Another Insight Into Depression: When The Darkness Comes

It might not work for you, or maybe you have already tried something like this. But listening to this guy and practising meditation as a result, have helped me alot.. so maybe it's worth a try:

www.youtube.com...

In any case, I hope you all manage to find some peace of mind!

Heff, once again you nailed it.

I suffer from major depression, PTSD, and anxiety. It's a battle I've fought now for almost twenty years.

The depression NEVER STOPS. I do have periods of happiness, of peace, but those are the exceptions. The depression is either bad, very bad, or unbearable.

There are so many people with good intentions who simply don't understand. They believe I can just "get over it," but that's not how it works. Believe me, I've tried.

I understand about the meds, too. I've gone through my share as well. Now I'm titrating off of Seroquel and it's not easy. My doc gave it to me to try and calm my racing thoughts that were keeping me up at night. It worked, but the side effects are worse than the insomnia.

Heff, you amaze me. Your strength, your compassion, your intelligence.....I truly admire you. I wish there were more that I could say, or do....but know you are not alone.

Hugs to you, my friend.

smylee

reply to post by smyleegrl


Hi smylee!

Seroquel was one of the medications that caused me major problems. It caused me to gain about 35 pounds in less than two months. But the thing that really drove me insane was that it made my legs hypersensitive. Just laying under a simple bed caused me to feel as if there was extreme pressure on my legs. It was like being constricted and I could not sleep because of it. It was a kind of torture. As long as I was upright, I managed fairly well. But the second I laid down the neurological effects would kick in and make life unbearable.

Thus, I truly can empathize and relate to what you're going through.

I wish I could recall how long it took for all of the effects to taper off... but it's been a few years and I cannot recall exactly how long it took for things to go back to the usual.

In my case I found a tolerable compromise with an SSNRI called Trazodone. It makes me feel awful, but that feeling is short lived and somewhat tolerable. I take it at bedtime and going to sleep allows me to skate past the hour or two of side effects. By the time I wake in the morning, the bad is all gone and the positive benefits are noticeable.

My downfall, currently, is that I let family talk me into going off of my meds about three months ago. They got caught up in a mind set of believing that meds were a luxury and that $17.00 a month was a HUGE waste for no benefit. Ultimately I caved in and said "Fine. I'll try it without medication..." and, well, this capitulation ( mostly out of spite as a means of proving to them that the meds are NOT a luxury ) proved to be a pretty profound set-back in my recovery.

Funny thing about people who make these kinds of demands... one that I've seen time and time again - in my own life and otherwise... people are all sorts of assertive and involved when they have a strong opinion. But once their advice is followed and problems arise? They disappear pretty darned fast.

reply to post by Hefficide


You're lucky you quit taking those meds. Meds that suppress the P450 enzymes often cause the liver to slow and cause a buildup of toxins in the body. These toxins destroy the mitochondria of the cells in the body after the protective layer is used up. This leads to less and less energy over time. This also leads to weight gain because excess toxins get stored in fat cells because the liver cannot detox them. Here's an article explaining that problem. psychrights.org...

If you read the article it tells of NAC, a supplement or medicine that helps to protect the liver from toxins. It is also a neuromodulator. NAC is found in raw meats but if the temp goes over about a hundred twenty degrees it falls apart. If we cook our meats with some onion and garlic plus add a little of some food containing nicotinic acid in it, basically adding a few drops of tobasco sauce, the chemical NAC forms in the soup itself. The disulfide bond is what breaks when meat is cooked, if way overcooked the nitrogen falls off. Raw broccoli also contains NAC but there are a lot of problems with eating raw broccoli as it is a goitinerogen because the Isotheocyanate attaches tightly to the site that iodine should be attaching to. Isotheocyanate is also found in mustard, that is how it can stop muscle cramping but mustard doesn't have all the other problems that raw broccoli has.

It seems to me that if NAC is a neuromodulator and is good to control excessive stray voltage in the brain, such as in epilepsy, it could be used to treate a lot of things.....cheaply. In todays world they say cook your meat well So we don't get this chemical. Homeade chicken or beef soup can have this chemical if done right. Restricting unnatural free glutamates is a must as is restricting aspertaimes. A little is alright but these things are in everything. Natural occurring tyramines (bound glutamates) are better. These are slow acting modulators of happiness. Free glutamates act fast and then we quickly crash. Bound glutamates keep us satisfied and social for hours. Aged or fermented foods make these chemicals. There are charts on the net showing how much bound and free glutamates natural foods have. They are not evil, they regulate our happiness.

