i am not looking for a particular answer, i have an answer and looking for it to be refuted.

Perhaps you might share with us.......What is your answer? That would get the discussion really going.....
rather than us "pussy-footing" around it trying to figure it out.
Get to the point, man!

reply to post by wildtimes

is smoking "immoral"? Not in my thinking.

NO, smoking its not immoral, but it sure is unhealthy.
It could be another topic, "do we have a right to harm our own body sloooowly?"

reply to post by logical7

Well, some science shows that nicotine actually has lots of benefits. But yeah, that's another thread (already in progress), and its not mine.

What about beer?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by wildtimes

 

If I'm going to hell for smoking, at least I'll never have to worry about losing my lighter.

no hell for smoking but hope you are not doing it over the dead body of a man you just killed!!

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by wildtimes

 

is smoking "immoral"? Not in my thinking.

NO, smoking its not immoral, but it sure is unhealthy.
It could be another topic, "do we have a right to harm our own body sloooowly?"

Going outside without SPF 25 does that.
So does eating processed meat and refined sugars.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

They need to have a desire to see their fellow man prosper and have a better life than they desire for themselves.

YAY!!!!

See, I sometimes agree with you, NuT!!

So, how does an immoral person do that (change to having a desire to see others do well and be safe) without "fear" of God's punishment if they don't do it? What if that FEAR is the only reason they think that way? Is it sincere?

edit on 5-5-2013 by wildtimes because: cinco de mayo

Love is a far greater motivating attribute than fear.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Love is a far greater motivating attribute than fear.

High Five.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by logical7

 

So why do you believe a god is needed in order for us to know right from wrong? The Piraha tribe of the Amazon have no concept of god, yet they still know right from wrong.

the tribe knows it because each baby is born with it. Its the society that corrupts it an God is needed to restore it. The tribe may already have a belief of no god yet maintained their sense of right and wrong.

reply to post by wildtimes

I don't get the "if criminal law is made on forgiveness" part.

i meant if punishments of horrible crimes are too lenient(due to mercy/forgiveness) then it will indirectly encourage(not discourage) those crimes.

reply to post by logical7

the tribe knows it because each baby is born with it. Its the society that corrupts it an God is needed to restore it. The tribe may already have a belief of no god yet maintained their sense of right and wrong.

Do you see how you are saying that it is innate? That babies are born with it?

People don't have to belong to an Amazonian tribe to know right from wrong! So you are blaming 'society' as the corrupter? People still have a sense of right and wrong, even in "modern societies" that aren't "theocratic".

reply to post by logical7

i meant if punishments of horrible crimes are too lenient(due to mercy/forgiveness) then it will indirectly encourage(not discourage) those crimes.

It appears that there are "judicial systems" that you consider to be "too lenient."

Is this a push for Sharia?

reply to post by wildtimes

Who ever said that criminal law is made on "forgiveness",

the whole abolishing of capital punishment thing.

Only atheist can think that a criminal who did not value another life should be allowed to live as their is nothing after death and the one who died is already dead so lets not worry about the victim.

reply to post by logical7

Only atheist can think that a criminal who did not value another life should be allowed to live as their is nothing after death and the one who died is already dead so lets not worry about the victim.

WHAT?!!!

That is preposterous. Wow. So, you're advocating that "we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong." I saw a bumper sticker about that very idea that started out with "WHY DO we kill people, etc."

"ONLY AN ATHEIST can think that a criminal ... should be allowed to live"?

REALLY?
Again, wow.

reply to post by wildtimes

Why does FEAR need to be involved? ???????????

good people are ok, bad people need fear to prevent them from doing bad things.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Well, I was speaking on the macro- level. If you want to know what changes a person on the micro, or individual level then people need to abandon selfishness, abandon greed. People need to be motivated to serve others, to care more about their wellbeing and needs more than one's own. They need to have a desire to see their fellow man prosper and have a better life than they desire for themselves.

yes, but why would anyone do that?
I think a God concious person would naturally do it.
What about the others?

Phew!!!
I'l get back to the other posts later, gota go.