Thank You CIA

Originally posted by Hopechest

Originally posted by EricR


Agreed.

The CIA was created in the National Security Act of 1947. This law looks like it was purpose built to overthrow the US Government. The only thing more tragic than the creation of the CIA was the creation of the "National Security Council" in the same law. It's the worst joke on us since the Federal Reserve was rubber stamped into existence in 1913.

That's rather silly don't you think?

No.

Originally posted by Hopechest
And the CIA does quite a bit more than "run drugs" as many people think. Their intelligence gathering, of which the President often uses, is second to none. Do you not think the President should have access to the most up to date information when making national decisions?

I'm quite sure the CIA does more than traffic in narcotics. If I cared to use my time on that issue right now, bet I could pull together documented evidence of CIA trafficking in sex slaves, nuclear materials, biological/chemical/conventional weapons and anything else illegal and labeled "contraband". They coordinate real well with the White House. Just ask Holder.

As to intelligence gathering, I'm quite sure the CIA are experts at "sexing up the evidence" of WMD. No doubt they were experts at determining Saddam was trying to acquire yellowcake in Africa. And on-the-ground evidence shows they are quite skilled at gathering intel and piloting missile drones to murder terrorists (aka civilian men, women and children).

Our government ..... our executive ..... has gone far beyond criminality and is now firmly embedded in the state-sponsored terror camp. Such people make their own facts. And what they consider the gospel today, will be declared the purview of heretics tomorrow. Whatever is convenient at the time. A perfect match for the CIA.

reply to post by EricR


As I stated, you can't be a nice guy while playing with the baddest people on earth.

I'm sure in a utopian world we wouldn't need to have a department that does bad things but thats not reality.

As for your examples maybe they do do those things but not just because they have some time to kill. It is undoubtably helping them accomplish a larger goal.

Drone attacks for example. Sure they may take out civilians but they also take out the bad guys who may have eventually taken out more civilians at some later date.

The CIA has to make the hard choices and their rules are not always clear. Its not like law enforcement who has a law they can rely on to guide them. The CIA certainly isn't perfect but they also are not evil like you claim.

Feel free to blame Presidents and Congress who task them with their jobs.

Some people are incredibly naïve in thinking that the CIA does not participate in operations (i.e. their activities are limited to gathering of information). Their MO is manipulate people through threats, bribes, payoffs, blackmail, disinformation & propaganda, and any other means to achieve the desired end. The person who hires the hit man is just as guilty as the hit man once the trigger is pulled.

Originally posted by Hopechest
Torturing millions huh?

Their employee list must be huge to accomplish that. They do plenty of good work such as intelligence gathering and its the Congress that should be blamed for the harm.

I can only guess that you watch a lot of TV. You would be better served in the library stacks.

Did you know that torture was applied in the Vietnam war? Look up the term "pump and dump" of the Vietnam era. THE CIA/military tortured uncounted numbers of men, women and children to death. Then they dumped the bodies like so much trash. Same thing in various parts of Central/South America.

The US School of the Americas (name now changed) even taught murder and torture to the armies of South and Central America. It was said that the Salvadorian troops that raped and murdered nuns were graduates of that brainwashing academy.

As always ... there's more. Much more. But you have to open your eyes before you can realize just how subhuman these monsters really are.

reply to post by EricR


But it was millions huh?

The CIA doesn't have the staff to rack up that many kills. Have they never done bad things?

They probably have but there are bad apples in every agency and since the CIA operates outside of the country without strict rules to follow I'm sure there have been times when bad things happened.

They also need to do bad things to accomplish their job sometimes also. Remember that the CIA gets its orders from the President, they don't write their own policy and its their job to inform the President with accurate analysis of the entire globe.

When you have a President who is making critical national decisions that could affect millions of lives you'd better make sure your getting him what he needs. So yes, I'm sure the CIA has gotten that information in some pretty bad ways but you can't really do it while being nice.

Good article on OPERATION PHOENIX.

or better yet PROJECT CHERRY

Originally posted by lynxpilot
Good article on OPERATION PHOENIX.

or better yet PROJECT CHERRY

Good articles but it sort of proves my point.

At that time our nation was extremely worried that if Vietnam fell to the communists it would start a domino effect all throughout Asia and spread to the Middle East. As your second article shows, the vietcong were extremely violent and brutal.

Having this type of communism spread to other countries would end up causing far more death than what the CIA was doing, which by the way, they got the idea from the Vietcong themselves. As I've stated, you can't be nice and play with these types of people.

Was it a horrible operation? Yes but you can see their reasoning for it. They weren't just out killing people because they had nothing better to do.

Who were we (US) to decide what type of government Laos, Cambodia, or Viet Nam could have? And what are "these types of people"?

