Why should Immoral people change?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

reply to post by wildtimes You have probably - as reflected by your posts - NEVER been to a Western country, have you?

sk0rpi0n: "One does not need to travel to Beijing to learn that its rather polluted"

No but as one who has lived in Turkey for a few weeks I saw how Turkish men couldnt stop staring at my wife even though she was conservatively dressed, it was the air of confidence and self assuredeness about her, a complete person...not a women who is DEFINED by men or the Culture or Religious mores based on tribal animal herders breeding husbandry.

reply to post by logical7

The first thing you can do is accept it, we are not imposing sharia on you just discussing

www.telegraph.co.uk...
"Five sharia courts have been set up in London, Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester and Nuneaton, Warwickshire. The government has quietly sanctioned that their rulings are enforceable with the full power of the judicial system, through the county courts or High Court. Previously, the rulings were not binding and depended on voluntary compliance among Muslims.
Lawyers have issued grave warnings about the dangers of a dual legal system and the disclosure drew criticism from Opposition leaders"

Beware: to all that think Islam is a benign philosophy...it is a subsuming encompassing subjugating movement aimed at absorbing and crushing western ideology. Whilst agreeing that I live under an imperfect society give me freedom of thought and the internet over a Mullah/cleric interpreted and "imposed from above" society. You dont know what you miss until you lose it...and for those that have never had intellectual freedom of thought well...its your inalienable human right to avail yourself

Furthermore I discarded the Abrahamic relgions a long time ago. religions based on a bi-polar jealous mountain god who laid waste to most of humanity is only worthy of contempt and abhorrence

gatesofvienna.net...
First They Came…
by Seneca III

“First they came for the free housing, the free health care, for freedom from oppression, for the right to speak freely and most of all for the free money, and we welcomed them and helped them because freedom, democracy, multiculturalism and charity are good.

“Then they came for our books and burned them in our streets, and we helped them by doing nothing because they told us their books good, our books bad.

“Then they came for the girl children and we helped them by ignoring it as long as we could because it was a cultural thing and we didn’t want to appear to be anti their culture, and it was only the worthless children of the white underclass who were being taken, not ours.

“Then they came for the Racists, and we helped them by designating Islam a Race because white racism is bad and no other form exists.

“Then they came for the Islamophobes, and we helped them by calling Islam a religion because hatred of non-Judeo Christian religions is bad and, anyway, a phobia is an irrational fear and as we are sublimely rational and fully understand such things. Islamophobia is obviously evil and dangerous and must be eradicated.

“Then they came for the protestors, and we let them and helped them because freedom of speech, Euro-Culturalism, gender equality, Racism and Islamophobia are all bad things from our past and must be done away with so that there will be peace and harmony and nice times for all in one big, happy family.

“But we were wrong, how wrong we were! Now they have come for us because Islam is in reality a nihilistic, primitive, misogynous, totalitarian political system that tolerates neither deviation nor dissent, and we are just not nihilistic, primitive, misogynous and totalitarian enough for their requirements. Where, oh where is the justice we ask?

reply to post by logical7

the simple thing is that the society you are defending is decaying and the reason is some of its wrong values and beliefs

And where is the renaissance evident in emergent Islam? The glaring present day examples where theocratic Islam has ascended a secular Arabic country; an Iron fist in the form of extreme dictatorship working in conjuction with the clergy and military to stifle and destroy dissent and freedom of thought is evident. Egypt Iran Saudi Arabia come to mind. Arabs dont seem to have learned the lessons of the last 500 years.
Sharia nations are not "decaying" in your eyes simply because they never stepped out of the tribalism medeival dark ages. People are still in poverty even though there is no "interest charged on loans" and no "porno on TV" and your politicans pay lip service whlst doing back door deals with the West.

reply to post by logical7

I guess the world remembers what happened when islam was followed fully, the western powers are not fools to let muslims become a formidable united union with almost complete control on the primary energy source, OIL!

Touche...thats about the cleverest thing you said in the thread so far....so ...true. But to think that a 100 years of nations in the middle east being bought and sold by puppets installed by the Western oil monopolies, the arabic or islamists would've learned by now. But as long as oil is priced in US $petro dollars the middle east is joined at the hip with the West and yet none of that wealth truly trickles down to the man in the street. And remember if you become a primary force in control of your own oil then there is always the bankers who will come in and assasinate you if you dare and suggest a gold based Dinar economy that led to Libyas Qadaffis demise.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

So what is the reason for the civil war in Syria?

seperatists funded and armed by the CIA, to cause instability, to allow US invasion on humanitarian grounds to neutralize Soviet presence to get closer to Iran before invasion of Iran... quite simple and elegant...othing to do with religion or race..pure economic bullying

reply to post by wildtimes

I just can't seem to break down the wall of misunderstanding. I'm weary from trying.

