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Why should Immoral people change?

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posted on May, 10 2013 @ 10:33 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


Your original questions:

What will motivate immoral people to want to change towards better?

Acknowledging that they are not truly happy and figuring out why. Learning other life skills and coping skills that are not counterproductive. It takes insight, and hard work, and practice, and determination to change.


What can be a counter force to selfishness, greed, lust etc that works?

Acknowledging that those behaviors do not result in being truly happy and having peace of mind. They result only in a never-ending hamster wheel of more, more, more. And it's never "enough."

True happiness comes from within. We reap what we sow. Exploiting others does not feel right for normal people - as for psychopaths and sociopaths, their characters are already bankrupt - and nothing will change them. Hence they are the immoral rulers of the world. They are incapable of remorse or compassion. It's a personality disorder.

We need people like the Dalai Lama and Pope Francis (provided that he is sincere in his intentions as stated) in charge.

That is all I have to say regarding this thread. You might consider two things for future negotiations:
1) take some time to study actual Psychology in depth, and explore how manipulation works. Particularly early childhood development, parenting, indoctrination, family systems, and group dynamics. Sociology. Anthropology.

2) stop calling people "ignorant" because they disagree with you.

I also wonder about your comprehension skills and/or your command of English.




posted on May, 10 2013 @ 11:12 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


thats nice philosophy. It gets derived from making a supplementary NT into a full new religion.
Someone claiming to love God should show it in action. "love God with all your heart, mind and strength". God should become the centre of life, not money, career or a person.
So basically you are agreeing with me.



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


love and lust
often get confused.

love defined from bible:
1 Corinthians 13:4-8
New International Version (NIV)

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

using love as a qualifier explain why murder and suicide rates for homosexual groups is so high.?
why is death from STI so high?
explain why multiple partners in one year is so high?
explain why one gay man intentionally gives another gay man AIDS by tearing the rubber?
explain how these fall under the definition of love.
edit on 9-5-2013 by slugger9787 because: psuedoenlightenedone


Where in that verse does it say homosexuals are unable to love someone of the same sex?

So you ignore the murder and suicide rates of heterosexuals? How typical.
They are much higher than homosexuals. Where are you getting your numbers from again? You forget to consider how people like you ridiculing them probably leads to their suicides. You should feel ashamed.

What about the multiple partners of heterosexuals?

I guess you ignore the heterosexual STD death rates? Homosexuality was around long before STD's were.


Where in the world did you get that gay men intentionally gives others AIDS?! How Ignorant.


edit on 10-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 12:23 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


so basically you are suggesting counselling sessions for immoral people.
Thats another thing i want to point out. When people leave God, they start needing more therapists!
Because they are hardwired to believe by God.

That is all I have to say regarding this
thread. You might consider two things
for future negotiations:
1) take some time to study actual Psychology in depth, and explore how manipulation works. Particularly
early childhood development,
parenting, indoctrination, family
systems, and group dynamics.
Sociology. Anthropology. 2) stop calling people "ignorant"
because they disagree with you. I also wonder about your
comprehension skills and/or your
command of English.

1) i may not have studied psychology as a subject but i am a lot interested in it.
But knowing psychology does not make you an authority on morality. As you have acknowledged that you have learnt relative morality and believed its universal. Other stricter moral systems(Islam) are equally valid. Neither can you call others 'brainwashed'. You can and should find out how much you are conditioned by your own society.
2) i called you ignorant because you are, at least about Islam, its also arrogant to tell a muslim or a christian that their religion is the problem etc etc and claiming to have been 'enlightened'.
My comprehension is good Alhamdulillah(thanks to Allah). My english may not be that good but i can communicate.
Btw the mention of my comprehension and language tells a lot about you.



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 12:38 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 



Btw the mention of my comprehension and language tells a lot about you.

Yes, it tells you that I wonder about your comprehension and mastery of English. You have repeatedly failed to retain information I've given you over and over again. Perhaps you don't pay attention to your correspondents as well as I do. Perhaps you don't recall all the "what do you mean when you say that" exchanges we have had.

Therapy was my profession - and I have bookshelves FULL of professional texts. I UNDERSTAND as well as anyone how societies work, how power and manipulation work, how religions work, and how people THINK. I've made a life's work out of it.

