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Why should Immoral people change?

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posted on May, 11 2013 @ 06:49 AM
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reply to post by slugger9787
 





bsic human nature is evil and needs external force to instill morals and values.

If you ascribe to the darwinian model that we are nothing but a higher species of ape driven by our reptilian mind.
Great and is this external force dictated by you, society, the judiciary or by a ancient god?




posted on May, 11 2013 @ 07:27 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 

What dont you understand...Moslem men cant control their passions thats why they need all women to suffer the indignity the burqa, simple solution lobotomize them instead of treating all women like undifferentiated cattle. A lobotomy leads to apathy amongst others side effects




All men want to look at women, you need a woman in skimpy clothes to sell a car, a razor etc etc a simple analogy would be fuel and fire. Islam suggest that they should be kept checked and allowed to interact in a supervised environment except married couples


And yet most high ticket items like houses or cars dont involve skimpy clothing
Supervised environment..as long as you want to keep up the arousel keep them seperated...make them unobtainable.. dont let them interact ...does that mean even talking alone....I mean heaven forbid if they are alone all they want to talk about is sex



their animal desires as freely as in the west they would also get desensatized to woman in a few generations but that would also mean that the ills associated with it will creep in and they are very anti-family.


You are ignorant...there I have said it...you think we in the west are mass controleld mindless robots driven by animalistic lusts. I put it to to you that the illiterate sheep herder if thats who Muhammed really was got his ideas from watching animals breed, thinking that all men want is sex or that all women need is to get pregnant.

I would suggest that by having the burqa it allowed for non distraction from brainwashing so as to increase the cult and the mullahs hold. The burqa further enhanced and solved the objective of intermingling of various arabic tribes under the banner of Islam where none could see the tribal or ethnic differences before marriage thereby multiplying the military fighting machine.
The animal desires of the west that you speak of I think most arab men deep down wish they could express. They are so programmed to think in one way only...that is, that all is driven by lust.



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 07:43 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 





The same with something as small as jumping a red light. Do you think everyone who obeys it is doing it because its the 'right' thing. Maybe you do but you will be idealistic and unrealistic if you push for removing penalties(fear) of breaking traffic rules/signal and say everyone should do it because its 'right' and not due to any fear


I dont jump a red light because it can hurt me...see thats the right answer...not a fear of the monetary penalty...
The worlds prisons populations are ever increasing because of redefinitions of what constitutes a crime punishable by gaol. Here in Australia increasingly governments are sending people to prisons for trivial non-payment of vehicle related offences. If fear of penalty was a deterrant there would be no murders or rapists in prison.




removing fear of God's justice and punishment will just increase immorality


How many parents actually have raised children who thrive and are successful based on fear and punishments instead of love. Fear and the idea of eternal punishment or the missing paradise with 40 virgins is what is screwing the "faithfuls" mind. Sort of sets up a system of failure...thereby they keep going back to their priests or gods for further brainwashing...oops..I meant revelation/instruction...



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 09:15 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


All men want to look at women, you need a woman in skimpy clothes to sell a car, a razor etc etc
a simple analogy would be fuel and fire. Islam suggest that they should be kept checked and allowed to interact in a supervised environment except married couples.

That is utter crap and absolute bollox. Who should be kept in check and allowed to interact in a supervised environment? Women?

You said earlier that the covering of all but hands and face is due to voluntary modesty. Now you are admitting that they should be "kept in check" and "supervised".... in other words, you don't trust them, or value them other than as "pieces of meat" (Skorp's phrase, I believe). And you don't trust the men to treat them with respect.

I asked before: Are Muslim men so depraved that if they see a little bit of arm or leg or hair they go berserk? Wow, that's just astoundingly indicative of the "lack of self control" that you are blaming 'the West' for.


West lets them mix freely and patches up the damages done by it, STDs, teenage pregnancies, cheating husbands etc.

Stop. Just, STOP.


