Honesty

I really loved your OP NarcolepticBuddha!

It's not the first time I notice your wisdom so I'm totally adding you to my friend's list.

Originally posted by theMediator
I really loved your OP NarcolepticBuddha!

It's not the first time I notice your wisdom so I'm totally adding you to my friend's list.

You're very gracious. I wouldn't call it wisdom so much as the ramblings of a confused man who has WAY too much time to think about these useless things.

I would be honored to be on your bud list

reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha

I have always felt the same as you, and that if everyone were honest there could be no war no problems of hardly any kind. I used to be trusting as you are but I trust no one or nothing anymore. I am so open and straightly honest with everyone, I have had to remove myself from everyone almost because no one can stand that and I can't change it.

reply to post by charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
It so often happens that I get baffled by the twists and turns within threads.

We only are dishonest when we separate ourselves from our essential unity with others.

This is not a criticism of that particular post. No doubt there is a profound truth in there somewhere. But would you rather tell that to a six year-old, or "Lying is when you tell somebody something that you know isn't true, and you want to make them think it is true?"

"What's "True" daddy?" "When you say of something that is, that it is, that's telling the truth."

When I wrote about the principle of unity or love being the basis for honesty, I was speaking to someone who would understand the difference between recognition of an esoteric matter (inherent unity) and the result of living on that non-separative basis - which is a life of morality, honesty, feeling-intelligence, etc. In other words, to be truly honest, discover the root of our being, which is love of the Divine and love for/unity with one's "neighbor".

A six year-old child would likely not understand the subtle nature of this argument, though they would likely understand that when you feel love for others, you naturally will tell them the truth. Rather than trying to teach a child endless good qualities, teach them love or non-separation from others - mainly through your own example of feeling-relatedness. Children can understand the difference between relating rightly to another and not relating rightly to another.

Of course, children need to be taught the literal difference between lying and telling the truth, but also the difference in one's feeling that lying and truthfulness are an expression of.

Around the age of 6 a child is entering more the emotional-feeling development of the being, relating to others, etc. - whereas the mental development should be emphasized later on. It is also important that children have a very healthy diet given their bodies are undergoing so much change.

People tend to rush the mental development of children, but a good foundation in both the physical aspects (via diet, exercise, etc.) and the emotional/relational aspects are very necessary prior to becoming teens. Especially the first 6-7 years, food is most important; then emotions, feelings, relatedness for the next 6-7 years. After that, the mental dimension of the being is emphasized. Of course, learning occurs throughout all these years, but only emphasizing mental knowledge from a very early age may exclude proper emotional/feeling and even physical development.

I realize I got carried away here, Charles... Anyway, thanks for your question.

reply to post by bb23108

Dear bb23108,

A six year-old child would likely not understand the subtle nature of this argument, though they would likely understand that when you feel love for others, you naturally will tell them the truth. Rather than trying to teach a child endless good qualities, teach them love or non-separation from others - mainly through your own example of feeling-relatedness. Children can understand the difference between relating rightly to another and not relating rightly to another.

I really like that, and it seems to be an excellent general rule, well done.

It's at the edges, where all rules show any problems that might exist. I'm sure you can think of many tough cases. Oh, I don't know, try this. A person comes to your door, says that your friend is wanted for some crime which you know about. The person asks if she is in the Holiday Inn across town. Well she is, and while you're thinking about it, the guy drags your father to the door and threatens him with severe injury or death if you don't tell the truth. What's the choice?

If that's too easy, the general question is how much suffering, among how many people, needs to be threatened until you lie to protect your friend?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952
You can mentalize endless scenarios that create some kind of moral conundrum, but what you do in real life can only be determined when it is encountered. It's hard for me to respond to hypothetical situations, Charles. Like I said before, honesty is being straight with someone, taking into account the whole situation, which only real heart-based feeling-intelligence can truly do. This may even imply a misdirect or an outright lie, to avoid violence. I don't hold honesty on some idealistic pedestal - you just need to do what is right for all concerned.

reply to post by bb23108

Dear bb23108,

Thank you for your patience with me. But you're missing my point entirely.

I don't hold honesty on some idealistic pedestal

But you should. You have to for honesty to be meaningful at all.