You have now become hostile, insulting, and argumentative - which tells a lot about you.
I've seen you get that way with others, but to date you haven't done that with me. Perhaps I'm the one who's been fooled into believing you were really seeking mutual understanding. Clearly you are now just pissed off and grasping at ways to "get back at me."

Many people who turn to "God" after immoral behavior (it happens OFTEN in jails and prisons or after near-death catastrophies or overwhelming remorse) would do better to get therapy. A good therapist is every bit as (actually, probably more) capable as a 'faith-based' counselor.
EDIT: Having said that, a sociopath or psychopath is BEYOND HELP. You are talking about sociopathic and psychopathic behavior, not simple "morality."

But that's your business if you want to simply condemn the West and discredit long-established psychology and competent therapists.

Way to burn a bridge. Not very 'peaceful' or 'tolerant' of you. I've SEEN the damage done by zealous religious teaching. I've helped people undo it, including working with adult people whose "fear" of God and hell has ruined their ability to live their lives without constant and perpetual self-loathing. It has BROKEN their natural exuberance, their hearts, and their spirits. How is that good? Answer: It is not.

I speak out against zealous extremists of ALL religions, but your latest turn-off into blaming Western culture for the world's ills is unbalanced in favor of religion, and is extreme, and I will never agree to it.

I respectfully bid you good day.
edit on 10-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


I've come to realize that when someone hears something they don't agree with or something that directly contradicts their own beliefs, they tend to discard the information soon after they receive it, even if it makes sense and is completely logical.

It's a defense mechanism and they discard this contradictory information because it causes conflict within their own minds. The best way to rid them of this conflict is to erase it and continue to have the same beliefs. Religious folk are usually the main culprits most of the time, that's why you see them asking the same questions over and over or covering the same ground except in a slightly different way.
edit on 10-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 





yes, but selfless service doing people are not enough. "for evil to take over its enough that good people do nothing" in a philosophical sense evil is just absence of good. It is very essential that a wrong is called as wrong and stopped by action or atleast words.


Your OP talked about moral/immoral damage caused, now you introduce evil. Lets go back a step and lets define morals as being rules that come from within, ethics are usually imposed from without by society.

from wiki Absence of good: (en.wikipedia.org...)
"The privation of good (Latin: privatio boni) is a theological doctrine that evil, unlike good, is insubstantial, so that thinking of it as an entity is misleading. Instead, evil is rather the absence or lack ("privation") of good.[1][2][3] It is typically attributed to St. Augustine of Hippo, who wrote: And in the universe, even that which is called evil, when it is regulated and put in its own place, only enhances our admiration of the good; for we enjoy and value the good more when we compare it with the evil. For the Almighty God, who, as even the heathen acknowledge, has supreme power over all things, being Himself supremely good, would never permit the existence of anything evil among His works, if He were not so omnipotent and good that He can bring good even out of evil. For what is that which we call evil but the absence of good? "

Early on the thread Omegal Logos and NotUrTypical jumped straight in and introduced the Abrahamaic god as an agent outside of ourselves and the absence thereof to explain the nature of evil.
Why dont we set some some ground rules.

A definition of morals: "Principles or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct.It defines how things should work according to an individuals' ideals and principles."
Note an individuals' ideals.

In ancient cultures in mormonism and islam it is ok to have many wives. Western Law states that this is unlawful. Lets say if one wants to practise polyamory its an individuals choice. We judge them as immoral and yet if they are in a loving relationship as consenting adults why should it be illegal for them to be married?

From Logicals profile I presume they are of the Islamic faith...you see I have a problem with with the judgemental nature of all 3 of the abrahamic faiths. They are the first to look over someones elses fence and cast the first "stoning stone" all because of a book and an outside "agent" (god) who defines and rationalizes in their minds how they they judge and condem.

Just the other day my wife and I walked past a married moslem with a full on beard with his wife seating meekly next to him. My wife was dressed conservativley and yet he checked her out with a long stare from top to bottom.
If I wasnt usually a pacifist I would've knocked him out but all I had was loathing and pity for his state.
This is what religion does, it creates unhealthy atttitudes, it creates an us and them.
I'm starting to actually suspect that monogamy and other morals may have a biological gene as a survival trait.
I beleive and I could be wrong but maybe we also have a "religious" gene that predisposes one to be a follower and need a beleif in an god/outside saviour/heaven/hell. Same as there are born sociopaths who never had a chance but be anything other than evil.

