Why should Immoral people change?

reply to post by TheConstruKctionofLight


can you tell me what you are suggesting in short points.

reply to post by logical7

the inhibition is due to the frontal lobe. Any substance that makes that uninhibited is haram.

So lets lobotimize or GELD arab/muslim mens sex drive ...because they cant look at a woman who doesnt wear a burqa
Better yet lets kill all moslem men as you probably do know that pheronomes play a part in exhiting sexual arousal? Can you see the logic of your specious arguments

reply to post by logical7

I am not claiming 'faith-based' counselor are better, they can be jerks.
I am saying turning to God is good and therapy should be taken. If your suggestion is therapy as alternative to God then you are just pushing you view and no different than an evangelical christian trying to catch a potential member.

Oh
My
God.

Seriously?
You're not even keeping track of THIS discussion??
You say that 'therapy should be taken', but you earlier said that 'leaving God' instills the need for more therapy.

Your OP was "Why should immoral people change?"

I have answered you to the best of my ability. I know more about Islam than you apparently think I do. So what is your real argument here? That with religion (Islam), no one needs help or 'therapy' to sort out their confused and demoralized thinking?

That with Islam everyone would be all "love and kisses" to the rest of the world?

OBVIOUSLY that is NOT the case.
I'm fed up with your attacks on me, honestly. But I won't declare a "jihad" against you, and I wish you no harm. All I can do - and will do - is hope you mature as the years go by, and think about things with a more open mind.

Originally posted by TheConstruKctionofLight
reply to post by logical7

 

the tribe knows it because each baby is born with it. Its the society that corrupts it an God is needed to restore it. The tribe may already have a belief of no god yet maintained their sense of right and wrong.

So therefore they had no need of God, or Original sin...hehe

i don't believe in original sin, i am a muslim.
Need of God is not how you think it is.
Who made them know good and bad innately?
You think God needs acknowledgement to feel good etc?

How about a cannibal tribe? Why are they not moral?
Discovering a tribe who don't even know they are moral, they just keep doing what their fathers did is not a proof of anything except that morality is innate and may get corrupted later and that i do believe.

Why should Immoral people change?

If an immoral person has to ask that question, then the chances of their being a moral reconciliation are about slim, to none at all.

Beyond that, there is no reason that the rest of the world should give a flying rat's patootie. I mean, we're all born with the basic firmware of right and wrong. If we ignore the obvious simply to please the desires of the person in the mirror, the sin is nobody else's but our own.

So... if someone feels the urge to do something they know is wrong but feels compelled to share the guilt with the rest of humanity? That boat don't float, lol.

reply to post by logical7


You can say Qur'an is a new edition as the older were changed needing to restore the correct beliefs.

And the Quran needed the hadiths (written 200 years after mohammad) because the quran was found lacking?
See I really think you play around the bush, you dont come out straight saying the Torah, or Bible are incorrect but through the back door you add legitimacy to the Quran by saying it had a common but superior heritage. Well if the Quran was so good why the Hadiths. What happens in 1000 years time when Islam like any major civilization/philosophy is wiped out or reintepreted through Hadith with a completely different emphasis.

reply to post by logical7

morality is innate

I don't even know how to show you that this statement refutes everything you have previously said about belief in - and fear of - "God"'s wrath as the only real 'driver' of morality.

he din't just say it, he memorised it word to word, so did companions and today millions of muslims know it by heart. Many don't even know arabic yet remember the whole Qur'an. The fact that it can be memorised completely is amazing in itself. The only book that will remain till humans remain if all books were destroyed(including electronic) is Qur'an. You tell me how difficult is it to memorise a book in a foreign language without even knowing the language?

reply to post by logical7


So you're advocating rote mnemonic recital of a book of letters! Where does understanding and comprehension come into this? O I remember thats what you got Mullahs for.

reply to post by wildtimes

Seriously? You're not even keeping track of THIS discussion?? You say that 'therapy should be taken', but you earlier said that 'leaving God' instills the need for more therapy.

why can't both be true? I know what i say and what i have said. Some conditions need therapy and belief in God also help people cope. Godless people find life more meaningless and tend to get depressed more and some go to the extent of suicide.

I have answered you to the best of my
ability. I know more about Islam than
you apparently think I do. So what is
your real argument here? That with
religion (Islam), no one needs help or
'therapy' to sort out their confused and demoralized thinking?

i'l like to know what you know about Islam.
Islam does not make people have demoralized thinking but yes Islam can help and has helped people to come out of their wrong cultural indoctrinations including among muslim cultures.

That with Islam everyone would be all
"love and kisses" to the rest of the
world?

not if someone is committing genocides or oppressing people. Islam teaches to stop injustice by hands, if not that then by words, if not even that then feel it wrong in the heart and thats the least faith.
Maybe this will explain how/why i relate stronger faith to reduced injustice.

reply to post by TheConstruKctionofLight

Well if the Quran was so good why the Hadiths.