Like I said before, the ends don't justify the means. Furthermore, CIA participation in coups, besides all of the torture, death, and misery that precipitated from it, have never, ever been successful. There is no country that is better off for having the CIA-installed leader.

If we can accept the behavior of past CIA operations on the premise that it's for the greater good, then we expose ourselves to more threats than we can imagine. The so-called enemies the CIA is supposed to be subverting wouldn't be hatching terrorist plans if we didn't give them such good reasons to despise us.

Who were we (US) to decide what type of government Laos, Cambodia, or Viet Nam could have? And what are "these types of people"?

The Soviet Union was going through an expansionist policy at the time and Vietnam became the battleground of communism and democracy. It was decided to fight the war there. As I stated, our leaders believed that if Vietnam went communist that it would have a domino effect around the world causing even more damage than what occurred in their country. We saw how Stalin basically sent North Korea into the South and that once other nations fell we would see wars all over the world.

Of course with hindsight we can see that the fears were not real but they didn't know that at the time. Starting with Truman, who sent the first advisors there, we were determined not to lose Vietnam. Eventually though, many factors came together that did force us out.

What a bunch of ridiculousness...

It's true that not everyone in the CIA is evil or bad, but those who are have corrupted the "law enforcement agency", as someone naively called it, beyond salvation. They and their actions are not defendable, in my eyes. And their are countless examples of their treachery that works counter to the notion that the US is a righteous and just people trying to spread democracy to the world.

The CIA trying to trick Kennedy into an invasion of Cuba - where do you think that would have ended up? Would things have turned out any better than they actually did, or worse?

The CIA not only helped create conditions that brought Cambodia's Khmer Rouge to power in 1975,
but actively supported the genocidal force, politically and financially. They installed their puppet Lon Nol and when he failed to complete the mission, they installed Pol Pot. Then the real 'attrition' began - millions, yes millions, of innocent Cambodians were slaughtered.

As far as communism, the USSR was no fairy tale and they certainly needed to be defeated, but it looks like we became the monster we so wanted to destroy. Not only that, but you cannot be so naive, Communism and Capitalism are just more tools of the trade for the monied interests to wage war and make more money. They use it as an excuse. The CIA has even orchestrated the overthrow of leaders who were once thought to be great supporters of ours and allies against communism.

Democratically elected and subsequently overthrown by CIA:
Mosadsegh in Iran in 53 because he wanted oil profits to stay at home. Oh no! Communist! Shah installed, ruled with iron fist. Led directly to Iranian Revolution and our hostages being taken
Arbenz in 54 because he allowed communists to form a party in his country, though he had none in his government. Also, threatened the land of agro giant United Fruit. Oh no! Another communist! Military junta installed, murder rape torture ensues.

Spread democracy? Spreading death.

Intelligence gathering is very important but from the beginning the CIA has been created and run by the bad guys and if we still want to call ourselves a good people and nation, which is a joke now based on our leaders actions in our name, the CIA itself must go and another organization must take it's place with stricter oversight and lessons learned applied.

Anything that secret and powerful is never good. And they are not serving the best interests of the American people. Not with so much drug running, gun running, illegal spying, assassinations, funding of terrorism, deceitfulness.

Just watch the Church Committee hearings.

They serve someone's best interest. It's not ours.

I like how in the original article, the following reasons/uses are given for the money:

"This is not unusual," he told reporters, adding that the money was spent by his office and the national security office for a variety of purposes, including paying salaries, helping the war wounded and providing scholarships.

Yeah, right.

Our country spends so much money on trying to make fair weather friends. What kind of idiots did we allow to get in charge of our country. As soon as you cut their money they find the worst thing to do to retaliate. Kind of sounds like the FAA and the tower closures I guess we are treating these countries as we do our own bureaucracies.

The military industrial complex has their hands in all the pies.

Democrat / Republican - they are both puppets.

reply to post by PatriotGames2

It's true that not everyone in the CIA is evil or bad, but those who are have corrupted the "law enforcement agency", as someone naively called it, beyond salvation.

Actually I said they were not a law enforcement agency because they aren't. If the CIA has bad apples or policies then weed them out and change them but we need the tools they give us. How is the President supposed to make informed decisions if we have no one gathering intelligence for us? What if we want to bring in some top defectors from a country, who is going to go get them. Who is going to run our counter-intelligence operations to locate any spies in our government?

The CIA trying to trick Kennedy into an invasion of Cuba

They did not try and trick him into an invasion of Cuba. The Bay of Pigs was already in motion when he came into office and those things are very hard to change once they start rolling. As for invasion plans it wasn't the CIA but all of Kennedy's advisors. Once Kennedy saw the photos of the missiles he asked for advice and almost instantly his whole room recommended an invasion. During a break it was his brother who said they needed more options so Kennedy told them to come up with something else and we got the blockade. Wasn't the CIA at all.

