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Why should Immoral people change?

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posted on May, 13 2013 @ 07:53 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon

reply to post by logical7

 




Unfortunately i don't know your book... So i can't very well coment on its contents.



I do however know the OT... And there are some down right evil things within its pages.



Does your book tell people to kill others... Like witches and gays?



Only thing i don't understand is why alcohol ia forbidden when its a well known fact that Jesus drank?



By the way, i do love beer!



Its a national past time in Canada.


Qur'an is not just for muslims, its for all humans. I do appreciate that you refrain from judging it without knowing it




OT is a book written by people. OT itself says that scribes altered the verses and Qur'an comments on OT and NT too.


(2:79) Woe, then, to those who write out the Scriptures with their own hands and then, in order to make a trifling gain, claim: “This is from Allah.” Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they thus earn.




No Qur'an has nothing thats a standing order to kill witches or gays, here is what Qur'an says,


"The punishment of those who wage

war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the

cutting off of hands and feet from

opposite sides, or exile from the land:

that is their disgrace in this world, and

a heavy punishment is theirs in the

Hereafter; (The Noble Quran, 5:33)" This Verse would apply not only

to homosexuals, but also to

pornography promoters and other

wicked people who strive on polluting and destroying the Muslims' faith and morality.


homosexuality is a sin and thats it, we may disagree on it but again its my religious belief and i'l keep it.



Its not a well know fact the Jesus pbuh drank, its an accusation, just like he is accused of blasphemy, one is used to justify drinking, the other to worship him.



Qur'an says about alcohol


2:219

They ask thee

concerning wine

and gambling.

Say: "In them is

great sin, and

some profit, for men; but the sin

is greater than

the profit."..



[5:90] O you who believe, intoxicants, gambling, altars and arrows of chance are afflictions which are the work of the devil; you shall stay away from him, that you may succeed.



"Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler; and whoever is led astray by it is not wise"(Proverbs 20:1).


are you telling me that many drinkers after drinking are not prone to get in verbal abuse, fights etc? Even neglect family and kids, kids have a right to spend some quality time with both parents, drinking leads to some social injustices, interestingly there is a term "social drinker"!!

Drinking causes harms and someone wise will not become a mocker or brawler, in a muslim society drinking is forbidden just like drugs are in yours. Why can't drugs be also allowed? there must be many who are responsible "social drug users"

alcohol is a drug and addictive too.




posted on May, 13 2013 @ 07:59 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 



I want all people to use their brains be it frenzied crowd stirred by a mullah or soldiers becoming pawns of war-mongers!!

No one in this thread (or on ATS, to my knowledge) would disagree with that. We all want people to use their brains.

The fact is that religion is the reason those atrocities I linked to happened. The perpetrators themselves openly admitted that their motives were RELIGIOUS BELIEF and based on wanting to CONTROL another person.

Yes, people get violent and commit crimes all over the world; WHY they are doing so is the problem. "Lack of religion" or "fear of God" is not a valid answer. Threats are NEVER the first, best way to approach behavioral issues or disputes. Threats do not work productively to teach, nurture, or get cooperation. They work negatively. It's called BULLYING and ABUSE. Coercion and subjugation.

If the best a 'leader' or 'parent' can do is threaten harm and suffering as the consequence of "misbehavior," there is NOTHING moral about that, or corrective. It shows incredibly poor leadership skills, and a failure of character.

You are willing to comply with Qur'an; you interpret it individually. Yet every one of those crimes linked above was also due to someone else's interpretation of Qur'an. If a declarative is made so vaguely that it can be taken in several different ways, that is not real guidance. In fact, that's technique used in puns and jokes, and also by psychopaths who "couch" things in seemingly benign words that COULD be taken a variety of ways.

They do it deliberately, so that after the other person has "messed up", they can "punish them", or else "deny" that what was heard was what was meant. There is NO EXCUSE for "God" or any of those books to be "interpreted in several ways." If that's the best "God" could do, "God" had no business creating anything that had common sense or creativity
at all.

VERY, VERY rarely does a violent criminal in 'the West' state that the motive for their heinous action was that "God told them to." And when they do claim that, they are considered insane. I don't deny that it happens - that parents kill their children because they "think they are possessed", or some such religious nonsense - I do insist that the thinking behind those crimes is not "divine revelation" it is depraved INSANITY.

