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Why should Immoral people change?

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posted on May, 24 2013 @ 08:10 AM
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Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
i am certain because i have testimonials from expert witnesses like Jesus pbuh and Muhammad pbuh and documents/scripture that make sense and answer all my questions.

... and yet Muhammad contradicted the New Testament and what Jesus said.
So how exactly are you so certain when you are using two opposing sources
to base your 'morality' on??

morality is the same, its a certain part of belief that is different.
Jesus pbuh came to restore a balance between following law and having mercy and compassion, he found the latter missing and taught that, Prophet Muhammad pbuh came to pagan lawless arabs so taught laws and compassion.



Are you saying they had the same message?


edit on 24-5-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 24 2013 @ 08:28 AM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7
 



reincarnation is equally outrageous, resurrection for Jesus pbuh can be simply suspended animation.

Yet you live in India, which is one of the most prolific places producing children remembering past lives, and people believing those children ARE reincarnated.

MOST of the scientific studies done have been on cases reported IN INDIA! The Buddhists also believe in it.

So, this points to your "anti-Hindu" thinking. Which mirrors your "anti-West" thinking. And I guess even your "anti-Buddhist" thinking.

really?
People report of seeing heaven and hell too and i made a thread explaining reincarnation stories.
I am anti-hindu, anti-buddhist because i dont believe in reincarnation

then you are anti-muslim and anti-christian because you don't believe in Hell!



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 08:40 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
i am certain because i have testimonials from expert witnesses like Jesus pbuh and Muhammad pbuh and documents/scripture that make sense and answer all my questions.

... and yet Muhammad contradicted the New Testament and what Jesus said.
So how exactly are you so certain when you are using two opposing sources
to base your 'morality' on??

morality is the same, its a certain part of belief that is different.
Jesus pbuh came to restore a balance between following law and having mercy and compassion, he found the latter missing and taught that, Prophet Muhammad pbuh came to pagan lawless arabs so taught laws and compassion.



Are you saying they had the same message?


YES.
Both are pieces of a grand puzzle, coming at a time, playing their part and giving the same message. God is One, love God with all of heart, mind and strength and be good to neighbour, prophet Muhammad pbuh said that Gabriel reminded him so much to be good to neighbours that he thought soon he will bring a command to include them in inheritance. Muhammad pbuh also said that a person is NOT a muslim if he sleeps full stomach while his neighbour sleeps hungry!

Very same, right?



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7
 


LMAO!!

Im glad to be on this side of the fence...

I mean, wrestling with two strong women might be fun...


but debating morality... from a stance where women are beneath men...


That's like coming to a gun fight with a golf club...


enjoy the show!
I don't think women are beneath men, i think and i heard this from a muslim scholar that women are the deluxe model of humans and men the regular

women are amazing and need to be respected and cherished.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7
 


who is remembering it to punish me in next rebirth? And whatever that program is knows killing is wrong so it knows morality.

Your Own Soul is remembering. Your SOUL knows killing is wrong.....
it does NOT take a 'father figure' or 'overseer' threatening you to burning in hell to see that!!

i expected this reply.
Two problems.
1) Still the souls need to communicate to dispense karma, it would have to be a network of souls, a collective intelligence. It takes intelligence to create intelligence.
2)if my soul knows its wrong, who needs to learn it?? If my soul already knows what standard morality is, it is always ready to join the source just waiting to escape the prison. No reincarnation needed. If my soul needs to learn like you said long back and if it can get tainted with immorality by my concious immoral decisions then something outside needs to record it to give customized karma lessons in this life or inrebirths,

so either you let go reincarnation if you think soul is self reproaching and uncorruptible
OR
you accept an outside, Aware Force that handles karma and teaches lessons when souls may be ignorant or corrupted to keep believing in reincarnation.
edit on 24-5-2013 by logical7 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by sacgamer25
If a woman found such a man would she accept him as the leader of the house and be happy to love him?

- Happy to love him? Yes.
- Leader of the house? There is no 'leader of the house'. Married people are a team. All decisions are discussed and made togther.


Life at times can be fight or flight. Other times there is simply a disagreement, especially about finance. When these two situations occur one must allow the other to lead. If the man is the type of man I am describing, most women will give in to the husband and even support him in a decision that she does not completely agree with simply because she loves him and trusts him enough.

In most situations we should consider ourselves 100% equal. But sometimes a decision simply has to be made, in these situations the woman should be married to a man that she wants to listen too. If he is the man I describe she will love him enough to accept his decision as final in a disagreement.

The only time the woman should absolutely go against her husband is if his decision is obviously against love. Then her obligation to God is greater than her obligation to her husband. If the dispute is about finances or something that is not for/against love a strong women will be strong enough to let her strong loving husband lead. She should, through her love, even support her husband with the decision he made.

This is what the bible says, this is the type of man I believe most women want, and the type of man I try to be every day. I am quite, shy, rather feminine, a lover not a fighter. But I am highly logical, intelligent, and prone to leadership.