Don't be, take rest end rejoin the discussion...there are just as many ignorant christians jews as muslims who close an eye to an inconvenient truth that most of the battles are of an economic nature. The innocents suffer whilst the intellectuals know in their hearts that religion/ideology is really only used as an excuse to conquer,. They feel as powerless to stop their rulers or the killings so they rationalize doing nothing by doing something...ie endless debates on " my religion my morals " "your religion/morals have led to the breakdown of society.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


so you are offended by my comment
that basic human nature is evil.
that iss true, and morals and values,
which according to a naturalist and a
new age paradigm are relative to the
society are imposed upon a baby/child
from the outside in.

because secular humanism and
moral relativity believes that
morals and values are instilled
into a person based on the
society that they live in. and an immoral
person should change in order
to make everybody (the sociely they live in)
happy.

reply to post by logical7

When people leave God, they start needing more therapists! Because they are hardwired to believe by God

Thats not quite true..biologists recently suspect that we have a "faith or beleif" gene. Quite a jump stating that leaving god requires therapy. I would state it better as the creation of the pseudo science of Psychiatry and the replacement of the spiritual/counsellor priest has a traceable past and diabolical history. Here the pseudoscience with very little empirical evidence has taken upon itself the right to incarcerate those that is sees as non-conformist, all the time increasing the DSM criteria of mental illness. All who question the diagnosis of the therapist is labelled sick The power of the psychiatrist is deadly.
When/how did you get the idea that a therapist knows best? (Let google be your friend about psychiatry), likewise if a moralistic interpretaion of the Quran works for you fine. Dont dictate to others that a bigger stick will solve the worlds problems, try love and understanding instead. I have never felt freer since leaving the abramaic religion. I have my moral compass imposed from within not from without by some clerics interpretation or "inspired" hadith or revelation that a god need be my standard. You do realize that all religions lead to absolute control...bereft of true spiritualty?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Cognitive dissonance and double-thinkText

Yes precisely and yet little do they wonder how their own religious leaders laugh behind their backs as they feed of the energies of the slave

reply to post by logical7

I am not blaming whole of western culture but parts that promote lust and greed. From CNN Correspondent Garrick Utley NEW YORK (CNN) -- As scientists note the arrival of the six billionth human being on the planet, they also are warning that 16 percent of the world's population is consuming some 80 percent of its natural resources. That's the estimated toll the wealthiest populations on the globe -- the United States, Europe and Japan -- are taking from the earth's natural bounty to sustain their way of life. In the U.S. alone, says Emily Matthews of the World Resources Institute, every man, woman and child is responsible for the consumption of about 25 tons of raw materials each year. Americans, while making up only four percent of the world's population, operate one third of its automobiles. U.S. citizens consume one quarter of the world's global energy supply.

Really?


www2.ucsc.edu...

Table 1: Income, net worth, and financial worth in the U.S. by percentile, in 2010 dollars
Wealth or income class Mean household income Mean household net worth Mean household financial (non-home) wealth
Top 1 percent $1,318,200 $16,439,400 $15,171,600
Top 20 percent $226,200 $2,061,600 $1,719,800
60th-80th percentile $72,000 $216,900 $100,700
40th-60th percentile $41,700 $61,000 $12,200
Bottom 40 percent $17,300 -$10,600 -$14,800

From Wolff (2012); only mean figures are available, not medians. Note that income and wealth are separate measures; so, for example, the top 1% of income-earners is not exactly the same group of people as the top 1% of wealth-holders, although there is considerable overlap.

The lust and greed are promoted by the upper 1% who stand to benefit from consumption spending. There are alternatives to fossil fuels but they will never see the light of day until monopolies are broken. A lot of the energy consumption is in planned obsolescence and the throw away society. If it wasnt for the throw away society and cheap imports third world nations would be out of jobs thereby causing poverty unrest and uprisings hunger. See how we are interconnected. The greedy and the super rich dont eat any more or drive cars any more than the middle income earners who need the fuel for transport to keep the economy going.
The wealthy are not the consumers the greedy drive the consumption by the middle classes for profit. Its funny that you neglect to mention that the thirld world needs huge amounts of energy to supply the manufactured products for the western nations, or that as their standard of living rises so they seek the toys and diversions of the west.

reply to post by logical7

can you tell me what you are suggesting in short points.