When one considers the genius of some human beings, ancient and modern, to develop ideas into world-class masterpieces of science, literature, architecture, mechanics, whatever, one would certainly expect that some "perfect overlord loving creator God," would be happy about it -- in the same way that a parent is excited to see their child's first step, or a good grade card, or something they built.

Thus we circle back to the only 'moral compass' needed (in my opinion): Treat others the way you want to be treated.

edit on 13-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 13 2013 @ 08:07 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 



are you telling me that many drinkers after drinking are not prone to get in verbal abuse, fights etc? Even neglect family and kids, kids have a right to spend some quality time with both parents, drinking leads to some social injustices, interestingly there is a term "social drinker"!!

Drinking causes harms and someone wise will not become a mocker or brawler, in a muslim society drinking is forbidden just like drugs are in yours. Why can't drugs be also allowed? there must be many who are responsible "social drug users"

alcohol is a drug and addictive too.



Can't argue with that honestly... Though, IF drinking brings out the so called "demons" in some... those issues were already present within that person...

So again, you can't blame the alcohol...


Its not a well know fact the Jesus pbuh drank, its an accusation, just like he is accused of blasphemy, one is used to justify drinking, the other to worship him.


Well... To the jewish religion claiming to be the son of God IS blasphemy... or are you saying he didn't say he was the son of God?

As far as him drinking is concerned... I don't see any reason why the people that wrote the original scripture would add the fact that he drank wine... Perhaps because they didn't want to give it up?

Similar to the vegetarian/Vegan Jesus idea?




posted on May, 13 2013 @ 08:13 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 



are you telling me that many drinkers after drinking are not prone to get in verbal abuse, fights etc?

Only a very few people are "mean drunks" or neglect their families after drinking. They are usually confronted, lose their jobs, homes, families, freedom. THE VAST MAJORITY of people drink responsibly.

How can you judge the recreational use of beer or wine if you've never tasted a drop?
Just like you can't know what it's like to be a parent until it happens to you, you can't know what drugs or alcohol really do if you've never experienced it for yourself.

As for Jesus, it is quite clear that wine was a standard beverage long before and during his lifetime, and has existed ever since. Beer also was developed eons ago - and in large part because fermented beverages were safer to drink than 'water' that has been untreated.

So yes, you are wrong. Drinking does not turn someone into a homicidal maniac after half a can of beer. If someone is a homicidal maniac who loses their 'inhibitions' after drinking, that is entirely different, and you CANNOT blame the alchohol - the person was a homicidal maniac before they started. Again, you have it backward.

Many people who DO lose their homes, families, etc due to ABUSE of alcohol go into treatment, often voluntarily, sometimes compulsorily by the judicial system - the treatment deals with the 'causes' of their need to self-medicate and learning new coping skills. (and Yes, I was also a substance abuse counselor.)



posted on May, 13 2013 @ 08:15 AM
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Hey, Akra, we were typing at the same time.


for a message well spoken.


logical7: YEAH, what Akragon said!



posted on May, 13 2013 @ 09:26 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 





So again, you can't blame the alcohol...

i am ofcourse not blaming alcohol, its a great disinfectant! Its also inanimate, people may say that the beer cans are calling them but they are just drunk liars

I'l simply say that everyone thinks they are responsible drinkers!
Islam has forbidden alcohol in favour of social interests.

Well... To the jewish religion claiming
to be the son of God IS blasphemy... or
are you saying he didn't say he was
the son of God?

yes, he din't say it, he was addressing himself as "son of man" he did use just "son" and "Father" for God, but it has to be interpreted to make it look that he addressed himself as "son of God" because he taught all to call God as "Father"
also the verse, "as many as are lead by the spirit of God are sons of God."
people, demons and satan called him that but againt OT calls other prophets as "son of God"
capitalizing it as "Son of God" does not make him the begotten son.

why the people
that wrote the original scripture would
add the fact that he drank wine...
Perhaps because they didn't want to
give it up? Similar to the vegetarian/Vegan Jesus
idea?

