Why should Immoral people change?

reply to post by wildtimes

Stricter moral laws? The laws in place in the USA are strict enough to deter murder, theft, rape, hate crimes, and justice is handed down by the people elected to do so.

i said moral not just criminal laws. The laws you mention are based on individual direct crimes and misdoings, what about indirect anti social acts, exploitation, oppressive economic system, these are actually protected by the state. Greed kills more people than murderers do
Your law and system is based on the philosophy of 'cure' of problems, mostly by throwing money at it or by throwing bombs!. The better and effective way is 'prevention' as we have agreed before.
Sharia is a preventive system, it identifies the root cause of social evils and problems and lays laws to crush it in the bud.
Like no interest and compulsory charity makes sure nobody is economically exploited and nobody goes hungry.
No alcohol, so no deaths due to drunk driving.
No gambling, so no men losing money that they needed to support family etc

reply to post by wildtimes

If a woman decides to become a porn star, that's her choice.

What else can we expect from women raised in a culture that celebrates pornography and promiscuity?

Porn isn't as widespread as you think - some people like it - most do not have anything to do with it.

Nonetheless, it exists as a multi-billion dollar industry.

Divorce occurs when they discover they are NOT compatible or happy together.

Divorce also occurs when one of the partners cheat on their spouses... or decided that he'd rather be with other partners. This is a theme that commonly occurs in your movies and tv shows, which is nothing but a reflection of your own society.

What is it with you people and sex??? It's NORMAL. It's BIOLOGY.

In human society, sex is regulated... it takes place within the institution of marriage and in private.
Strangely where you live , 13 year olds still in school are having sex and condom makers are marketing condoms for kids.Once again, a reflection of your society.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Tell me, would you let yourself be seen "uncovered" by a random stranger?

Nude? No! I already said in our society people don't go around nude. There are the random "nude beaches" and "nudist camps", but I've never been to one, nor had any inclination to do so. I think it's disgusting when big fat men wander around outside with no shirt on - and the "average" body in the West is not a sylph-like piece of sculpture.

Some people are attracted to fat people. I am not. Whatever floats your boat.

But I've worn bikinis during swimming hundreds of times. No big deal. Never been raped. And I have a "nice" body, and I have allowed myself to be nude with friends from time to time. "Skinny-dipping" or hot-tubbing, for example. Also, women and men alike go to saunas where nudity is the norm. More in Europe than here. And kids in school have to shower as a group after Physical Education class. Nude for everyone to see. Boys do so separate from girls.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

What else can we expect from women raised in a culture that celebrates pornography and promiscuity?

Oh for heaven's sake! Exaggerate much?

Women who go about dressed like hookers (prostitutes or "hoochy-mommas") make themselves look like fools.
There are dress codes in place!!! Most people observe them!!

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Then if you think our society is so depraved, keep out of it! Don't come here! It's none of your damned business anyway.
We're doing fine without you imposing your "values" on us.

You have probably - as reflected by your posts - NEVER been to a Western country, have you? Let alone spent time in one to see how mistaken you are. :shk: Who are you to tell me what my society is or isn't? To judge it from afar?

At least I'm on here trying to learn more FROM NON-WESTERNERS. And I get to watch news from around the world, and movies from around the world. You can stay in your backwater society, just don't be bringing it to my door or telling me yours is "superior."

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Strangely where you live , 13 year olds still in school are having sex

And strangely where YOU live, girls don't even GET to go to school, and are FORCED into marriage at age 13.

Sex is a normal function of puberty and a normal biological drive. Kids find a way. You'd just kill them, though, right?
Or lock them away?

There is a wonderful movie called "Dangerous Beauty" about Venice in the 16th century - and one of the best lines in it is this:
"No biblical hell could EVER be worse than a state of perpetual inconsequence."

reply to post by logical7

The laws are based on morals. Sharia is a set of laws, is it not?
And I have no argument with you about greed and war. They are both wrong.

reply to post by wildtimes


Exactly. Theres a limit to everything.
Your ideas about the body "being beautiful and nothing to be covered", stops working when its your own body and a stranger involved.