For the first few pages of the thread you had minimal input leaving people guessing as to your own opinion. You said earlier that you have a good comprehension of English
I thought my response was pretty to the point...defining morals good and evil
Re-read it

"We have abrogated self responsibilty.
All we get fed is Bread and Circuses"

or we have submitted to Allah or whatever god as our excuse for lack of self responisbility

Originally posted by TheConstruKctionofLight
reply to post by logical7

 

the inhibition is due to the frontal lobe. Any substance that makes that uninhibited is haram.

So lets lobotimize or GELD arab/muslim mens sex drive ...because they cant look at a woman who doesnt wear a burqa
Better yet lets kill all moslem men as you probably do know that pheronomes play a part in exhiting sexual arousal? Can you see the logic of your specious arguments

i can't understand what is your point! The frontal lobe keeps the person in check not to act on each animal desire, say sex drive, violence etc. I am saying killing that inhibitor brain cells with alcohol is not good.

All men want to look at women, you need a woman in skimpy clothes to sell a car, a razor etc etc
a simple analogy would be fuel and fire. Islam suggest that they should be kept checked and allowed to interact in a supervised environment except married couples. West lets them mix freely and patches up the damages done by it, STDs, teenage pregnancies, cheating husbands etc.
If muslims got to satisfy their animal desires as freely as in the west they would also get desensatized to woman in a few generations but that would also mean that the ills associated with it will creep in and they are very anti-family.
The desensatization itself causes its own problems, eg. the need for more stimulation to desire woman leading to perversions.

So, NO THANKS!

reply to post by logical7

How about a cannibal tribe? Why are they not moral? Discovering a tribe who don't even know they are moral, they just keep doing what their fathers did is not a proof of anything except that morality is innate and may get corrupted later and that i do believe.

So if this tribe with the females bare breasted got on a plane to Saudi Arabia they could walk around naked in front of Muslim men? They would be welcomed with open arms as part of a cultural exchange study group with bare breasts. ?

"Need of God is not how you think it is."

Need of god is how I say it is to myself : "I know it is"
it only comes through much study and trying different flavoured religions, it comes through gnosis
I am spiritual and leave it at that. I cannot change the world I can only change myself

I dont go around telling others they are in need of God/god/jehovah/g*d/Allahs mercy or judgement

reply to post by wildtimes

"Faith" has nothing to do with 'stopping injustice."

it has, its about being not afraid. Majority people are afraid of losing something if they stand up to injustice. Job, power, fame, even life.
The faith in God and afterlife removes that fear.

Thauban reported that the messenger of Allah said: "It is near that the nations will call one another against you just as the eaters call one another to their dishes." Somebody asked: "Is this because we will be few in numbers that day?" He said: "Nay, but that day you shall be numerous, but you will be like the foam of the sea, and Allah will take the fear of you away from your enemies and will place Al-wahn into your hearts." Somebody asked: "What is this Al-wahn?" He said: "The love of the world and the dislike of death." (Abu Daud)

reply to post by logical7

Hadiths are his sayings and explanations of following Qur'an properly.

You miss the point, no they're not

en.wikipedia.org...
"Classical hadith specialist Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani says that the intended meaning of hadith in religious tradition is something attributed to Muhammad but that is not found in the Quran."

notice "attributed to"

reply to post by logical7

but everyone should try and understand Qur'an and not blindly follow a mullah!

understand???
and yet you said

Many don't even know arabic yet remember the whole Qur'an.
How can there be memorizing or even understanding without a language background? Are you serious...do you know what you are saying?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

f not even that then feel it wrong in the heart and thats the least faith.
Maybe this will explain how/why i relate stronger faith to reduced injustice.

Maybe.
But so far, your argument s not holding water. No belief in 'God''s 'wrath' is as powerful as recognizing how much one's upbringing and indoctrination affect their thinking..

It's too bad you don't realize that. Perhaps one day, you will.

its not a belief in God's wrath, its a belief in God's justice. It prevent me from doing injustice and gives me patience when injustice is done against me.
Is it so difficult to see that if there was no punishment for crimes, there would be more crimes.
Look at the time when riots happens, people steal a lot. Why? Because in the chaos they have less chance of being caught. Why they don't do it normally? Because they are 'afraid' of the law.
The same with something as small as jumping a red light. Do you think everyone who obeys it is doing it because its the 'right' thing. Maybe you do but you will be idealistic and unrealistic if you push for removing penalties(fear) of breaking traffic rules/signal and say everyone should do it because its 'right' and not due to any fear.
if you do remove penalties, you'l just increase accidents.
The same way, removing fear of God's justice and punishment will just increase immorality especially the ones that are not illegal or punishable by law or a very lenient punishment/fine.

If morality is innate then it is innate! No need for anything to "reinforce" it

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


so perceptive!