Pakistani Muslim teenager whose brother tried to hack her to death with an axe in an attempted ‘honor’ killing, miraculously survives

This was in April. A month ago.
This girl was married off when she was 12. TWELVE. To a 60-year old man, who beat her.

This Pakistani girl’s life of misery and suffering began at the tender age of 12, when instead of going to school she was married to a man old enough to be her grandfather. She says: “My family married me off when I was 12. My husband was 60. Every day he would beat me. I would cry and beg him stop. But he just kept on beating me.”
CNN When Gul told her family what was happening, they responded in a way that shocked her. “My family would hit me when I complained. They told me you belong in your husband’s house — that is your life.”
Is that not sufficient evidence of the brutality involved?

What about this one, March 6, 2013:
Muslim Teens: ‘Hitler Should Have Killed All’ Of The Jews...

Or this one:Shafilea Ahmed murder: parents 'killed daughter for dating boys’

A Muslim teenager was murdered by her parents because she refused to let them “crush her will” and resisted their plans for an arranged marriage, a court heard yesterday.

The case came before Chester Crown Court yesterday after her sister broke her eight-year silence and told police she saw her parents kill Miss Ahmed.

The court was told that Iftikhar Ahmed, 52, and his wife Farzana, 49, had spent a year trying to force their daughter to adopt a stricter way of life. They allegedly murdered her at the family home in Warrington, Cheshire, on Sept 11, 2003, after deciding they would never succeed.



If muslims got to satisfy their animal desires as freely as in the west they would also get desensatized to woman in a few generations but that would also mean that the ills associated with it will creep in and they are very anti-family.
The desensatization itself causes its own problems, eg. the need for more stimulation to desire woman leading to perversions.

Seriously?? That's just bizarre thinking. Trying to hack your sister to death is a bit barbaric, don't you agree? Don't you think?
Killing your daughter because she refused to have her will crushed is not barbaric?

Try this one:Christian Teen Murdered for Allegedly having Affair with Muslim Girl in Pakistan
article from 25 Feb 2013. The month before, this 19-year old kid was falsely accused and barbarically assassinated by Muslim boys. With an axe.

Yeah, that's just SO respectful of women as PEOPLE. SO tolerant of Jews and Christians.
SO much restraint and peacefulness.

And you talk about 'perversions.' Shameful. :shk:



edit on 11-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 09:36 AM
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In other news, an Arab in Cairo tried to murder an American professor who has been advocating FOR Islam. Thursday. Day before Yesterday.

Lebanese political science professor Asaad Abu Khalil described Stone via Facebook as a “model academic and a man who has dealt with Arabs and their causes with extreme respect, sensitivity, and support.” Stone is a strong supporter of the Palestinian cause and writes frequently against Zionism, Khalil added.

According to Al-Ahram, Stone told prosecutors the attack took place while he was on his way to the US Embassy to finish some paperwork for his wife. A young man enquired about his nationality and stabbed him in the neck after he said he was American.
The young man in Cairo has a bachelor's degree, and hates America so much that he forgot to check whether the guy was a friend or an enemy.

Book recently published: Crucified Again: Exposing Islam's New War on Christians

is a shocking and thorough expose of the new wave of persecution of Christians in Muslim countries, and by radical Muslims worldwide. Raymond Ibrahim combines a wealth of examples with the historical context of Islam's anti-Christian sentiment to demonstrate the urgency of this human rights crisis. Raymond Ibrahim is a Shillman Journalism Fellow of the David Horowitz Freedom Center.


Your rebuttal, logical7? Are these all lies? Or are you just going to say, "Well, they weren't really following Islam."
Or, "these are the ignorant masses"? So where does all the 'ignorance' come from again? Oh, that's right. "The West" and our non-existent self-control and our total lack of moral decency.
/sarcasm
Sorry if you feel I'm being disrespectful and ignorant. Unfortunately for you, however, you are not the only source for information about Islam and there a myriad other examples I could pull from the web and show you. But you can look those up yourself....

edit on 11-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 10:43 AM
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reply to post by slugger9787
 


Are you evil? Do you have urges to commit evil acts like murder? If not, then evil is not in your nature nor mine. Society is what turns people evil not nature. We're no more naturally evil than a turtle or deer is.