Qur'an is a manual for humans.
Prophet Muhammad pbuh was the prototype.
Hadiths are his sayings and explanations of following Qur'an properly.
Qur'an has general principles. Prophet taught things from religious rituals to how to be not an animal to the wife and have romantic talks before intercourse.
He was the living example of how to live the Qur'an.
Qur'an still is the 1st source and a hadith that goes against Qur'an is to be rejected.

Originally posted by TheConstruKctionofLight

he din't just say it, he memorised it word to word, so did companions and today millions of muslims know it by heart. Many don't even know arabic yet remember the whole Qur'an. The fact that it can be memorised completely is amazing in itself. The only book that will remain till humans remain if all books were destroyed(including electronic) is Qur'an. You tell me how difficult is it to memorise a book in a foreign language without even knowing the language?

reply to post by logical7

 

So you're advocating rote mnemonic recital of a book of letters! Where does understanding and comprehension come into this? O I remember thats what you got Mullahs for.

the one who can recite the entire Qur'an is called a Qari and one who understands it is called Fukaha.
Prophet Muhammad had said in his time that now there are few Qari and many Fukaha and there would come a time when there would be many Qari and few Fukaha.
We have scholars for sure but everyone should try and understand Qur'an and not blindly follow a mullah!

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

morality is innate

I don't even know how to show you that this statement refutes everything you have previously said about belief in - and fear of - "God"'s wrath as the only real 'driver' of morality.

maybe i should say, morality is innate but needs a belief in God to remain uncorrupted.

reply to post by logical7

not if someone is committing genocides or oppressing people. Islam teaches to stop injustice by hands, if not that then by words, if not even that then feel it wrong in the heart and thats the least faith.
Maybe this will explain how/why i relate stronger faith to reduced injustice.

What? I've read this four times now.

"Faith" has nothing to do with 'stopping injustice." How can you condemn my beliefs and still say that?

People 'do' know what feels 'wrong' in their hearts. Like you said, it's innate.

reply to post by logical7

f not even that then feel it wrong in the heart and thats the least faith.
Maybe this will explain how/why i relate stronger faith to reduced injustice.

Maybe.
But so far, your argument s not holding water. No belief in 'God''s 'wrath' is as powerful as recognizing how much one's upbringing and indoctrination affect their thinking..

It's too bad you don't realize that. Perhaps one day, you will.

reply to post by logical7


That is so backwards!

If morality is innate then it is innate! No need for anything to "reinforce" it. If anything, belief in a god makes people even more immoral. Take a look at the world today, it is by and large god-fearing, yet that still doesn't stop the faithful from killing each other and blowing each other up.

You are SO ignorant to the world around you. It's easy for you to say that those people don't follow the religion, and you may be right, but they use god as JUSTIFICATION for doing what they do! Muslims and Christians alike.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


bsic human nature is evil
and
needs external force to
instill morals and values.

reply to post by logical7


Yes, I just think Jesus and possibly Mohammad, who never wrote anything down were not religious. I believe they understood that there is only one father and we should all love each other. The idea of one creator transcends religion although no one can see that. Why should any dogma separate us from our brothers, science has proven common ancestry. The debate is over. We all came from a common ancestor somewhere back in time, no matter what theory you believe.

The problem, you can't make love your religion. If you go to church every sunday and the pastor simplified the message and simply said "do love", well you wouldn't feel a need to go back. Somehow we have let them make it more complicated than simply choosing to love one another. We were brainwashed by a system that our forefathers excepted that told us we were destine to sin.

It is time to wash our brains with the knowledge that comes from truly loving one another. There can only be one source of love and that source is there for each of us every day. If you were born you are loved. Can we stop saying "who does God love more", if we get in by merit forget it we ain't getting in. If we get in through love, which covers a multitude of sin, then maybe we still have a chance.

reply to post by wildtimes


I get it I got to go the brainwashing route with you. God is love, God is love. Just keep saying it tell you smile. Then you will be addicted to saying it. Hahahahaha Brainwashed God is love............

reply to post by slugger9787


Bull####! Are you evil? No, it is the vast minority that is evil, not the majority. Why are you putting others wrongs onto yourself? I'm not evil and it is NOT in my nature, you saying so is offensive. Do you consider yourself evil? If not then you are wrong in your assumption.

reply to post by logical7

Sharia is a preventive system, it identifies the root cause of social evils and problems and lays laws to crush it in the bud.

And yet: Sharia Law:

Women are eligible for only half of the inheritance of men.
Virgins may be married against their will by a father or grandfather.
Women may not leave the house without a husband's permission.
Men can marry four women and beat insubordinate wives.
A woman's testimony in court is worth half that of men.

Seems like the objective is to CRUSH women in the bud...by your own dictates you are condemned