"All evil needs is the silence of the good" Well either people are too lazy to overthrow all ruling nations leaders who wage war for economic reasons, and yes all wars are economc in nature but often hide behind religious justification, or Man is inherently evil or a sheep or both. What other conclusion could one draw or do we subscribe to gnosticism whereby this planet is ruled by the deimurge?

"It is very essential that a wrong is called as wrong and stopped by action"
It is wrong that the bankers rule the world and yet without peoples greed and wanting what they couldnt afford they wouldnt be in the mess when the GFC happened . Tell me what is wrong with people losing their houses that they couldnt afford. No one forced them to sign? A child starves in Africa we say thats wrong and yet allow the elderly to be mistreated in nursing homes or to not have the individual choice of dying at their own chosen time. We have allowed reilgion and the state to take the hard decisions away from us. We have abrogated self responsibilty.
All we get fed is Bread and Circuses



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 





Going outside without SPF 25 does that.

Actually you should research what goes into Sunscreen before you start preaching a bit about skin cancer. Now why would they want us to beleive that the sun is bad for us other than perhaps to keep us indoors unhealthy and lacking in viatmin D and exercise. A whole generation bought up on SPF 25 keeps a new generation of doctors in "unwellness" business



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 01:05 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 





the tribe knows it because each baby is born with it. Its the society that corrupts it an God is needed to restore it. The tribe may already have a belief of no god yet maintained their sense of right and wrong.


So therefore they had no need of God, or Original sin...hehe



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 01:13 PM
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Only atheist can think that a criminal who did not value another life should be allowed to live as their is nothing after death and the one who died is already dead so lets not worry about the victim
reply to post by logical7
 



WOW ..now I'm starting to get a clearer people of Islamic thinking and its logical conclusion "one world under sharia law"

I used to be accepting of of them as a people but I'm afraid comments like that go to the very heart of their thinking and motives. They wont be happy unless all non muslims convert
For anyone interested theres a good site "http://gatesofvienna.net/" full of knowledge on Islams dark side



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 01:18 PM
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According to the Christian position I would say that all people are born with God's laws naturally programmed into their consciousness
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Then what need for Jesus or original sin? hehe...shooting yourself in the foot



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 01:20 PM
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reply to post by TheConstruKctionofLight
 


It's called "double-think" and the religious are infamous for it. Even I was guilty of it at one point in my life.



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 01:23 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


No, basic human nature is the way God created man, in the image of Himself which is to love. Sin corrupts that.

See, now why did you go and do that...now u have to create satan as well...otherwise...(and I'm talking about the absent blind deaf non-omniscient jehovah in the garden of eden) the gnostic deimurge rules this world



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 01:30 PM
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reply to post by TheConstruKctionofLight
 

I'm glad you've joined the thread. Good points.

What are your 'suggestions' to the original OP questions?



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 01:39 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 





yes its innate. A baby naturally shows shyness about his/her nakedness after a certain age


And what about amazon, african tribes and others wher the females show their breasts. Wow you ceratinly sound close minded. Shyness is a social conditioning tool. If everyone walked around naked maybe there would be no temptation. What you actually fear is women regaining control of their bodies to be used as they see fit other than to be in constant childbirth making more babies for the faith.
Tell me again that education and freedom of thought are encouraged in Islamic arabic countries! Show me the proof that women fare equally with men.
Islamic women are treated as chattel, western women through their freedoms have become slaves to Marketing where a certain body image gets them what they want. Both come from lack of critical thinking



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 01:50 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 





Do you think that christian leaders causing wars and genocides are doing it because they think God is love? Then its sick.


I could point to numerous genocides by muslims, how about the Greeks and the Armenians in recent history to begin with

OR

www.freerepublic.com...
for some really eye opening material on the "peaceful nature of Islam" At least show some respect for ATS readers intelligence.



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by TheConstruKctionofLight
 


Yep! If clothes do anything, they promote self-consciousness and bad body image. It's all about perpetual self-doubt and deprecation in my opinion.