maybe, but if you read about John the baptist pbuh, he din't drink, he was a prophet.
One God sending many prophets will be consistent in their behaviour. Also before distillation it was not possible to raise the alcohol content too much. Also,

(REF: S. Bacchiocchi. The Sobering Facts About New
Testament Wine, Signs of the
Times, January 1990)

"Contrary to popular opinion, in the
ancient world the preservation of
grape juice unfermented was a
relatively simple process. It was
accomplished by boiling down the
juice to a syrup, or by separating the fermentable pulp from the juice of the
grape by means of filtration, or by
placing the grape juice in sealed jars
which were immersed in a pool of cold
water, or by fumigating the wine jars
with sulphur before sealing them. The use of such techniques clearly
indicates that the means of preserving
grape juice without fermentation were
known and used in the ancient
world." (REF. Bacchiocchi, Ibid)



posted on May, 13 2013 @ 10:23 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 





How can you judge the recreational use of beer or wine if you've never tasted a drop?

what?!!
i need to taste it? You mean i start liking it and then agree with you?
What about pork?
(i don't know if you eat it, i suspect you don't)
both are haram in Islam and i won't have them even if they are amazing to eat/drink.
Brainwashed right? I'l prefer dedicated


As for Jesus, it is quite clear that wine
was a standard beverage long before
and during his lifetime, and has
existed ever since. Beer also was
developed eons ago - and in large
part because fermented beverages were safer to drink than 'water' that
has been untreated.

check reply to Akragon. Wildtimes, water does not need to be 'treated' unless its polluted. Muslims are having water from 7th century. The europe in dark ages drank mead because their sense of hygiene was non-existent. The same time muslims had been following all hygienic practices and washing up 5 times a day where as europeans were considering water dangerous!

So yes, you are wrong. Drinking does
not turn someone into a homicidal
maniac after half a can of beer. If
someone is a homicidal maniac who
loses their 'inhibitions' after drinking,
that is entirely different, and you CANNOT blame the alchohol - the
person was a homicidal maniac before
they started. Again, you have it
backward.

you bring an extreme example, are you saying that most men are not competitive and lusty?
Brawlers and attracted to women? Maybe verbal abuse towards others including women is just acceptable price for the recreational pleasure of the "responsibles"
would you let a loved one pass alone through a street/place where guys hang out and drink?

Many people who DO lose their homes,
families, etc due to ABUSE of alcohol go
into treatment, often voluntarily,
sometimes compulsorily by the judicial
system - the treatment deals with the
'causes' of their need to self-medicate and learning new coping skills. (and
Yes, I was also a substance abuse
counselor.)

like i said, philosophy of "cure" rather than "prevention"
sure its nice to have rehabilitation centres, needles for drug addicts, welfare for teenage mothers, state run facilities for wives and kids abused by drunkards and let the responsible ones pay tax for it!

hope you can sustain to pay for the desires and addictions of others, also prisons filled by criminals who commited crimes under influence of alcohol.
Think about it while sipping the next glass



posted on May, 13 2013 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 



What about pork? (i don't know if you eat it, i suspect you don't)

Yes, I do eat pork. Why on earth would you suspect I don't?

The only objection I have to eating meat of any kind is the love I have for animals. I'd be fine with a vegetarian/fish/shellfish diet. (YEP! I eat shellfish, too!)

What do you think would happen to you if you had some bacon with some shrimp scampi and a glass of wine? Seriously, what would happen to you? How is it hurting any other person's rights for you to do so?

You think you'd die of poisoning? No. Be struck by lightning? No. Catch an STD? No. Make a teenager pregnant? No.
Use your brain!

It's obvious you are ultra-conservative, and I think what I'm detecting (finally) is that you are trying to "spread knowledge" to your own brothers and sisters in Islam - that they are ignorant - and that I, all non-muslims, and the entire West are "ignorant" - and that your choice of lifestyle and interpretation of society is the only educated, experienced, healthy and correct one. You are inconsistent in your approach, as well.

You appear to be more an "apologist" for Islam, and an "opponent" condemning the people of the West, about whom you really have only limited knowledge, and whom you presume to judge.


edit on 13-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 13 2013 @ 10:58 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


you bring an extreme example, are you saying that most men are not competitive and lusty?
Brawlers and attracted to women? Maybe verbal abuse towards others including women is just acceptable price for the recreational pleasure of the "responsibles"
would you let a loved one pass alone through a street/place where guys hang out and drink?