Like I said, the vast VAST majority of people on Earth aren't even close to being evil, it is the minority that commits the evil, those who can't get enough power. I find it baffling that you are okay with considering yourself evil. It must be such a sorry existence to have such self-deprecation as you do.

You are not evil and evil is not within the nature of humans, it is within ARTIFICIAL society that evil spawns from. There is absolutely nothing natural about being evil, if you think so then you are doing a disservice to yourself.



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 10:49 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


I know right? Since men are the ones who ogle women and try to rape them, women are in the wrong for being themselves so they must be the ones punished and kept in check! The men are not at fault at all even though they're the ones having the sexual thoughts and not the women.

That's totally logical. (end sarcasm)
x1,000

This guy is obviously making things up as he goes along just to fit his argument.
Little does he realize, the suppression of women and the covering of their bodies/faces probably causes carnal desires more so than not keeping them covered. You lust more for the forbidden fruit than the fruit that is readily available, and women being suppressed and covered turns them into a "forbidden" fruit.
edit on 11-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 11:13 AM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 

I think the main problem here, in terms of this debate, is that logical7 wants to 'teach' people about the "true" Islam. He's going by the Institute of Islamic Information and Education version of Islam.

And that may very well be what he believes; however, all of his 'educating' does NOT override the FACTS that atrocities are committed every day in the name of "Allah." The sects themselves want to kill each other.

The links I provided in the two posts above are PROOF that Many, Many Muslims behave barbarically, subjugate their women and daughters, murder their own family members or others for 'perceived' wrong-doing.

It's completely bizarre. While I respect log7's efforts to educate himself, to stand by the "true" Islam as noble and peaceable, the FACT remains that these events occur with regularity. Yet he gets defensive when I try to get him to tell me how the "true" Muslims are reining in their own people who are clearly NOT following the rules!

I don't know if he'll respond to me or not - he's shown his own impatience, and seems to have been pushed beyond his ability to sustain politeness and tolerance, I guess. Not that we all don't get huffy from time to time.

I can tell he's frustrated, and it seems he can't take a stand whether it's "Western Culture" that is corrupting 'the West' and ruining the world, or if it's tyrannical warmongers and corrupt leadership that is the problem. Pretty obvious to me that it's the leadership and sociopaths that are the problems, and we've already discussed how that kind of "immoral" person not only won't, but can't change. So the OP question/title becomes moot.



edit on 11-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


yet the only reason you mentioned for run away girls ending up in prostitution was low self-esteem due to religious indoctrination.

NO, I DID NOT say that "the only reason" runaways leave home was due to low self-esteem "due to religious indoctrination."
You blatantly misrepresented what I said. I said it was due to runaways who get sucked into street culture - and that runaways don't "run away" unless their home lives are intolerable due to abuse, neglect, constant shaming, being told they're sluts or fat or ugly or unwanted or "mistakes" or worthless, being kept captive, excessive control, tyranny, whatever.

And how do you explain giving a 12-year old to a 60-year old man who beats her every day? Whose parents arranged that hideous excuse for a "marriage" and then told her to suck it up??

She tried to RUN AWAY - and she got hacked nearly to death by her own brother. WHY did her brother do that? RELIGIOUS INDOCTRINATION. Why did her parents give her to that old man? RELIGIOUS INDOCTRINATION.

The girl in England was murdered by HER OWN PARENTS when they "gave up" on her becoming a "moral person." Because she wanted to adopt Western ways? Why the hell did they take her to England if they didn't expect her to be exposed to Western culture? Why put her, a child, in that position? Oh, for the free housing, food, money, etc. Right. Now there are neighborhoods and enclaves all over England where Westerners DARE NOT GO. Tell me how that's tolerant and educated. Tell me how those families are "noble and peaceful." You can't, because they are SICK.