Similarly, sex is wonderful and all, but there IS a limit to it as well. Meaning, its limited to marriage. Its not exactly an expression that can be as casual as a handshake.

Oh for heaven's sake! Exaggerate much?

I meant what I said.
Women who choose to become porn actors only do so because they grew up in a world where sex comes and goes like handshakes. Those who do become porn actors are used to it by the time they are eighteen. Again your media also plays a large role.... in its constant portrayal of women as sex objects... and sex as a casual thing. Its there in your movies and your tv shows and your music.

This is not even an exclusively Islamic perspective. Even conservative Christian groups acknowledge that their youth are being exposed to sexual themes in the media.

This is a FACT and there have been numerous studies on it...

Lots of links

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Again your media also plays a large role.... in its constant portrayal of women as sex objects... and sex as a casual thing. Its there in your movies and your tv shows and your music.

Oh, right, every time we turn on the television there's some people having sex. "Constant portrayal"?
That is ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous and incorrect.

We have a choice whether to watch those shows, movies, music videos. Many of them I find repulsive and over the top, so I don't watch them. It's very easy to turn off the program. It's not so easy to turn off PROGRAMMING of the brain.

Parents here routinely put "controls" on their computers and televisions to keep their kids AWAY from porn, etc.
Good God you really, really have a skewed impression. And that is a fact. Probably it was programmed into you from birth to "hate" the West and view it as some demonic thing. Wrong.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Even conservative Christian groups acknowledge that their youth are being exposed to sexual themes in the media.

"Conservative Christian groups" are the equivalent of your Islamist extremists. They are the flip side of the same bizarre and zealous coin of exaggeration and hatred.

reply to post by wildtimes

You have probably - as reflected by your posts - NEVER been to a Western country, have you?

One does not need to travel to Beijing to learn that its rather polluted.

You can stay in your backwater society, just don't be bringing it to my door or telling me yours is "superior.

Whatever I said on this thread was in response to YOU telling us that your culture is superior.

And strangely where YOU live, girls don't even GET to go to school, and are FORCED into marriage at age 13.

Ummmm.. but you don't even know where I live!!

Sex is a normal function of puberty and a normal biological drive. Kids find a way.

Kids (where you live) will find a way because society enables it. The condom vending machines in schools also may have something to do with it.

Also, sex being a biological drive applies to animals, that are driven by instinct whos main purpose in life is to multiply. But for humans, sex has limits. Its not just Muslims who believe this, but even Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs etc.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Ummmm.. but you don't even know where I live!!

And I asked you. It's your fault that I don't know.

And it's your fault that you don't understand normal daily society among American citizens. The information is here. I'm giving it to you. Are you calling me a liar?

reply to post by wildtimes

Young girls who go into prostitution are the victims of others who put them into those situations - oftentimes homeless runaways. Who runs away from home? Mistreated children. Low self-worth and self- loathing is linked to prostitution - and .... wait for it.... religion that teaches original sin, hell, and worthlessness is ALSO linked to low self-worth and self-loathing.

thats one part, what about kids of teenage mothers, drunk abusive fathers, drug addicts, even alcoholic mothers. Kids raised in broken, violent families.
Do you know the extent of domestic violence in USA? I will not give the statistics as you won't believe me, search it yourself.
I am just pointing the ills in your society and Sc0rpie is doing the same, do you have a 'cure' or 'prevention' of those ills?
The first thing you can do is accept it, we are not imposing sharia on you just discussing, if anything seems reasonable then agree to it.

reply to post by wildtimes

What would happen to a Muslim who decided to renounce Islam? Especially the "ignorant masses" variety...? Your book says they should be killed. A girl who looks at an unrelated boy? Kill her, too. Maim her, at least. That's "moral" in your opinion?

two words "sensationalism" "ignorance"