WHOA there, bucko.

you're way, way out there now. If that's how most men where you live behave, I can't help that. It is NOT how "most men where I live" behave. Again, you're not tracking the discussion, and you are making assumptions based on false impressions.

Would I let a loved one pass through a street/place where "guys hang out and drink"? What kind of a question is that?
I myself would pass alone through a street/place where guys hang out and drink unless it was obvious they were gang-members and criminal types.

We have open-air bars here, where people meet to eat and drink - passersby simply pass by. They are not harassed or raped or spat upon or abducted or taken into the alleys and beaten or shot or mugged. I think maybe you watch too many movies or TV. Those portrayals are largely fictional and extreme!

Yes, there are places I don't go to 'hang out' even in the DAYTIME, because I KNOW that the people living there are violent and dangerous. Yet, I used to work in the inner city, and was IN those same neighborhoods daily, working, and not ONCE was I threatened, harassed, or harmed. Likewise I used to work serving beer and drinks. No problems there, either! What DO ya know! Isn't that a miracle?

You are showing just how unrealistic your view of 'the West' is, and your argument is falling apart at the seams. Yes, there are ignorant, violent people in every part of the world. Which means 'religion' does not prevent it.



posted on May, 13 2013 @ 01:49 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 





What do you think would happen to you if you had some bacon with some shrimp scampi and a glass of wine? Seriously, what would happen to you? How is it hurting any other person's rights for you to do so? You think you'd die of poisoning? No. Be struck by lightning? No. Catch an STD? No. Make a teenager pregnant? No. Use your brain!

i do use my brain, maybe you should use your heart too wildtimes, you acknowledge a Creator yet assume that the Creator is unaware of the creation.
Things change when the Creator is acknowledged.
Thinking your brain is enough to know everything is lame, we can't comprehend even a tiny bit of the creation, ourselves, self knowledge can take a lifetime.
Why i don't have haram things?
Because Qur'an forbids it.
I believe in Allah and His revealations.
You asking me whats wrong in it, implies that i should disbelieve that Qur'an is from Allah,
so i should also disbelieve that Allah sends revealations.
I should be a deist like you? NO THANKS.

My beliefs and behaviour should be consistent and i try my best to keep it that way.


It's obvious you are ultra-
conservative, and I think what I'm
detecting (finally) is that you are trying
to "spread knowledge" to your own
brothers and sisters in Islam - that
they are ignorant - and that I, all non- muslims, and the entire West are
"ignorant" - and that your choice of
lifestyle and interpretation of society is
the only educated, experienced,
healthy and correct one. You are
inconsistent in your approach, as well.

thanks
yes i am ultra-conservative.
Is spreading knowledge bad? You'l like it when muslims follow Islam more.
What exactly will please you? Is it bad that i educate muslims that honour killing is wrong, pre-marital sex is wrong etc
no, the entire west is not ignorant, there are many who are knowledgable.
Btw i am not here to please or to seek approval, i am here to share my views and inform what Islam is to the best of my ability.
I hope you respect my beliefs, i have seen you criticize anyone who believes in Heaven and Hell because you think hell does damage, it does not damage anymore than drinking and that damage is due to people being ignorant about God and blindly believing a preacher etc.

We can discuss but stop assuming that i am unevolved and with time will evolve and align my views with you.
We have two different starting point where we being our thought process, to have your thinking i'l need to adopt your starting point. We will disagree on everything that conflicts each others starting point.
If you understand that and respect it then we can talk.



posted on May, 13 2013 @ 05:40 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 





your argument is falling apart at the seams.

really?
www.alcoholandcrime.org...

The vast majority of people who
consume alcohol do so safely and
responsibly.

agreed.