The CIA not only helped create conditions that brought Cambodia's Khmer Rouge to power in 1975,
but actively supported the genocidal force, politically and financially.

The CIA does not support anyone financially or politically. They do what their boss in the executive branch tells them to. Do you think the CIA just sits around and decides who to fund or support without direct authority? I suppose you believe that Reagan knew nothing about the Iran-Contra scandel also.

Democratically elected and subsequently overthrown by CIA:

Once again, the CIA does not make these decisions, it carries out what they are told to do. Do you really believe that the President finds out some dictator was overthrown by seeing it on the news or do you think it was actually his decision in the first place?

CIA itself must go and another organization must take it's place with stricter oversight and lessons learned applied.

That's fine but the next agency will end up just the same. Its the nature of the covert business. You cannot be a good guy and deal with the bad guys at their level, you actually have to be nastier at times. And how are you going to increase oversight?

If you start having operatives afraid to do things because they will get in trouble then you know what? They aren't going to be doing anything without first making sure they won't be held accountable. How can you run an agency that deals with all sorts of the scum of the earth with people will not respond back?

Originally posted by PatriotGames2
What a bunch of ridiculousness...

Agreed.

Originally posted by PatriotGames2
As far as communism, the USSR was no fairy tale and they certainly needed to be defeated, but it looks like we became the monster we so wanted to destroy. Not only that, but you cannot be so naive, Communism and Capitalism are just more tools of the trade for the monied interests to wage war and make more money. They use it as an excuse. The CIA has even orchestrated the overthrow of leaders who were once thought to be great supporters of ours and allies against communism.

I'm fairly certain that part 1 of our defeat by coup took place in '63 with the murder of Kennedy.

We have video of Kennedy's Secret Service close-in detail being removed right before the attack. We have some interesting first-person testimony from various players including Oswald's lover. The government seized the body after it had been examined and the DoD autopsy does not agree with the attending physicians in Texas. The windshield of the Kennedy limo was replaced and the bullet-damaged one discarded. Kennedy's brain went missing after the autopsy ..... making independent analysis of bullet tracks impossible.

Who would have the power to remove Secret Service protection? Who would have the power to twist the results of a DoD autopsy? Who would have the power to discard evidence and cover up the investigation?

If I was betting on this race (assassination), I'd put a $1000 on DoD/CIA for the tragic deed accomplished.

reply to post by EricR


And who in the CIA would have the balls to pull it off and for what reason? Was there some political advantage for someone there to not have Kennedy in office? Unless you think Allen Dulles had resentment for being fired as the CIA director after the Bay of Pigs then I don't see who there would have anything to gain from his death.

However there is a possibility that someone in the Kennedy administration was involved. We know for a fact that Nixon's chief of staff Alexandar Haig informed the Joint Chiefs of Staff not to take any orders from Nixon because apparently Nixon's mental capacity was quickly eroding while Watergate was blowing up. So we do know that the President can be circumvented.

We simply do not know.

reply to post by Hopechest


Are you freakin nuts. Dulles was butt hurt but he didn't have the power to pull that off and then cover it up. No, the orders came from a higher authority

Kennedy inherited the start of the Bay of Pigs. He set conditions before he would provide air support for it as well as other conditions where he was promised that Cubans would greet the invaders with cheers. The conditions were never met. Kennedy did not provide air support. The CIA was so steeped in the operation that they actually had CIA people on the ground in Cuba involved in the invasion itself after they were explicitly forbidden to do so, as were they forbidden by their charter. Kennedy took any operation control away from the CIA and gave it to the Pentagon. He also fired Dulles and appointed McCone. They hated him from then until his death. If you don't think they were involved in his death, look up David Morales.

There's no question that the CIA has, throughout its history, conducted operations that would never pass the muster of public sanction, as well as conducting operations without the knowledge of their superiors.

Originally posted by GrantedBail
reply to post by Hopechest

 

Are you freakin nuts. Dulles was butt hurt but he didn't have the power to pull that off and then cover it up. No, the orders came from a higher authority

That was my point, it couldn't have been the CIA since they didn't have the power to make that call.

Is it possible they were the gunmen? Maybe but its more likely that whoever decided to do this would use shooters outside of the government circles. Hired marksmen or possibly KGB.

Though setting up Oswald would certainly be something the CIA is good at I just think it would be too risky to use them in any official capacity.

reply to post by Hopechest


Chickadee you are getting your timelines all twisted. You are talking about the Nixon presidency while trying to, crap, I don't know what the heck you are trying to do. But you are seriously messed up. The Nixon presidency somehow has some kind of significance with the JFK assassination.

Seriously, put down the pipe and back up real slow with your hands in the air.