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Why should Immoral people change?

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posted on May, 22 2013 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 


now you're in trouble.... my stalker is here


jkjk... Love ya flyersfan!!

Shes one of the smartest ladies on this forum...


Good luck!

You'll need it





posted on May, 22 2013 @ 06:13 PM
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why should immoral people change.

First of all you have to explain from which world view you are asking that question from.

From new age where morals are relative, there is no such thing as an immoral person.

from a theistic paradigm, the tendency is for an immoral person to resist changing (into a moral person)

from other world views the spectrum will fall between these two extremes.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 08:39 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7
 


now you're in trouble.... my stalker is here


jkjk... Love ya flyersfan!!

Shes one of the smartest ladies on this forum...


Good luck!

You'll need it


good she is here, i was missing FF and her "strong" opinions, its going to be fun till she remains open to discuss.
Thanks for the Good Luck



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 08:47 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Heya, FF.

I sure hope you continue to participate here...
I seem to have been "put on hold" (aka "ignore") for non-compliance with logical7's thinking.
Go, you!!



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 09:29 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 





So no ... we do NOT know what God wants. We only know what people here CLAIM He wants.

well, lets agree on it, so we don't know what GOD wants even if we have some sayings of Jesus pbuh with us, so if you believe that its just CLAIMS, how you believe more outrageous claims of church that claims Jesus pbuh is God. If NT is not trustworthy enough to teach morality, how is it trustworthy to teach what,who,how God is?


Seeing what you think of women ..
that makes me sad for them.
2nd class citizens ... being kept down
and forced to be depending on men.
Very sad.

well if 2nd class citizens means that i don't let women around me lift heavy things, carry their shopping bags, escort them for travel and take care that they are comfortable in every way then i guess muslim women like being 2nd class.
They can be independent but if the don't want to work etc,Sharia forces men to provide their needs and comfort while women can be free to do what women do best, like social work, spend time with kids and talk with each other or pursue any education without worrying if it will provide a good job.

The Iranian morals police go
around beating up women who don't
dress according to their version of
morality .. and those idiot police think
they are acting morally when in fact they are immoral misogynistic sickos.

you are stuck up with Iran and Khomeni, i condemn that more than you. Its also not my morality so don't group me in that if you don't want me to call you a WBC secret supporter!

Equal inheritance has nothing to do
with how much a person earns or
doesn't earn. People contribute to the
family differently and what is inherited
should have nothing to do with
income levels. Women should be allowed to remain single and
unmarried if they wish. Your version of
'morality' when it comes to inheritance
is immoral.

marriage is not compulsory in Islam not even for women.
The inheritance issue is about social distribution of wealth equally, a woman recieves dowry at marriage and is completely a responsiblity of man financially. If she gets equal inheritance, the wealth would shift towards women with time as men would be spending more and would be left with much less. A woman can keep what she earns and she doesn't have to provide for family.

gender should be irrelevant when
it comes to inheritance.

gender will be relevant till its a guy who buys a diamond ring to propose, half the inheritance is wiped by it anyways
so there you are, each got half and the woman got the ring too, who is better off under sharia?!!



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Heya, FF.

I sure hope you continue to participate here...
I seem to have been "put on hold" (aka "ignore") for non-compliance with logical7's thinking.
Go, you!!

i am waiting for your replies. Non-compliance with logical7's thinking is encouraged here
till one us learns more and then we move ahead.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 10:01 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


God's moral standard is for us to love one another. Anything that is against love is against God's moral standard. This is what Jesus Christ taught and what I believe to be the truth.

I believe that if we paid attention to our own emotions we would clearly see that love is God's moral code. Love is what God has put in front of us hopping that we would pursue Love.

This is not complicated, anything that is against love is against God, everything else is religion, we should not separate ourselves from love because of our religion.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 10:27 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


You haven't responded to my numerous questions. You just shut down your end of the conversation. I've refuted your points of view with valid sources and sound thinking. You decided not to go any further by explaining your "world view" - therefore, we have come to a stalemate. My points all still stand.


There can be unknown creations, you believe in angels right?
Yes.

This is what i find inconsistent with you belief.
Why?

Karma needs an intelligent active, aware Source.
No, consequences result from actions.

If angels are guardians/protectors, who wants us to be guarded and against what?
The angels, and harm.

How can reincarnation possible but resurrection outrageous?
There is evidence of reincarnation all the time with people/children recalling past lives.
Resurrection does not happen. THE FULLY DEAD DO NOT COME BACK TO LIFE. You know that I don't believe in the resurrection. I do believe that NDEs indicate there is another dimension that we cross to, but those who recover from near-death were not FULLY DEAD. They were mistakenly THOUGHT to be dead, or showed signs of 'brain death' and then recovered. How that happens I do not know. To me it indicates a reality of which we are still unaware and can't explain. It is more likely that Jesus was not fully dead, was treated by his friends, and then recovered from what APPEARED to be death.