Nearly 13,000 people are killed each
year on U.S. roadways in alcohol-
related accidents

Hundreds of thousands more are
injured
Alcohol-related crashes cost American taxpayers over $100 billion
Nearly 1.4 million people are arrested for a DWI each year and 780,000 are convicted
Of those convicted, one-third are
sentenced to community corrections
Two-thirds of those sentenced to incarceration are repeat offenders



5.3 million adults − 36% of those under correctional supervision at the time − were drinking at the time of their conviction offense

40% of state prisoners convicted of
violent crimes were under the
influence of alcohol at the time of their offense − the more violent the crime,the greater the likelihood that alcohol was involved

25% of state prisoners given a
standard questionnaire to screen for
alcoholism tested positive

are you agreeing that the above damage to society is acceptable? Beacause if alcohol is allowed this much damage is going to happen.

Yes, there are ignorant, violent people
in every part of the world. Which
means 'religion' does not prevent it.

yes ignorant people are everywhere and they may tend to be violent.
But the violence at your place is having a different reason than in muslim societies. Muslims are ignorant of their religion and can improve when educated.
The violence/immorality at your place is the side effect of freedoms and it will stay unless something strongly motivates the immoral people to change.

EDIT: check this thread www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread946980/pg1
edit on 13-5-2013 by logical7 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 13 2013 @ 11:32 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7
 


Well... There is another side to the debate

Alcohol isn't "inspired" from a God... so anything that happens as a result of its use can only be blamed on the user...

Holy books from the Abrahamic religions do tell people to do evil acts... So if said person believes God inspired these words... The book is as much to blame as the person...

Alcohol makes no threats to a persons well being or spiritual future if its not used...

Religion does if its not followed



It's funny to me how everything that is good is God's fault and everything that is bad is man's fault.

Did God not create us with free will?
Did you choose the time, day, hour, place of your birth or even who you parents would be?
Did you choose the people you interact with or did God orchestrate those interactions?
Does God have foreknowledge? If so why does he let us make bad choices?

Alcohol and Islam were inspired by God. Alcohol occurs naturally; therefore we must blame or celebrate the creator for such a creation. Whatever God allows he also inspired. Maybe he used our free will against us, allowing us war, greed, and religious tension, but the inspiration came from him. He is the creator of us and therefore the author of our emotions. Since he gave us both free will and had the foreknowledge to understand our choices, he truly is to blame for everything.

However if you stop blaming him and accept that he is in control you might start to recognize what he is telling you to do. And thus you may learn to hear with your ears and avoid God's wrath. God's wrath, haha, God is love; even his wrath is designed to push you towards loving one another.

God is the author of good and evil. His ways are righteous. The purpose for any emotion against love is to teach us how to more righteously pursue love. God is love, everything happens for his purpose.

edit on 13-5-2013 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 13 2013 @ 11:56 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 



i am ofcourse not blaming alcohol, its a great disinfectant! Its also inanimate, people may say that the beer cans are calling them but they are just drunk liars


You are blaming alcohol... Just because you say you're not doesn't make it true...

And its not hallucinogenic by the way...



I'l simply say that everyone thinks they are responsible drinkers!


NO... they don't... lol

Most people that drink don't do it to get hammered... more to relax and unwind... IF someone has a drink or two they usually aren't staggering around trying to start fights with anyone they see.

and people learn their limits the hard way... Of course there are exceptions


Islam has forbidden alcohol in favour of social interests.


Fair enough...

Where do you live if you don't mind me asking?


yes, he din't say it, he was addressing himself as "son of man" he did use just "son" and "Father" for God, but it has to be interpreted to make it look that he addressed himself as "son of God" because he taught all to call God as "Father"


So a text from within 100 years of his actual life that said specifically he is the son of God... likely written by someone that was Johns closest follower is wrong... Yet your book is from no where near his lifetime and its more accurate... You don't find that a bit ridiculous?


also the verse, "as many as are lead by the spirit of God are sons of God."
people, demons and satan called him that but againt OT calls other prophets as "son of God"
capitalizing it as "Son of God" does not make him the begotten son.


I realize what others called him... but he called himself the son of God...

His own words....

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

..........

So you're telling me that he didn't say that?


maybe, but if you read about John the baptist pbuh, he din't drink, he was a prophet.
One God sending many prophets will be consistent in their behaviour.


Which would make Jesus no different then any other follower of that religion... which basically says Matthew Mark Luke, John... and Thomas were completely wrong...

Pretty bold brother...