You know, if you all would try a beer and a cigarette and maybe go sit on a beach and get some sunshine, you might not be so hostile, uptight, and rigid. *faceplam*

Your thinking and reasoning is stunningly off-base and dazzlingly bigoted.
edit on 11-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 12:06 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


I worked in prisons for fifteen years.

You blame society for producing evil in humans.

That is what I often heard by inmates/convicts:
It was the way I was raised.
the neighborhood.

I ask how many siblings and what do they do?

inmate says==two sisters one brother

one sister is a nurse
second sister is day care operator
brother is construction supervisor.

I say then it was not how you were raised/neighborhood.
you are in prison because you choose to ignore the
EXTERNAL pressure of parents, grandparents, uncles,
aunts, neighbors, teachers, coaches, store owners,
scout leaders, police officers, social workers, doctors,
counselors to INTERNALIZE the work ethic, morals
and values that your three siblings internalized.

I tell them they would "not be here if they would have
listened to the women in their life who loved them."

All 25,000 inmates that i have told this over the years
their jaw drops they look at floor and say "how did you know that?"

blame society and the inmates and criminals will tell you
themselves they choose to ignore the instillation of morals and values.

In my intelligence they are more enlightened than you are, and more honest.



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by slugger9787
 


So you're telling me that the vast minority of the population that is in prison is actually the majority? ....


You're still stuck with your argument pertaining to the minority of the population. The minority being evil =/= the majority.



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Yes religion is a disease spread through the most devastating way imaginable. They have tied their salvation and yours to a system that they believe in. How can you possibly stand up against the concept that you have staked your salvation on? We all have a natural fear of physical death. Religion seizes and takes control of this fear.

Religion prevents us from loving one another because we are too worried about "the right way to salvation"

Love is the path, everything else is religion.



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 02:24 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


I agree! Love is the true path and we are our only way to salvation. Love comes from within, not from a book or a set of moral codes and red tape. If you love, you will fall into morality.



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 02:27 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


Perfectly stated, sac. Succinct and real.



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 02:51 PM
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reply to post by slugger9787
 


blame society and the inmates and criminals will tell you
themselves they choose to ignore the instillation of morals and values.

Okay, so it's a choice. Yes, I agree with you. A choice made by the prisoners who CHOSE to be immoral, even though the women who loved them DID instill morals and values. But many, many parents may "teach" morals and values in lip service only, while BEHAVING in a contrary manner - and kids NOTICE THAT, EVERY TIME.

So you talked to 25,000 people about it....which means what? That they then changed? Did you have 100% "reformed" prisoners, or 100% recidivism?

People don't ONLY listen to the women who love them. They ALSO listen to their peers, they watch what goes on in the neighborhoods, they feel hopeless and stuck. So they TURN to crime, as a choice, RATHER than hard work or education.

And 3NL is right also - society has JUST AS MUCH impact on people as their parents - and at some point, often more so. Especially in adolescence.

Momma may say 'the pistol is the devil's right hand' - but if the child (whether a kid or adult) sees nothing all around him outside the home but violence and crime that is more 'exciting' or 'profitable' - like pimping women, or selling drugs, or stealing cars and 'chopping' them - or robbing convenience stores or homes, "why should he change?" Where is their father? Often not around. Or dead or in prison, or simply deserted - or "unknown."

If your expertise is in prison populations only, then you are not talking about the "majority" (who are NOT in prison). You are talking about kids and adults who had dysfunctional upbringings. The more "control" imposed by parents on a kid as they become adolescent, the more "rebellion" you will see. Maybe not at the usual age of 14-15-16-17, but a healthy person DOES go through that "differentiation".

