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Is There a Fail-safe? A Way to Know If You're Wrong?

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posted on May, 11 2013 @ 03:34 PM
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reply to post by bb23108
 


We're all set now. Thanks.




posted on May, 11 2013 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by loveguy

After discussing an item with another being, (idea blossomed from a seed), one may or may not retain the same coin-stance, may also fall to being a hind-sight corroboration- where neither individual was right with their initial assessment.

We're all at the mercy of seedling development. Hind sight is the fruit of knowledge.


This is true, and it takes a lot to hold tight to what you've been able to verify at times. Some things are extremely dependent on the veracity of may other complicated determinations, with the whole of it coming together like a Rubik's Cube in the end. Sometimes, the totality is only discernible for a moment, even though the components are much more palpable, and it's only the fact of those components being determinable that keeps you connected to what you could - for only a moment - perceive as being the whole of the moon, versus the waxing and waning slips and slivers that have become widely celebrated as the most that anyone will ever know or can ever know.

It ends up being a very isolating achievement.



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 09:36 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
I am speaking of the ultimate seer - awareness. I am not talking about the observer function of mind - the mind appears in awareness. All arises in awareness.
I use the word consciousness as you use word awareness. Both consciousness and awareness are the same to me. Since I can use the word awareness as you do, I will go with that. However, if I also use the word consciousness, I mean the same as awareness.

I actually prefer the word consciousness because the word awareness is used more often when speaking in terms of the apparently individuated "human" awareness/consciousness. Regardless, I think we are on the same page now.

edit on 5/11/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2013 @ 09:49 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


Originally posted by Itisnowagain
Consciousness arises at the same instant that the light appears - on waking. Consciousness is the light that is present (the image). Prior to that awareness is alone - with no image appearing (deep sleep).
I liken it to:
In the beginning there was nothing (pure awareness with no things appearing). God said let there be light (eyes open and an image is seen - made of light). God saw the light and it was good.
Awareness is alone still but the light appears to divide the darkness (nothingness/awareness).
Okay, maybe we are not quite on the same page yet. Again, I use consciousness as you use awareness. You are using consciousness more in association with the waking state (as opposed to deep sleep).

Conscious Light or Unconditional Consciousness or Awareness is indivisible and is always the case, prior to all conditions. I do not look at there being some Creator-God making Light from Awareness, or Awareness creating Light. There is simply Conscious Indivisible Light that is Awareness, Love-Bliss-Energy or Unity - in which all conditions are arising and are simply modifications of this indivisible Light.

edit on 5/11/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 03:02 AM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
Objects appear in space. If there wasn't the space - where would the objects appear?


That "space" is a proximity set that exists within an objective reality confine. Where the object appears is a proximity point that exists as part of that proximity set. That observer shares that proximity set with that object, occupying a different proximity point than the object, or it would not be able to observe it as existing relative to itself. Regardless of what points are being occupied by the object and the observer that is observing the object, both exist within the objective reality confine that hosts that entire proximity set as the contextual environment that it is.


You think you are a thing among other things. This is the original sin (first mistake), which is, the human condition - divided from all that is. It doesn't feel good.
Find out the truth and you will feel much better.
The truth shall set you free.
edit on 12-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 03:59 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Find out the truth and you will feel much better.
The truth shall set you free.


Maybe this endeavour of the OP is the precise route by which he will "find the truth"?

While I do not agree with some of the concepts being presented, (and I have an even harder time trying to understand the convoluted phrases), I do appreciate the thoroughness and dedication to which he applies himself to the task. My own intellect would have given up long ago.



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 04:15 AM
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Originally posted by mysticnoon

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Find out the truth and you will feel much better.
The truth shall set you free.


Maybe this endeavour of the OP is the precise route by which he will "find the truth"?

While I do not agree with some of the concepts being presented, (and I have an even harder time trying to understand the convoluted phrases), I do appreciate the thoroughness and dedication to which he applies himself to the task. My own intellect would have given up long ago.

I gave this answer to the OP.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NorEaster
 


You will know by the fruit.
If life is happy and delightful and feels like heaven and not hell then you will know that it is right. The ultimate code has been cracked. It does not have to be sold to anyone else for it to work.
edit on 4-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)


If the poster of this thread finds peace with his theories then I would call it success. Unfortunately, his 'convoluted phrases' will never convince anyone (it just adds to the confusion), I suppose he knows what he is talking about and that is enough for him. I just wish he would use words and phrases that everyone knows and then it might make some sense.
I don't believe a 'theory' will ever reveal 'truth'.
edit on 12-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 04:44 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NorEaster
 


You will know by the fruit.
If life is happy and delightful and feels like heaven and not hell then you will know that it is right. The ultimate code has been cracked. It does not have to be sold to anyone else for it to work.
edit on 4-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)


Thanks, I did miss this reply.