Also before distillation it was not possible to raise the alcohol content too much. Also,

(REF: S. Bacchiocchi. The Sobering Facts About New
Testament Wine, Signs of the
Times, January 1990)

"Contrary to popular opinion, in the
ancient world the preservation of
grape juice unfermented was a
relatively simple process. It was
accomplished by boiling down the
juice to a syrup, or by separating the fermentable pulp from the juice of the
grape by means of filtration, or by
placing the grape juice in sealed jars
which were immersed in a pool of cold
water, or by fumigating the wine jars
with sulphur before sealing them. The use of such techniques clearly
indicates that the means of preserving
grape juice without fermentation were
known and used in the ancient
world." (REF. Bacchiocchi, Ibid)


ok but it says he drank wine... Not grape juice...

You realize just because you don't agree with what it says... does not mean that's not how it happened

Not only has this particular belief system been around far longer then yours, but its much closer to the life of the man who originated it... As far as I've read your prophet was born 200+ years before the book was written...

While the NT has books written within 100 years of the life of the man...

Yet your book is more accurate then the gospels?


edit on 14-5-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 07:57 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 



Thinking your brain is enough to know everything is lame, we can't comprehend even a tiny bit of the creation, ourselves, self knowledge can take a lifetime.


REally!!!????
Astonishing!!



That's what I've been saying all along, ..... and you've denied over and over.
Well, at least you've now proven you are hearing what I'm saying and absorbing it, even if you think this was actually your idea that you just made up originally.


780,000 people convicted for DWI is .002% of the population, for crying out loud!


Government statistics show a woman is raped in India every 20 minutes, and yet, India has one of the lowest conviction rate for rapists in the world.
www.theatlanticwire.com...

Why are you here on ATS "teaching" people who are not uneducated, ignorant Muslims, if what you want is to teach uneducated, ignorant Muslims? Are you practicing to see if you can be a mullah or something? Very odd choice of audience. Go start a youth group, or hang out at the mosque and hand out flyers. The people you want to 'preach' to are not here.

The majority of India's reported rapes occur in the northern part of the country.

So, why are you blaming the West, rather than talking to your own neighbors and countrymen?

Oh, and by the way, the United States TRIED prohibition. It failed. And it didn't stop people from drinking. It caused MORE problems.
Prohibition in the US

Prohibition in the United States was a national ban on the sale, production, and transportation of alcohol, in place from 1920 to 1933.[1] The dry movement was led by rural Protestants in both political parties, and was coordinated by the Anti-Saloon League.


Started by the religious -

Anti-prohibitionists ("wets") criticized the alcohol ban as an intrusion of mainly rural Protestant ideals on a central aspect of urban, immigrant and Catholic everyday life. Effective enforcement of the alcohol ban during the Prohibition Era proved to be very difficult and led to widespread flouting of the law. The lack of a solid popular consensus for the ban resulted in the growth of vast criminal organizations, including the modern American Mafia, and various other criminal cliques. Widespread disregard of the law also generated rampant corruption among politicians and within police forces.

See? It made things WORSE.
edit on 14-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 08:12 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 




Where do you live if you don't mind me asking?

He lives in northern India.



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 11:01 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


Islamists and Traditionalists reject modernity, by which they mean Western secularism and the banishment of religious values from most aspects of daily life in what Mohammad Arkoun calls the mythical West.

In this world view, reason and the Enlightenment have become the new devils, modern blasphemies because they dare to set Man up as equal to God. The original sin of modern Man is therefore to have rejected the sovereignty of God and put in its place the sovereignty of the Individual.

See how you are? This is from Islam and Modernity article on Warsi news


The very words secular and individualism are anathema to many of today’s Islamists.

But what they understand by both terms often seems superficial, a cliched vision of life in the West as seen on cable television and films – a world of sex, violence and desperate loneliness – that overlooks the role religion, custom and tradition play in the lives of most people in Western countries.
Yes, Indeed. I would include you as believing that mythological description.


Such rejection is also part of a wider process that seeks to recast Islam as the quintessential Third World ideology, the obvious successor to Marxism, inheritor of the mantle of nationalism, a repudiation of colonial weakness and the glorification of a mythologised Islamic Past that stands alone and defiant from Western civilization.