I find it ironic that log7 agrees that morals and ethics are based on society yet can't see how nudity fits the same bill.
Cognitive dissonance and double-think have been pretty prevalent in this thread so far.



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


Well....they also keep us warm! Or sheltered from over-exposure to sun. I know I feel chilly most of the time.
But in super-hot weather, I wear simple sleeveless dresses with short skirts. It's more comfortable. Then again, I have shade outside, and 'climate control' inside my home.

Clothing was 'invented' to shelter us from the elements, since we have no "fur." It had nothing to do with "God"!

Aside from that, I totally agree with you.

edit on 10-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 





NO, naturist teach them to live that way. At birth the baby is unaware of self, when the awareness of body comes, then the shyness comes. It will go if trained otherwise.


Dont play word games, when the awareness of self comes the ego comes, nakedness and the idea of impure thoughts is a value judgement imposed from without...or are you saying that men cannot be trusted they are nothing but animals on "heat". Or maybe you need to blame women as your women are all dressed the same with their bodies covered; you take a lucky dip when you propose to a women. I mean she cant tell you how she thinks, she cant speak freely, if she is fully covered you dont see what you're getting, Yep I'm mean totally understandable if you want a compliant female ruled by the man who in turn is ruled by the mullah. Not much different than a village sheep herder who keeps the sheep in line.

Islam= submission to god
And yet the Hadiths were written by man!!



posted on May, 10 2013 @ 02:08 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 





You have repeatedly failed to retain information I've given you over and over again. Perhaps you don't pay attention to your correspondents as well as I do.

or you took my 'general' comments as direct towards you or even as attacking you.
Example, i had said, "believe it or not but beliefs affect deeply" (something like that) and you jumped and gave me a lecture on how well you know that!!
Another one, when i had told you about extent of domestic violence, you again snapped and told me, you know it well. I din't knew till then that you had handled domestic violence cases. I only knew that you were a family therapist.

You have now become hostile,
insulting, and argumentative - which
tells a lot about you. I've seen you get that way with others, but to date
you haven't done that with me.

because you were respectful and had shown openess to discuss. Now i don't see it. If i blamed the west for wars, i always meant the western powers and tried to keep the distinction. Maybe you also didn't retain my view about western people.

Many people who turn to "God" after
immoral behavior (it happens OFTEN in
jails and prisons or after near-death
catastrophies or overwhelming
remorse) would do better to get
therapy. A good therapist is every bit as capable (actually maybe more
capable) as a 'faith-based' counselor.

i don't agree. I am not claiming 'faith-based' counselor are better, they can be jerks.
I am saying turning to God is good and therapy should be taken. If your suggestion is therapy as alternative to God then you are just pushing you view and no different than an evangelical christian trying to catch a potential member.

I've SEEN
the damage done by zealous religious
teaching. I've helped people undo it,
including working with adult people
who's "fear" of God and hell has ruined their ability to live their lives
without constant and perpetual self-
loathing. It has BROKEN their natural
exuberance, their hearts, and their
spirits. How is that good? Answer: It is
not.

it is not. It does not mean those beliefs have only caused damage. Anything in extreme is bad, belief in hell is no exception.
To much self-esteem becomes hautiness/arrogance, the same with a belief of a person who thinks he/she is good/moral because of himself/herself.
A balance is needed, you cannot point at extreme cases to prove a belief as wrong.

your latest turn-
off into blaming Western culture for
the world's ills is unbalanced in favor
of religion, and is extreme, and I will
never agree to it.

it appears extreme to you because you are used to see wrongs and have got desensatized. I am not blaming whole of western culture but parts that promote lust and greed.

From CNN Correspondent Garrick Utley NEW YORK (CNN) -- As scientists note
the arrival of the six billionth human
being on the planet, they also are
warning that 16 percent of the world's
population is consuming some 80
percent of its natural resources. That's the estimated toll the wealthiest
populations on the globe -- the United
States, Europe and Japan -- are taking
from the earth's natural bounty to
sustain their way of life. In the U.S. alone, says Emily Matthews
of the World Resources Institute, every
man, woman and child is responsible
for the consumption of about 25 tons
of raw materials each year. Americans, while making up only four
percent
of the world's population,
operate one third of its automobiles.
U.S. citizens consume one quarter of
the world's global energy supply.




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