All I would assume by a happy and delightful life is that it is the harvesting of good actions from the past along with a positive attitude and beneficial choices in the present. I fail to see how such a state infers that an "ultimate code" has been cracked.



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 04:48 AM
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Originally posted by mysticnoon

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NorEaster
 


You will know by the fruit.
If life is happy and delightful and feels like heaven and not hell then you will know that it is right. The ultimate code has been cracked. It does not have to be sold to anyone else for it to work.
edit on 4-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)


Thanks, I did miss this reply.

All I would assume by a happy and delightful life is that it is the harvesting of good actions from the past along with a positive attitude and beneficial choices in the present. I fail to see how such a state infers that an "ultimate code" has been cracked.


Realizing presence is all there is brings a peace (which is joyous) that surpasses all understanding.
edit on 12-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 04:58 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain


Realizing presence is all there is brings a peace (which is joyous) that surpasses all understanding.
edit on 12-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)


No doubt there is peace and joy in "realising presence", but how do you come to the conclusion this is the ultimate reality or truth?

How can you be certain that this is not just a more sophisticated illusion of mind?



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 04:59 AM
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Originally posted by mysticnoon

Originally posted by Itisnowagain


Realizing presence is all there is brings a peace (which is joyous) that surpasses all understanding.
edit on 12-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)


No doubt there is peace and joy in "realising presence", but how do you come to the conclusion this is the ultimate reality or truth?

How can you be certain that this is not just a more sophisticated illusion of mind?

As I have told you before - it is obvious.
Once seen (the obvious truth) it cannot be escaped - and it is found written.
edit on 12-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 05:08 AM
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reply to post by mysticnoon
 

Why do you not doubt there is peace and joy in "realising presence"?



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 05:17 AM
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Originally posted by mysticnoon

Originally posted by Itisnowagain


Realizing presence is all there is brings a peace (which is joyous) that surpasses all understanding.
edit on 12-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)


No doubt there is peace and joy in "realising presence", but how do you come to the conclusion this is the ultimate reality or truth?

If there is only presence - then what else is there?



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 05:45 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by mysticnoon
 

Why do you not doubt there is peace and joy in "realising presence"?


Experience? I think most have a glimpse of it here and there in their life, even without knowing what it is.

However, experience of bliss and peace does not necessarily correspond to Ultimate Reality.

As long as awareness is filtered through mind, the potential for delusion is always present. It is not until self goes beyond the realm of mind that it is free from illusion.

Like with the dream sequences I shared earlier in the thread, it was not until I woke from the dream that I realised I had been dreaming, that I had been deluded about the reality of the dream. While in the dream state, there was not a single indicator that it was only a dream, everything was the perfect reflection of normal waking consciousness.

In a similar way, a state of complete peace and happiness in presence may only be the reflection of a higher order of reality, but this is unknowable until we "wake" from that plane of awareness.


edit on 12-5-2013 by mysticnoon because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-5-2013 by mysticnoon because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 07:58 AM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 
To answer your thread's questions: The fail-safe is Reality Itself. The proof to knowing you have not realized Reality altogether is that you are still assuming point-of-view. If any point-of-view exists, or as you call it, the Survival Identity - you have not realized Reality, although you may enjoy great, large, and even very comprehensive insights that seemingly encompass the world itself.

When I speak of point-of-view, I am not just assuming some limited mental standpoint - but any apparently spatially-defined "location" in any given moment of time. Reality is beyond all points-of-view, and is the only Identity - it is the fail-safe because only Reality is Self-Evident. All else can be countered with an opposing point-of-view.

Your notion of Identity Survival is point-of-view by definition. Regardless of how "large" or how much that point-of-view encompasses, it is still a point-of-view, a limited Identity, and therefore cannot know the totality of the universe. Only Reality is this Perfect Knowing because Reality is One or Self-Identity, beyond all points-of-view or limited Identity. Reality is not driven by Survival Identity - Reality is already the case, prior to, but not separate from all existence.

Point-of-view or Survival Identity is seeking - it is the very definition of limitation because it displaces itself from the recognition of Reality. I understand that you infer in your model of existence that Reality is beyond all points-of-view, but your model appears to be based on point-of-view, defining and re-defining itself into larger and larger holon structures through seeking or Identity Survival.

This model has potentially great merit in the materialistic views of science - but it is limited in terms of a total Theory of Everything, because it is based on a progressively developing point-of-view Identity through seeking for union with larger structures.