It's simply human development. It's normal and a part of their 'job' as adolescents. If they fail to do it as kids, they may do it as adults, or they may not. MUCH depends on the parenting and upbringing, the dignity and teaching of critical skills, and of unconditional love and support.

That doesn't say anything about 'why should immoral people change?' which is the question posed by the OP. Now think about the little children being raised in Hamas-based homes - the preschoolers being dressed up in fatigues with "toy" ammo belts and machine guns as a class, and taught basic training skills.

Do THEY make the choice? I say they are indoctrinated, and it's very apparent that early indoctrination is very effective. Some kids are resilient and overcome the obstacles and challenges of poor upbringing, just one caring, nurturing adult can turn them from lives of negative behaviors and despair - but NOT ALL kids are resilient, or are able to overcome those things.

As for "psychiatry" being a pseudo-science, that is as inflammatory as saying "the West" is ruining the world.
Drug-pushing docs and biased researchers are NOT the same as empathetic therapists who do NOT prescribe. They are NOT the same as the people doing fMRIs to study the brain's wiring and functioning and trying to get a handle on motive, brain differences, and the resulting behavioral continuum.

Some "pyschologists" DO see themselves as "experts" and the "client" as "defective" and needing to be "cured." (Psychologists can not prescribe). But NOT ALL of them work under that premise -

Clinical Social Workers, on the other hand, work WITH the client as a partner; if they are trained in "client self-determination" (and not all are) they trust the client to be the "expert" on themselves, to be capable of identifying what they want to achieve, and to build a level of trust with the therapist -- who can then guide them in ways to change their behaviors or thoughts, help them examine those 'goals' and explore ways to achieve them BESIDES the counterproductive "skills" they have used prior to that.

Logical7 has earlier stated that the youths and families who live in war-torn areas view violence and death and destruction all around them, and hence become violent themselves. "why should they change"?
edit on 11-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 03:26 PM
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I think maybe he's deserted the thread.
Oh well. I don't mind having the 'last word.' I don't HAVE to have it, but, that's fine.



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 01:55 AM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
I think maybe he's deserted the thread.
Oh well. I don't mind having the 'last word.' I don't HAVE to have it, but, that's fine.


I have not deserted the thread

just busy, i'l reply all the posts soon.



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 02:15 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by logical7
 


That is so backwards!

If morality is innate then it is innate! No need for anything to "reinforce" it. If anything, belief in a god makes people even more immoral. Take a look at the world today, it is by and large god-fearing, yet that still doesn't stop the faithful from killing each other and blowing each other up.

You are SO ignorant to the world around you. It's easy for you to say that those people don't follow the religion, and you may be right, but they use god as JUSTIFICATION for doing what they do! Muslims and Christians alike.

morality is innate but not uncorruptible or you wouldn't see any immorality.
You have typical opinions without any proofs, how you have established that people who kill in the name of God are God-fearing?



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 03:25 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 





Can we stop saying "who does God love more", if we get in by merit forget it we ain't getting in. If we get in through love, which covers a multitude of sin, then maybe we still have a chance.

we all will have a chance to get in by just the Grace of God but its just wrong to do sins knowingly and then want Grace!!
The responsibility to make and keep the earth a good and peaceful place is on humans.
So encouraging good and forbidding evil is required by every good person.



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 04:10 AM
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Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by sacgamer25
 





Can we stop saying "who does God love more", if we get in by merit forget it we ain't getting in. If we get in through love, which covers a multitude of sin, then maybe we still have a chance.

we all will have a chance to get in by just the Grace of God but its just wrong to do sins knowingly and then want Grace!!
The responsibility to make and keep the earth a good and peaceful place is on humans.
So encouraging good and forbidding evil is required by every good person.


Grace is not something you can't ask for, it was something you were born with according to God's plan. God unconditionally loves all people, there is nothing we could do to merit this kind of love, but we should be lead towards love when we realize that we were first loved by him.



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