NAC is used for liver poisoning in the hospital. Silimaron, found in milk thistle or basicly any thistle in smaller amounts, is another chemical used for protecting the liver. I don't know if Silimaron regulates brain chemistry but I know women at the coop who use it and they are nice and mellow.

There are a lot of natural things that treat diseases in this world. Diseases often are caused by diet, eating what we shouldn't eat or preparing it wrong. We learned to neglect what our ancestors told us, instead following the conditioning taught to us by the medical and Pharma industries, industries that profit by us being sick. There are a lot of good doctors but there are also many that desire their coworkers to stay employed. Most doctors also have high expenses so that makes many of them turn a blind eye to helping us quickly. It makes our health insurances go up also, unneeded tests and expensive meds being prescribed to support the many people working in the industry. Most doctors aren't greedy, it is quite the opposite, they are too friendly with their coworkers. They have to supply a living to many people.

So, I can't even tell one other person what to eat, only advise them to open their mind and give them a little help as to what to try. These changes aren't immediate most times but sometimes a mineral or vitamin or herb can be taken and instant relief can be felt. Some Glutamines also help you heal, don't get those mixed up with glutamates. I am different than others, my personality is different and changing as I study and experiment on myself trying to find how to possibly help others. You probably wouldn't even want to be exactly like me and I would not want to be exactly like you. This difference in people makes the world interesting. I wouldn't want a million of me walking around, I like meeting people with fresh perspectives.

reply to post by Hefficide


the world is twisted heff., from the inside out and from the top to bottom, and if you are
not suffering mentally and almost constantly out of sorts, then there is indeed something
seriouly wrong with you.

you care, my friend. you have passion and compassion.
and there is a heavy price to pay for that in this world.

''those who suffer most must mourn the deepest
over the fatal truth.
the tree of knowledge is not that of life.''

but all is never lost.

never.

reply to post by Hefficide


I strongly agree and, on behalf of anyone who has ever suffered through depression and was greatly misunderstood and wrestled with bad 'help" through it all, I thank you for saying it. I love it when the truth is said, and on top of which, it is said in such a clear and lucid manner as this post. This is the kind of value that I would also like to bring to ATS.

Originally posted by Hefficide

Medication is actually one of the "Uncle Bob" type issues that can really cause damage to sick people. Everyone has an opinion about the medications. Even informed opinions, however, can be damaging as the process of getting a person onto psychiatric medications ( if done correctly at least ) can involve a lot of talking, testing, and trial and error.

I agree with you again. I've suffered from PTSD for the past 10 years. I feel as though the last 10 years have been stolen from me and only now can I begin to go to parties and live a normal life again. I was forced to take medication when my stress was literally crippling me, but all it could do was to take the edge off. Meanwhile these pills often made me very drowsy, to the point where I had an awful memory and was not very bright to put it mildly. I eventually found a pill which was helpful for both stress and depression and had no apparent side effects, but when I suddenly went off it cold turkey (which is in retrospect an obvious error in judgment) I was suddenly overcome with a powerful urge to commit suicide. I struggled through this, getting back onto the drug and then weaning my way off it. I am currently on Valium, but I am only taking one pill a day instead of the recommended two pills. I will eventually wean my way off this and be done with medication all together. Many of these pills are addictive (chemically as well as psychologically,) and this does become a problem of its own.

Medication has in no way cured me of my PTSD. I have been curing myself, by fighting through it every single day for the past decade: meditating, easing my breath (when possible,) forcing myself to think positively instead of dwelling on the negative, eating well, exercising, sleeping well, etc. I have read a number of highly recommended books, even the most insightful of which offered only a little insight. I saw a psychologist who was supposed to be an "expert" in stress, and yet he told me the only thing I could do was to relax my breathing! How is one supposed to do this while working at a coffee shop or a factory? In short, I never found any one or few answers. It was me, my will that has been overcoming it. The pills merely helped and in some ways became a problem of their own.