How you are living your life on a belief that you are not certain of?
How are you certain that your beliefs are true? You have no proof. I am certain that I am uncertain, and I live a good life anyway. You are 'certain' that you are 'right', and yet you both promote and condemn clearly inhumane behaviors. I condemn ALL INHUMANE BEHAVIOR, out of respect for the living. No God required.

What happens if you are wrong and you had refused to search other ideas because they clash with your way of upbringing which you till lately believed to be universal.

There you go again, pretending I haven't answered this before. I have studied as many "other ideas" as I have found so far...and the only thing I thought was 'universal' were the BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS set forth by the U.N. I didn't know that there were people who don't believe in those rights. THAT was my ignorance, because they seem to me SELF-EVIDENT.

Because you see what people do rather than what the belief says?
This is irrelevant. I expect people to have integrity, and if they believe something, they should act accordingly. Believing Mohammed flew to heaven on a horse is just as preposterous as the 'resurrection' story.

Do you think you will accept full responsibility of whatever comes?
Yes. I accept full responsibility for living my life to the very best of my ability. I don't need to accept beliefs "just to be on the safe side." That's fear, not accountability.
edit on 23-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by logical7
If NT is not trustworthy enough to teach morality, how is it trustworthy to teach what,who,how God is?

You just proved my point. YOU think that morality is one thing .. Christians think morality is something else .. Buddhist something else ... Jews something else. No one can agree on what 'morality' is. Therefore, to tell others to change and be 'moral' like you are ... that's silly. Because your 'morality' may not be what God wants.


well if 2nd class citizens means that i don't let women around me lift heavy things, carry their shopping bags, escort them for travel and take care that they are comfortable in every way then i guess muslim women like being 2nd class.

That's just being a gentlemen. You know very well that in Islam women are treated as second class citizens in important matters .. decision making matters .. money matters ... legal matters ... forced to dress a certain way ... forced not to be able to be independent ... in places forced not to be able to drive or get an education because it's 'immoral' for women to be like that ...

All those things against women are IMMORAL and yet it's considered moral in Islamic countries.
.

you are stuck up with Iran and Khomeni,

They claim to be doing the 'moral' thing. And they are trying to push their 'morals' onto others who they say are immoral. Do you see yet how one persons version of 'moral' is anothers version of 'immoral'. And Iran and Khomeni and the Imams there all claim to have the moral high ground and want all the supposed 'immoral' people to change to fit their morals. Yet they are the ones who are immoral.

marriage is not compulsory in Islam not even for women.

And yet the whole legal setup is set against women who are independent or who want to be independent.

If she gets equal inheritance, the wealth would shift towards women with time as men would be spending more and would be left with much less.

Not true. That's NOT how it works in countries where women and men are treated equally before the law. People hold their own and pull their own weight.

A woman can keep what she earns and she doesn't have to provide for family.

Men and women who are married pool their money together and BOTH provide for the family.

gender will be relevant till its a guy who buys a diamond ring to propose, half the inheritance is wiped by it anyways

I can't follow any of that. What does inheritance have to do with engagement rings??


who is better off under sharia?!!

Misogynistic men who are afraid of women who are smarter or who can be independent.
With freedom, those men would lose their footstools. Their egos couldn't take it.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by logical7
Non-compliance with logical7's thinking is encouraged here

Well .. you'll definately get that. I'll give you this much ... you are more pleasant about getting hit over the head with facts by a woman than some of your compatriots are.
They get downright nasty (and irrational).

Bottom line ... everyone is running around calling others 'immoral' and saying that they, themselves are the moral ones. But as we can all see, no one can agree on what is 'moral'. So no one should expect others to change to act in a manner they consider moral just because they CLAIM that God wants it that way.

Gotta' go back to the best case point .. the Imams in Iran and Saudi Arabia who claim to speak for God. They claim it's moral to not let women drive or not let women dress in jeans and sandals or it's not moral for children to play with Barbies or squirt guns .... Pretty dang absurd, isn't it? And yet, they think that they are the moral ones and anyone who doesn't think like them are immoral.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 



reincarnation is equally outrageous, resurrection for Jesus pbuh can be simply suspended animation.

Yet you live in India, which is one of the most prolific places producing children remembering past lives, and people believing those children ARE reincarnated.

MOST of the scientific studies done have been on cases reported IN INDIA! The Buddhists also believe in it.

So, this points to your "anti-Hindu" thinking. Which mirrors your "anti-West" thinking. And I guess even your "anti-Buddhist" thinking.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
God's moral standard is for us to love one another. Anything that is against love is against God's moral standard.

And yet there are many people on this planet who are saying that their religion is 'moral' and everyone else are 'immoral'. Which is why when someone says that 'immoral people should change' ... it's wrong to say that. One persons version of immoral isn't another persons.