The Urantia Papers, pg 52, paper 3, section 5, paragraph 15 (emphasis in the original text):

Source
(52.1) 3:5.15 Throughout the universe, every unit is regarded as a part of the whole. Survival of the part is dependent on co-operation with the plan and purpose of the whole, the wholehearted desire and perfect willingness to do the Father’s divine will. The only evolutionary world without error (the possibility of unwise judgment) would be a world without free intelligence. In the Havona universe there are a billion perfect worlds with their perfect inhabitants, but evolving man must be fallible if he is to be free. Free and inexperienced intelligence cannot possibly at first be uniformly wise. The possibility of mistaken judgment (evil) becomes sin only when the human will consciously endorses and knowingly embraces a deliberate immoral judgment.

reply to post by logical7

Do you know the extent of domestic violence in USA? I will not give the statistics as you won't believe me, search it yourself.
I am just pointing the ills in your society and Sc0rpie is doing the same, do you have a 'cure' or 'prevention' of those ills?

Okay, I'm getting really frustrated with your inability to remember what I have told you about myself, my background, and my profession.

YES I know the extent of domestic violence! There are MANY, MANY people working to stop it, to PREVENT it, and I am one of those people - for God's sake!! Did you not catch that I was a mental health clinician? That it was my CHOSEN CAREER to learn the ways to prevent those things from happening?

Okay, I'm going to step away now, because you appear to be acting deliberately belligerent, and I'm tired of repeating myself to you. I live here. I was in the trenches for YEARS and SAW the effects of bad parenting and poor upbringing.

I never said our society is perfect. Yours is not perfect either, and you STILL haven't answered my questions regarding the treatment of girls and women in India, or the case of the Westboro Baptist Church "defectors."

So, I'm done with this pointless argument. Round and round, and counter-productive.

reply to post by wildtimes

Oh, right, every time we turn on the television there's some people having sex. "Constant portrayal"?

No, what I meant was that sex has turned into an extremely casual theme in movies and tv shows. Compare the movies/tv shows of the last 3 decades or so to movies that were made in the 50's. The media simply reflects a society for what it is and its clear that a lot of things have changed in the last couple of decades.

Also did you read some of the links I posted?

We have a choice whether to watch those shows, movies, music videos. Many of them I find repulsive and over the top, so I don't watch them. It's very easy to turn off the program.

Peoples individual choice to NOT watch those shows has no bearing on the fact that the media publishes repulsive movies and shows. This media also happens to be a product of your society.

Parents here routinely put "controls" on their computers and televisions to keep their kids AWAY from porn, etc.

Like you said earlier, "kids will find a way".

reply to post by logical7

two words "sensationalism" "ignorance"

five words. "right back at you, dude."
I'm out of here.

reply to post by eli9x


I read the Urantia Book thirty years ago. It had a lot going for it and impacted my beliefs quite a bit.

reply to post by wildtimes

The laws are based on morals. Sharia is a set of laws, is it not?

Sharia is based on morals and "preventive"
your laws are not all based on morals, cheating is ok, greed is ok, lust is ok. How can a society be harmonious when greedy rich keep sucking wealth from the middle class and create an extremely poor section of society, who rob and murder for money and you put them in prison and again the middle class pays the rich companies to keep criminals away. its ridiculous
how is people's greed exploited and then they are told to buy now and pay later with a high interest and they are made economic slaves to buy sparkling trinkets which are worth nothing after a few months.

The respect for women/girls is getting less and less, look at some advertisments and you'l see.
A guy applies deodrant X and girls run to want him!!! Really? Are girls so shallow? I think not, i know about west and i know how western girls are.
But wildtimes, i'l like you to go out and find the opinion of men about women in general at your place and you would be surprised, maybe you live in a smaller town, they are much more moral. Find out about bigger cities and you'l know that maybe sc0rpie has a point.
Don't feel attacked and go on defensive wildtimes, we are not going to conquer your neighourhood