Okay, do you see? Can you address this notion relative to yourself and your beliefs?
Because.....

this simply flies in the face of historical evidence. Islam is part of Western civilization.

So, we may have an objective and scholarly look at where you are really coming from. You have a mythological view of both: The West, AND Islam's past.

If I am wrong about that, by all means, tell me how.


Condition of Indian Muslims in current day India: Justice Saachar Report
also from Warsi news, gives statistics.
Now, I would like to ask you a couple of questions.
This item struck me as inconsistent with the picture you portray:

In urban areas, the report shows that Muslims mostly live in slums characterized by poor municipal infrastructure. In the rural area they eek out a subsistence level living at par or below with Sub-Saharan Africa.

Do you live in a city?
If so, which one, and what part of it? If not, what village or rural area?
Is your family prosperous?

I've been researching this morning on Muslims in India.

The salient features of the Sachar Committee report are:

*Like Slumdog’s protagonist, 94.9 per cent of Muslims are in Below Poverty Line (BPL); families in rural areas do not receive free food grains.

*60.2 per cent of Muslims do not have any land in rural areas.

*Just 2.1 per cent of Muslim farmers have tractors. With 15,25,000 tractors, India ranks No.4 after US, Japan and Italy

*A mere 1 per cent own hand pumps.

*On the educational front, the picture is equally dismal: 54.6 per cent Muslims in villages and 60 per cent in urban areas have never attended schools.
Only 0.8 per cent of Muslims in rural areas are graduates.
Although in urban areas, nearly 40 per cent of the Muslims now receive modern education, only 3.1 per cent of the community in urban areas is graduates. Just 1.2 per cent is post-graduates.

How much education have you and your family members received IN SCHOOLS?

All of those are demographic items. Other items listed areas where there are a majority of Muslims.

But HERE IS ONE that you seem to have failed to show us, while showing statistics of prison populations in the USA.

*However, there is one place where Muslims are over-represented: prisons. Muslims claim a grossly disproportionate share of prisoners, including convicts and those undergoing trials.


So, here in these two articles from Warsi news we can see the conditions of Muslims in India, and also the mythological "West" that the traditionalists harp about. Clearly, your own 'education' and 'point of view' are skewed with a charicature of 'the West', and you are not alone in this.

Sadly, however, you seem unwilling to listen to those of us de-mystifying and explaining to you that your ideas of the West are incorrect. Would you like to address that?

I'm trying to get at your 'starting point'. I believe I've already contributed mine.
And one more question for now:
Which 'sect' of Islam do you claim as yours, and what makes you a competent 'teacher' of that sect?
edit on 14-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 





And its not hallucinogenic by the way...

i know, i was just joking.

Which would make Jesus no different
then any other follower of that
religion... which basically says Matthew
Mark Luke, John... and Thomas were
completely wrong... Pretty bold brother...

i didnt get you


You realize just because you don't
agree with what it says... does not
mean that's not how it happened

we don't really know what really happened do we? We do know that he foretold a new prophet and that prophet gave the Qur'an which forbids drinking.
The jewish tribes had settled near Madina(Yatrib) because their texts propheciesed about a prophet to emerge there.

As far as
I've read your prophet was born 200+
years before the book was written... While the NT has books written within
100 years of the life of the man... Yet your book is more accurate then
the gospels?

not true.
Prophet Muhammad pbuh died at 632 C.E. and the Qur'an was written down and completed by the Caliph Uthman r.a. who died in 656 C.E.
Do the maths. The whole Qur'an was memories by many(called Qari) before being written down, it was written down because there was a risk that the Qaris may die especially in battles.
If you believe Jesus pbuh was sent by God, why not Muhammad pbuh?

Nevertheless I tell you
the truth; It is expedient for you that
I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will sent him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. ... I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. How be it when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak.. and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. (John 16:7-14)

prophet Muhammad was illiterate and Qur'an is a hear-say(pun intended), its auditory transmission, a written copy is not the real Qur'an. In the 5 prayers the Imam recites it and people hear.
He also gave detailed signs of 'end of times'
Jesus pbuh is glorifièd in Qur'an.