In every relationship there are disagreements and it has been my observation that strong women can support a strong man even when they don't agree. This is the type of women I believe that most men want. A women who will stick up for herself, who has a strong voice, but who loves her husband enough to at times to defer to his leadership.

This is the type of marriage that the bible says is best for us. I agree with the bible. Human nature, where the male is the more physically dominant and the female is the more spiritually dominate, dictates these roles perfectly. At times the spiritually dominate partner has to defer to the physically dominate partner simply to satisfy his need to be physically dominate, and her natural attraction to that dominance.

Not too many women want a week man, so to not allow your man at least some dominance, would be to take away from him one of the qualities that likely attracted you to him.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by sacgamer25
If the women does not find love, maybe it is right for her to cover her head, but again this also would be her choice.

I don't understand this statement. Would you explain? Thanks.



You can only find God's love when you do what is acceptable to God. As you have already stated no one can really tell anyone else what moral code/or religious views are right for them.

If a women believes that God wants her to cover her hair, than she should. If she believes that God, does not need her to cover her hair than she should do as she pleases. For the one that does not believe covers her hair only out of ritual, this does nothing for her spiritually.

The women who believes that to love God is to cover one's hair, she will likely not find God's love apart from covering her hair. Because her religion, that she believes, dictates that she cover her hair in a loving show to God, she does indeed cover her hair to show God her love. These women will only be happy with her hair covered. There is no reason for you, or anyone to attempt to change her opinion, what she is doing she is doing for God. I promise if she is covering her hair because she loves God, than she will receive God's love in her heart, there is no reason for her to change.

Each woman has to decide for herself what is right. The only reward in religion are the things you do because you love God. Anything done solely for the sake of ritual cannot bring you any closer to God's love, because it was ritual that you were pursuing and not love.

1. I don't eat meat because my religion says not too.
2. I don't eat meat because I think killing animals to eat their flesh is bad.
3. I don't eat meat because being a vegetarian is healthy.
4. I don't eat meat because I love God and I believe that he wants me to abstain from the eating of meat.

Covering your hair, eating meat, observing special days, these are all rituals. These are all debatable accept with the one who is doing it to love God. We should never take anyone's religion away who demonstrates the ability to love God and love one another. For this person find's Gods love when they perform the ritual, because it is God's love that has inspired them.

For the one who perfoms the ritual to be obediant to God's love, the ritual does indeed bring them closer to God, even if you don't agree with or understand it.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 09:52 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 





why? Just like we feel like guarding lower animals?

"Yes, just like that. But I know you don't give a crap about 'lower animals'"

WHAT!! You have no clue about my feelings for animals so don't assume, i know you love animals but you are not the only one and me not agreeing with you does not automatically make me a cruel animal hater etc.

No. They would not be 'angels' if they
were cruel to ANYONE.

thats a very fairy tale belief but ok lets work with it. If they can't be cruel then they either don't have free choice like humans or they are evolved morally and only do the right things, so do you think that they have gone through a stage like us humans going now and learned or they have no free choice?



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 10:53 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


I don't think we are cursed!

Other than that, i agree with you and thanks for helping me clear my view.
I don't know why when a statement says "a woman should obey her husband" its assumed that its FORCED and the husand doesnt have to earn it or that the husband shouldnt have to be equally respectful and dedicated.
For God, men and women are equal spiritually and as accountable individuals but they are not similar and its injustice to tell a woman to feel/think/behave in all things like a man for equality sake.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


1) Still the souls need to communicate to dispense karma, it would have to be a network of souls, a collective intelligence.
Yes. We are all connected.

It takes intelligence to create intelligence.
This makes no sense toward the discussion.

2)if my soul knows its wrong, who needs to learn it?? If my soul already knows what standard morality is, it is always ready to join the source just waiting to escape the prison.

People make mistakes, use poor judgment, and need to learn. We have inbuilt feelings like 'guilt', 'shame', 'remorse,' 'regret' and self-recrimination.

Religion often makes those feelings WORSE and then reinforces them with messages of unworthiness and failure. It's a vicious, self-perpetuating cycle.

No reincarnation needed.

Nope, not if you're perfect! That's the point!! Once you become 'perfected' you rejoin the common source. VERY VERY FEW people alive are 'perfect' - and in my theory, they have come VOLUNTARILY to help. EXPERIENCE and HINDSIGHT are critical to learning.

If my soul needs to learn like you said long back and if it can get tainted with immorality by my concious immoral decisions then something outside needs to record it to give customized karma lessons in this life or inrebirths,

I don't agree. It's a built-in thing, and anyone raised by loving, careful parents will internalize those lessons. But they will STILL make mistakes out of passion, carelessness, or poor judgment.

This world goes too fast for everyone to make careful, perfect decisions on their feet every moment of every situation. That's why PARENTING is so hard. Again, you won't understand that until you become a parent.


so either you let go reincarnation if you think soul is self reproaching and uncorruptible
OR
you accept an outside, Aware Force that handles karma and teaches lessons when souls may be ignorant or corrupted to keep believing in reincarnation.