Heff, you have always been such an inspiration in courage and strength. You have always shared with us in honesty and truth in which we all love you for.

I have anxiety and depression and can't seem to tolerate meds for depression for one reason or another. Whenever such a topic such as this comes up, it seems there are many of us struggling through.

Thank you for sharing!

Thank you for your post Heff. I find this to be very true. Fortunately, my husband and kids are very supportive of any decisions I decide to make in regards to my depression and ptsd. I can't say the same is true of extended family outside my nucleus. I get the "it's all in your head" and "your just feeling sorry for yourself and need to get over it and move on." speeches.

I don't know how to flip the switch back - but I've learned the hard way - that's what most people expect. Right now I'm med free and feeling much better body health wise. My diabetes is under control now without insulin. My thyroid righted itself when I threw away my meds. But the depression, anxiety, and ptsd is still there. It's not any more or less. Just the same. There. The VA's health plan for women that are a victim of mst is atrocious and lacking. The have NO cognitive behavioral therapy in place for women. There are no support groups for women in the VA - as the client base doesn't warrant the cost to create them. They seem to be unwilling to outsource me to a civilian clinic that specializes in rape trauma - so it's a struggle just seeking help.

They have stated "Medication is really the only viable treatment we can offer you at this time, and a therapist to talk to." Mind you the therapist just listens. She doesn't give me any exercises, or strategies to try and work with - just lends an ear. I'm at a loss as to where to go or what to do next. The doctors want to try a new medication. That's their answer. I'm so sick of that answer because so far, it hasn't been the answer for me. It always leads to another health complication creeping up in the "side effect" with more medications being prescribed to counter the "side effects". That in itself depresses me. I won't take it anymore.

Cirque

reply to post by CirqueDeTruth


Cirque,

Do you have access to any local PTSD groups? I did much, much better when my local clinic had these ( They've been cut now - along with almost all social services it seems )... But being able to talk was just one positive that came from group. Another benefit of it was being able to compare notes with others who have similar issues. Doctors put me through self-hypnosis, biofeedback, and a plethora of other things... but many of the coping tools I currently have came from others sharing their trial and error stories. We're all unique and different things work for different people - but in my experience I could take the techniques that others used and personalize them. An example is that one friend told me he'd watch comedy DVD's when he had severe panic attacks and it would help him get past the worst of the attack. Comedies don't work for me, but science fiction does.

Group is really a positive thing.

reply to post by Hefficide


Ah, scifi, LOVE it! Nothing like being able to escape into worlds unknown. Great diversion!!

reply to post by Night Star


Night star,

I had no idea you are going through such tough times. Your posts are always so encouraging, it's obvious you have a very loving nature. If you ever want to get together and have a good cry, let me know.

Cirque, you too are in my thoughts. I love your level headed calmness. It's good to know you've got a great support group.

Heff...maybe you should set up a group counseling thing and make some $$$. You've got better advice than any of the therapists I've been too.

Love to you all,

smylee

I feel that even folks in this thread do not understand ... saying things like your diet or exercise or a vitamin or meditation will magically FIX YOU is exactly the type of BS that the OP is talking about being depressed and HAVING depression are 2 completely different things or having some anxiety in a situation versus suffering from anxiety or panic attacks. Sure those are all great things that everyone should do but alluding to the fact that Billy would not hear voices or Jamie would not have killed herself if only she exercised more or ate more vitamin C is just total BS.

reply to post by Hefficide


RESPECT

reply to post by Hefficide


You write so freakin well, Heff. To the point where I don't want to disagree with you, but this time I at least have to offer what I have seen in the depressed people in my family.

My mother was bi-polar, and spent two years in a mental institution because of it. The memories of my mother throughout my childhood was of her laying on the couch, either watching TV or sleeping.

My brother suffered from a depression that slowly removed him from participating in life. For the last ten years of his life all he did was sit on the couch and chain smoke while watching TV.

Now, can we agree that depression comes in bouts? That people are not ALWAYS in a depressed mood? I understand that depression comes when the chemicals responsible for it overload the brain, causing people to spiral down into a deep dark place.