So does Holy Ghost/Spirit fit the verses or prophet Muhammad pbuh?



posted on May, 14 2013 @ 06:57 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 



i know, i was just joking.


I kinda figured... but who knows...


i didnt get you


There was already plenty of law givers running around in his time.... What you're implying makes Jesus no different then those people...


we don't really know what really happened do we? We do know that he foretold a new prophet and that prophet gave the Qur'an which forbids drinking.
The jewish tribes had settled near Madina(Yatrib) because their texts propheciesed about a prophet to emerge there.


What passage did Jesus tell of a new prophet... And how do you know he wasn't speaking of someone else... like paul perhaps... ugh.. I feel dirty now




not true.
Prophet Muhammad pbuh died at 632 C.E. and the Qur'an was written down and completed by the Caliph Uthman r.a. who died in 656 C.E.
Do the maths. The whole Qur'an was memories by many(called Qari) before being written down, it was written down because there was a risk that the Qaris may die especially in battles.
If you believe Jesus pbuh was sent by God, why not Muhammad pbuh?


Wasn't your prophet a murderer at one point?

Did his words not incite battles for centuries?

Paul was a murderer as well at one point, yet he apparently reformed... but I still don't trust what he wrote...

So why would I trust your guy?


prophet Muhammad was illiterate and Qur'an is a hear-say(pun intended), its auditory transmission, a written copy is not the real Qur'an. In the 5 prayers the Imam recites it and people hear.
He also gave detailed signs of 'end of times'
Jesus pbuh is glorifièd in Qur'an.


Yet you deny the words that are written about him.... how does that work?

Can one just make up his own history about him?

People still do that to this day... even on this site...

You'll find a bunch of people saying "well Jesus gave this message" and go on to recite some poem created a hundred years ago... which has nothing to do with what he said


So does Holy Ghost/Spirit fit the verses or prophet Muhammad pbuh?


I don't know... Im not Christian so I don't buy the whole Father, son and holy Ghost thing... I believe in one God... Not three Gods that equal one




posted on May, 14 2013 @ 07:58 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 


Will you please answer the questions I posed to you?
That would be awesomely helpful.



posted on May, 15 2013 @ 07:52 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 





That's what I've been saying all along, ..... and you've denied over and over. Well, at least you've now proven you are hearing what I'm saying and absorbing it, even if you think this was actually your idea that you just made up originally.

i got the Idea from the Qur'an, right at its start.

(1:1) In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate (1:2) Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the entire universe. (1:3) The Merciful, the Compassionate (1:4) The Master of the Day of Recompense. (1:5) You alone do we worship, and You alone do we turn for help (1:6) Direct us on to the Straight Way, (1:7) The way of those whom You have favoured, who did not incur Your wrath, who are not astray.
a request for guidance and the reply in 2nd surah

(2:1) Alif, Lam, Mim. (only Allah knows the meaning of these arabic alphabets and why they have been included, putting the human intellect in its place)(2:2) This is the Book of Allah, there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the pious, (2:3) for those who believe in the existence of that which is beyond the reach of perception, who establish Prayer and spend out of what We have provided them, (2:4) who believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you, and have firm faith in the Hereafter. (2:5) Such are on true guidance from
their Lord; such are the truly successful.



Government statistics show a woman
is raped in India every 20 minutes,
and yet, India has one of the lowest
conviction rate for rapists in the world.

A woman is raped every 6 mins in USA! and population of USA is way less than India, what were you intending by bringing this up?

Why are you here on ATS "teaching"
people who are not uneducated,
ignorant Muslims, if what you want is
to teach uneducated, ignorant
Muslims? Are you practicing to see if
you can be a mullah or something? Very odd choice of audience. Go start
a youth group, or hang out at the
mosque and hand out flyers. The
people you want to 'preach' to are not
here.

ignorance has nothing to do with education here.
I am here because i want to, why are you digging up on my motives? Maybe i am here for the same reason as you are!

Anti-prohibitionists ("wets") criticized
the alcohol ban as an intrusion of
mainly rural Protestant ideals on a
central aspect of urban, immigrant and
Catholic everyday life.

i just see a fight between the two, alcohol just was an incidental reason. Either way your posting it does not help.



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