Some people say that women who don't cover their heads are immoral.
I think that's absurd.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 

I have a past life memory. In this recurring dream (which I have had since being a small child), I died in WWII London during an air raid. I was a child on a playground and it blew up with a bomb that was dropped .. and I heard the air raid sirens and saw my mother (during the WWII time) standing with her friends next to the playground. They blew up too. The WWII mother was not my mother from this life and she was dressed in clothing from that time period. I don't know how a 6 year old kid from this time period could come up with recurring dreams so detailed like that .. unless it actually happened.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 02:35 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


I don't have specific 'memories', but I am drawn intensely and very emotionally to certain eras/periods and events. I think that dreams do offer us a window into past lives.

I have terrifying dreams of things happening like drowning, plunging off of cliffs, airplane wrecks, and large animals attacking me. NONE of those things has happened to me in this lifetime.

(Well, the 'plunging off the cliff' thing did sort of happen - though it was more like 'falling or rolling' off the cliff. We were living in the mountains and it was winter. My boyfriend was driving up a switch-back, ice-covered road, in a rear-wheel-drive old Cougar. We knew that to get enough traction we had to start out fast and solid - but a truck sideways in the road ahead blocked us. We started sliding backward and curving. He said, "we're going over." I thought 'Oh no, this is it!' I curled up into the fetal position and my life flashed before my eyes.....
we survived - the car was stopped by a couple of saplings catching the axle about 20 feet down a 150 foot sheer drop off. But wow.. The nightmares involve more "flying off of a cliff" thing in a vehicle.)

I dunno.


edit on 23-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 03:22 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 


LMAO!!

Im glad to be on this side of the fence...

I mean, wrestling with two strong women might be fun...


but debating morality... from a stance where women are beneath men...


That's like coming to a gun fight with a golf club...




posted on May, 23 2013 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7
 


LMAO!!

Im glad to be on this side of the fence...

I mean, wrestling with two strong women might be fun...


but debating morality... from a stance where women are beneath men...


That's like coming to a gun fight with a golf club...



AMEN LOL



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 06:01 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


An honest question to you and FlyersFan about the female species.

In your opinion do most women want to find a man who is strong enough to provide for his family, wise enough to make the right choices, and has enough faith to put love first?

If a woman found such a man would she accept him as the leader of the house and be happy to love him?

Please I am trying to understand something.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by sacgamer25
God's moral standard is for us to love one another. Anything that is against love is against God's moral standard.

And yet there are many people on this planet who are saying that their religion is 'moral' and everyone else are 'immoral'. Which is why when someone says that 'immoral people should change' ... it's wrong to say that. One persons version of immoral isn't another persons.

Some people say that women who don't cover their heads are immoral.
I think that's absurd.



I agree with you. If a women covers her head because of her love for God that is beautiful, but if she feels forced by religion than she should feel free to love God how she chooses. If she is right she will find love. If she finds love, then God has considered her clean, and so should everyone else.

If the women does not find love, maybe it is right for her to cover her head, but again this also would be her choice.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 08:00 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 





You haven't responded to my numerous questions. You just shut down your end of the conversation. I've refuted your points of view with valid sources and sound thinking. You decided not to go any further by explaining your "world view" - therefore, we have come to a stalemate. My points all still stand.

i have responded to relevant questions. I did shut down the conversation because i felt you are making it a win-lose debate and bringing up things to just 'score', things that have no relevance to the topic.
Your valid source was a report pointing discrimination against muslims, one of which was they being arrested and imprisoned just for looking "muslim"
and you present it as "look! many muslims are in prisons so being muslim does not make someone moral"
this disappointed me.
Being in prison does not make anyone immoral, the reason "why" is important, Mahatma Gandhi went to prison a lot was he very immoral?
I am not saying muslims dont commit crimes and I am also not saying that having a muslim name makes one moral so you proved nothing except how desperately you wanted to score.

Your points will stand because you refuse them to be attacked or questioned. Your world view is constructed on a platform of your beliefs, if you let me question your beliefs then the whole structure will crumble. Right now you run back to your beliefs to seek validation and prove your world view.

In short, this world is half the picture and whatever is after death is other half and you agree that death is not the end.
Then you say that because you don't know whats in the other half, you will consider this half as whole and build your view upon this belief!
How about searching till you find out?



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 08:16 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 



Your world view is constructed on a platform of your beliefs, if you let me question your beliefs then the whole structure will crumble. Right now you run back to your beliefs to seek validation and prove your world view.

I can barely, as in "only Sort Of", believe you even said this.

You have questioned my beliefs for months now.
"If I let [you] question my beliefs.... the whole structure' will 'crumble."?????????? !!! What?!!
Wow.

Just,



wow.
edit on 23-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



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