This seeking is the very definition of illusion - looking for something (union) that is already the case in Reality. This understanding of the illusion of seeking is well-documented, particularly in the spiritual traditions of non-dualism.

As I have said before, your model is of real interest to me, especially if you are finding scientific support at the level of quanta for this seeking mechanism. However, seeking to be an Identity (or a larger and larger point-of-view) is what actually has to be transcended to realize Reality altogether.

Given your model does not recognize that all objects and beings are already unified with Reality from the beginning, your model is therefore based in more of an evolutionary approach, than a radical one of recognizing Reality from the very beginning.

That is, your model is based on an endlessly progressive development rather than a radical recognition of our true nature as Consciousness or Reality from the beginning. I understand you do not recognize such "primordial" (as you called it) notions of Consciousness, but only as a progressively developed structure - and for that very reason, your approach is limited and evolutionary.

Again, this is not to discount your theory, but it can never be the Theory of Everything (free of all points-of-view) because this progressively developing structure would be endless in its seeking, only at best achieving larger and larger Identity - and therefore is not 100% right, or altogether Reality Itself because Reality transcends even the largest possible structure.

I am sure you will counter my basic assumptions about your model, but based on what I have read and understood so far, this is how I see it. (I also understand, especially in reading your post that follows this one, that you are not actually trying to develop a Theory of Everything - but this inherent limitation is still worth noting.)

I also wanted to point out that in answer to your thread's questions, Reality is Self-Evident, and if this is absolutely obvious to the realizer, who is necessarily beyond ALL points-of-view (seeking) - then s/he is certain they are "right". Plus, this realization has obvious and recognizable signs.

edit on 5/12/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 07:59 AM
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Originally posted by mysticnoon

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by mysticnoon
 

Why do you not doubt there is peace and joy in "realising presence"?


Experience? I think most have a glimpse of it here and there in their life, even without knowing what it is.

However, experience of bliss and peace does not necessarily correspond to Ultimate Reality.

As long as awareness is filtered through mind, the potential for delusion is always present. It is not until self goes beyond the realm of mind that it is free from illusion.

Like with the dream sequences I shared earlier in the thread, it was not until I woke from the dream that I realised I had been dreaming, that I had been deluded about the reality of the dream. While in the dream state, there was not a single indicator that it was only a dream, everything was the perfect reflection of normal waking consciousness.

In a similar way, a state of complete peace and happiness in presence may only be the reflection of a higher order of reality, but this is unknowable until we "wake" from that plane of awareness.


edit on 12-5-2013 by mysticnoon because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-5-2013 by mysticnoon because: (no reason given)

Experience happens presently - nothing can happen outside of presence but what does presence consist of?
This moment of presence seems to consist of a seer and a scene (which is the image seen). It appears as if there is an observer (awareness) and the observed (scene) but the scene cannot appear without being seen. They are one - the one.
There is the moving, ever changing presence and there is the unchanging, never moving presence. The moving scene that is made of light is what is seen. The unchanging, ever present seer cannot be seen because it is seeing. Without the seeing (awareness) no thing can be seen - so the unchanging is the real - it is stable, it is the rock, it is salvation - the realization of this will save you from all that appears as mind.
When presence is found to be all - the space with arising's - it will be unknowable because who could know it?

Contraction of energy feels awful. Relaxation into boundlessness is being in love.


edit on 12-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by mysticnoon
As long as awareness is filtered through mind, the potential for delusion is always present. It is not until self goes beyond the realm of mind that it is free from illusion.

Because you have not risen above mind but are stuck in the mind, you will not understand that awareness is not filtered through the mind. Awareness is aware of mind. Mind is not aware of awareness - mind hasn't a clue what awareness is because it is outside of it's perception - in fact mind cannot see, all mind does is abstract and interpret - this abstracting and interpretation is seen to be happening (by awareness). The mind is not something separate - the mind is a story teller, telling stories - these stories convince the one of more than one. Oneness dreams of more so it can play the game of being human (individual).
Mind speaks and is heard by something - can you hear/know thought? - that which is hearing is awareness. The speaking thoughts are an appearance. The appearance is constantly changing - whereas awareness is constant and quiet and still (awareness does not speak).
When you recognize yourself as awareness there is a constant peace no matter what appears as the sound and fury of existence (inclusive of what the mind speaks).

edit on 12-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by mysticnoon

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by mysticnoon
 

Why do you not doubt there is peace and joy in "realising presence"?


Experience? I think most have a glimpse of it here and there in their life, even without knowing what it is.

However, experience of bliss and peace does not necessarily correspond to Ultimate Reality.

As long as awareness is filtered through mind, the potential for delusion is always present. It is not until self goes beyond the realm of mind that it is free from illusion.