No, and no. Neither of those.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 11:12 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


thats a very fairy tale belief but ok lets work with it.
Like "religion" isn't?


If they can't be cruel then they either don't have free choice like humans or they are evolved morally and only do the right things,

B

so do you think that they have gone through a stage like us humans going now and learned or they have no free choice?

Angels are not human beings. They never WERE human beings. WHY must you anthropomorphize EVERYTHING?



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 11:18 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 



i am certain because i have testimonials from expert witnesses like Jesus pbuh and Muhammad pbuh and documents/scripture that make sense and answer all my questions.

NEITHER of those guys wrote ANYTHING down, EVER, so no, you don't have "testimonials" from them.
Which makes those documents arguable. And they are argued over every day all around the world.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by logical7
I don't agree that you are hitting me on head with "facts"
they are your opinions and perceptions.

I dunno' about that. I'm pretty sure its a FACT that women in Iran and Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan are mistreated if they don't bow to what the men consider 'moral' .. such as head coverings and not driving, etc etc


But its also wrong to claim immoral things as ok

... and we are back to the beginning. Different people claim different things are immoral. So we can't tell someone that what they are doing is immoral so they have to change because ... what they think is immoral may not be. Again .. the Iran Morals Police example .... Those men are convinced that what they are doing is moral and that the women are immoral and they force their version of morality on others .... even though they are wrong.

See?



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by logical7
NT is my moral guide too and the Qur'an they are teaching the same morality.

They contradict each other. The new Qu'ran contradicts the old New Testament.

The stopping of immorality is a duty of people who know better.

That's the same battlecry of the misogynistic morals police in Iran.

whats the word to describe a woman who thinks other women are dumb and stupid because they make a different choice?!

straw man ridiculum on your part.

Do you also want to put convert muslim women in therapy or something?

I'd love for muslim women to be free. But no, I never said that the half billion muslim women in the world should be in therapy. Although I have no doubt that many of those who escape Islam need a lot of help adjusting to the year 2013.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


If you wish to live like that and it works for you .. fine. But in this house it doesn't work that way. In the homes of everyone around us it doesn't work that way. Example -

I want a kitten. A beautiful calico kitten. My husband and i discussed it and he said it would be too much money and effort considering my health and that we already have a dog with health issues. So when he said 'no' ... I accepted that.

My husband really wants a motorcycle. We discussed it. I told him that it was too expensive .. that we didn't need the extra expense of motorcycle insurance ... and it is too dangerous. I said 'no'. He had to accept that.

It's a team. We both have equal say. If one person says 'no' .... it's no for both of us.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 



I don't think women are beneath men, i think and i heard this from a muslim scholar that women are the deluxe model of humans and men the regular
women are amazing and need to be respected and cherished.

Then why are you fighting us and telling us we are wrong?



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 11:41 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Too bad about the kitten.
And you're right about the motorcycle.


My husband loves kittehs, (even though when I first met him and was getting to know him he used to make nasty remarks about "barbecuing" them, and acted hateful about them. It was all an act, though, I found out later; and he admitted it.

He has always ALWAYS had motorcycles. And he is the breadwinner. He wanted to buy a new motorcycle, and I said, "honey, if you want a new motorcycle, go buy a new motorcycle." He loves to tell people about that, saying "she said the words every guy wants to hear".

So he paid cash for a brand new HD Dyna wide-glide a year ago. It set us back $20,000, but that was his choice. Then he wanted to park it IN THE HOUSE like he'd done with the other, MUCH SMALLER bike, and which I allowed.
I said, "no. It's not coming in the house." He had to live with that. And I have to live with knowing that motorcycles are dangerous and he's riding one and drives faster than I think is safe, and that he resents not having it parked in the HOUSE. When I ride with him, he goes more slowly, out of respect for me.

That is team-work. We don't always agree, but we do discuss things.

edit on 24-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 

IMHO God can do whatever He wants. If He thinks some people need to come back for reincarnation, then He'll have them come back. If He thinks some people can move on to 'Heaven', then they'll move on. Some may have such a low vibration (or big sin debt on their soul ... or bad karma ... or whatever) that they experience Hell when they die. That's why NDEs appear differently to different people.

Side note to WIldtime - IMHO It's entirely possible for Jesus to have risen from the dead in a glorified body ... I say that because God can do whatever He wants AND we understand VERY LITTLE about our existence and about reality.


The Catholics have a slice of truth. The Buddhists have a slice of truth. The Hindus have a slice of truth. The Native American Indians have a slice of truth. and so on. (Sorry logical ... I can't include Islam.) It doesn't have to be one or the other .. it (truth) can be bits and pieces of different belief structures ... you never know.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
Then why are you fighting us and telling us we are wrong?

Especially when it's so obvious that we are right!!



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 11:48 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


I know! Right?!!

Hey, see my edit regarding kitties and motorcycles. I'd like your feedback or thoughts on it.



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