But then the chemicals recede and the depression lifts, only, there is another problem that humans have to contend with: It is our tendency to fall into habits. In my family's case, the habit derived from depression is to stay in the sedentary rut. It becomes a lifestyle. My mother and brother may have had times where they felt good, but they stayed on the couch because it became a learned behavior.

At one point I noticed that my brother was watching a lot of golf on TV. I mentioned that we should try actually playing golf, assuring him that if he wasn't up to it we could stop anytime he wanted. This was a summer of golf. I got his two sons to come along with us. It was probably the best summer of my brother's life. Near the end of that summer my brother wanted to play less and less, until he stopped altogether and found his couch again.

A few years later, the lottery game of keno was introduced into the local restaurants in my area. I got my brother interested and we started going everyday. We got to know the other regulars at the restaurant and we sat in a separate area with them. Jokes flew, the laughter was non-stop. My brother loved it so much that this particular restaurant became like a second home to him for a good year. Then, well, you know how the story goes.

So, what I'm asking you is, Should I NOT have inspired my brother to do these things?

reply to post by jiggerj

It's a complex illness for sure.

Thing is, I laugh, joke, smile and have the nickname "Smiler" at work, The managers have said, jokingly, that there is something wrong with me because I always seem to be smiling...

Truth is, I'm depressed as hell, with suicidal thoughts going through my head almost daily.

What people display on the outside isn't always what is going on inside.

Originally posted by Mister_Bit
reply to post by jiggerj

 

It's a complex illness for sure.

Thing is, I laugh, joke, smile and have the nickname "Smiler" at work, The managers have said, jokingly, that there is something wrong with me because I always seem to be smiling...

Truth is, I'm depressed as hell, with suicidal thoughts going through my head almost daily.

What people display on the outside isn't always what is going on inside.

No argument here that it's a complex illness. What I'm getting from the OP is that loved ones shouldn't encourage, inspire, or motivate those suffering from depression. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I like to think that I gave my brother a few breaks from his depression, and some good memories that he would never have if not for me. I LOVED my brother. I feel good about what I did for him. And, Heff is suggesting that it was wrong, that I was an unwanted intrusion into my brother's depression. I just don't think so.

reply to post by jiggerj

I can only speak from what I understood of the OP's post but I think he meant the "snap out of it" brigade rather than those with good intentions like yourself.

What you did for your brother was a great thing and motivated by love, but however much fun one can have, it will sadly not cure the depression or even help, it's a pleasant diversion for a short time.

The only real people that can cure the depression are the sufferers themselves. I think what Heff is getting at is that patience and understanding are far better help in the long term.

Keep those little times of joy coming though, it's all good

Originally posted by Mister_Bit
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I can only speak from what I understood of the OP's post but I think he meant the "snap out of it" brigade rather than those with good intentions like yourself.

What you did for your brother was a great thing and motivated by love, but however much fun one can have, it will sadly not cure the depression or even help, it's a pleasant diversion for a short time.

The only real people that can cure the depression are the sufferers themselves. I think what Heff is getting at is that patience and understanding are far better help in the long term.

Keep those little times of joy coming though, it's all good

Well, he did write this first:

In my real life experiences I have learned that even well intentioned "normal" people will most often make things far worse as they engage in their attempts at making things better.

I believe I did make things better for my brother, if only for a short time. But then Heff wrote this:

Our culture teaches us that punishment and shaming will alter behavior. So most tend to choose this approach when dealing with mental illness.

I can see how this would be more debilitating.

reply to post by jiggerj


Yeah, I see what you're saying..

I don't want to speak for Heff, or assume anything, but I think there is a difference between well intentioned "good" actions and well intentioned "bad" actions.

Taking your brother's mind off things with fun activities is a good example of a well intentioned "good" action.

A good example of a well intentioned "bad" action would be to tell someone to stop taking their medication, or telling them they are useless, pull yourself together... A well intentioned idea to spark a fire but more often than not would have the reverse affect.

When I went to counselling, the woman there used the expression "Why can't you go out in public, you're a big enough lad..." The good intention of hurting my pride I suppose and starting an anger inside to push me to beat the depression, only it had the opposite affect and made me feel worse. I stopped seeing her after that.