Like with the dream sequences I shared earlier in the thread, it was not until I woke from the dream that I realised I had been dreaming, that I had been deluded about the reality of the dream. While in the dream state, there was not a single indicator that it was only a dream, everything was the perfect reflection of normal waking consciousness.

In a similar way, a state of complete peace and happiness in presence may only be the reflection of a higher order of reality, but this is unknowable until we "wake" from that plane of awareness.


edit on 12-5-2013 by mysticnoon because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-5-2013 by mysticnoon because: (no reason given)


To be honest, I'm not convinced that we can ever "wake" from that plane of awareness. I'd believe it to be true if subjective perception wasn't the basis of what we are as minds and selves. This is probably the most frustrating aspect of being human, but only if what we're driven to accomplish is full knowledge of all that exists, as opposed to a working knowledge of what bases the whole of existence.

I think that some people who read my stuff assume that I am suggesting that full knowledge of all that exists is possible for the human being, but that isn't what I'm suggesting. What I am suggesting is an accurate knowledge of the nature of physical existence and a full understanding of what bases it - what the sub-structure consists of. It's not a full knowledge of all that exists, but it's a priceless knowledge of what CAN'T exist, and that knowledge really is priceless once you've vacated the material realm and all objective reality anchors have been eliminated.

Part of my research involves straight up Metaphysics, and I'm now reading a book called The Last Frontier: Exploring the Afterlife and Transforming Our Fear of Death (Michael Raduga) that is a pretty comprehensive overview of traditional and nontraditional approaches to the experience of dying and emerging from that process, as well as methods of communicating with post-corporeal human beings. It's "soft science" but it's not faith-centric, and this sort of thing is central to what it means to be human, even if the hard sciences dismiss it. I study it because it helps me to better understand the impact of being stripped of objective reality anchors, and the positives and negatives associated with that unique level of individual awareness.

What we will each experience is what we've been programmed to allow as possible, and especially plausible, with that programming in ongoing development right now as we live on this material Earth as Homo Sapiens hominids. Cultural influences are the primary means by which we each will construct this suite of possible and plausible reality tenets, and it's through that which we accept as valid reality concepts that our afterlife is ultimately populated with furniture and accessories. The more specific our reality view is, the less open to perception manipulation we become, and while that does strengthen our protection against predation, if that specific reality view is improperly restrictive, then the threat becomes less of random predation than that of predatory grooming. Yes, it's inherently dangerous to be so wide open to subjective influence, even if the flip side is a freedom of potential experience that is unrivaled in all of existence.

Nothing is perfect and no guarantee exists (as in God or some other form of ultimate justice) to ensure eternal happiness for the human being, but knowing more about what's real goes a long way toward preventing the obvious threats from shutting down the wide open freedom that each of us is capable of enjoying once we've left this 2nd stage of developmental gestation.

We are an existential anomaly - an unlikely hybrid - and each of us is both vulnerable and invulnerable, with the difference depending on how we each decide to approach this critical phase of our development. The reality anchors only exist here in this material realm, and we can learn from them, or we can insist that they either don't exist or are a malevolent trap meant to cripple our "spiritual development". Some metaphysics insists that this realm is an illusion, but that embrace leads to manipulation vulnerability in the afterlife. Others insist on the existence of a supreme authority (with ever-present hierarchical representatives in most versions) that will only become apparent once the material realm has been cleared away, and the threat there should be obvious.

I'm trying to offer an alternative to both that is rigidly based on what can definitely be determined to be factual and accurate about the objective reality anchors that we have here in this material realm. And the truth is that regardless of what is preached, there's a lot that can be determined to be factual and accurate that can teach us how to remain free and unrestricted once we've left this realm. Freedom from all threats in the afterlife is what I'm focused on, and it's as simple as that. Personal autonomy and the knowledge to avoid all the potential predatory schemes that exist within anywhere where authentic freedom reigns.
edit on 5/12/2013 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by NorEaster
I study it because it helps me to better understand the impact of being stripped of objective reality anchors, and the positives and negatives associated with that unique level of individual awareness.

Each night you are stripped of all objective reality anchors. In deep sleep there is nothing to be aware of - and on waking there is some 'thing' to be aware of.
edit on 12-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2013 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by NorEaster
I study it because it helps me to better understand the impact of being stripped of objective reality anchors, and the positives and negatives associated with that unique level of individual awareness.

Each night you are stripped of all objective reality anchors. In deep sleep there is nothing to be aware of.


Objective means that your awareness of what is objective has no impact on that objective thing's ongoing existence.



  • not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
  • intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book.
  • being the object of perception or thought; belonging to the object of thought rather than to the thinking subject ( opposed to subjective ).
  • of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.




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