If honesty is determined by each individual in each situation according to the standard of what would be best for everybody, then there is no standard at all. First, we never have enough information to know what is best for everyone involved, sometimes we don't even know what is best for ourselves. Second, we can't accurately compare the benefits. We can't say "If I lie, then person A gets 50 benefits, Person B loses 10. But if I tell the truth then Persons A and B both lose 5."

And, to be honest, we are subject to temptations and personal biases. If there is an adult child in the house who uses drugs, is it to his benefit to kick him out, or keep him at home? Our biases will come out there. And when we apply it to ourselves, we will tend to give ourselves the benefit of the doubt when using such a standard. What we need as weak humans is a firm standard we can lean on when the temptation gets tough.

Walking down the sidewalk outside of a store, I come upon an envelope with $500, and no ID of any kind. Do I keep it to buy food for my several children? Do I turn it in to the store, or the police? If the standard is "do what is best for everybody," I take it home to benefit my many children with food. If there is a firm "Don't take anything that doesn't belong to you," I drop it off at the lost and found without worrying about measuring the benefits that each of the players might receive.

And please don't minimize the value of "mentalize endless scenarios." That's how people train. They imagine pitfalls and how to overcome them. Teachers ask "How do I deal with it, if my entire class starts shouting?" Soldiers ask "What do I do if radio contact is broken?" That kind of "mentalizing" is extraordinarily helpful.

While this might be repetitious,

Like I said before, honesty is being straight with someone, taking into account the whole situation

is impossible, because we can never even know the whole situation. We can never be sure we're even considering the important aspects of it.

If honesty is another form of love, and you say that lying may be necessary to avoid violence, then you announce to the world that peace and physical safety is the higher goal. I think few people would agree with you.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by bb23108


A six year-old child would likely not understand the subtle nature of this argument, though they would likely understand that when you feel love for others, you naturally will tell them the truth. Rather than trying to teach a child endless good qualities, teach them love or non-separation from others - mainly through your own example of feeling-relatedness. Children can understand the difference between relating rightly to another and not relating rightly to another.

Of course, children need to be taught the literal difference between lying and telling the truth, but also the difference in one's feeling that lying and truthfulness are an expression of.

I liked your post, and foudn a lot that I relate to there. I kind of had different thoughts on this part though.

For one, I feel that a child loves at that age, and because of that, will feel and do whatever brings happiness to the person- including lying. If mommy or daddy becomess joyous when a specific thing is said, and becomes gloom when a specific thing is said, they WILL say the thing that stimulates the positive feeling, whether it is true or a lie!

Part of that is due to the emotional empathy- they will seek the positive feelings in those they love just as they seek their own, because the separation is not clear, emotionally.

Even if the person pretends to be feeling otherwise , the child will feel the emotional state and adjust accordingly.

In this way, a child can be conditioned to tell certain lies, or twist things regularly, pretty early in life.

I don't think that honesty is always a reliable determining factor of love. Many a husband has told his wife her butt does not look big precisely because he loves her, he feels her emotions and has no wish to cause her emotional distress!

Originally posted by Char-Lee
reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha

 

I have always felt the same as you, and that if everyone were honest there could be no war no problems of hardly any kind.

An is an interesting thought experiment, if we were all 100% honest...

It would be interesting if we all could all read each others minds. Although, I think I would be horribly embarrassed sometimes but I think it would benefit the "good" far more than those who seek power and control over others.

Originally posted by upsidedownforklift

Originally posted by Char-Lee
reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha

 

I have always felt the same as you, and that if everyone were honest there could be no war no problems of hardly any kind.

An is an interesting thought experiment, if we were all 100% honest...

It would be interesting if we all could all read each others minds. Although, I think I would be horribly embarrassed sometimes but I think it would benefit the "good" far more than those who seek power and control over others.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if there were no need for courts or trials. You ask and if they are guilty they have to say so. if you ask how it happened they will tell you the whole thing. Couples could not cheat on each other without a prior agreement, kids could not use drugs or have sex without knowing the parents will ask.

Best of all when heads of countries speak they could know exactly what each other is real after...Ah yes, we want control of your oil, we are willing to kill to get it."

reply to post by charles1952

Walking down the sidewalk outside of a store, I come upon an envelope with $500, and no ID of any kind. Do I keep it to buy food for my several children? Do I turn it in to the store, or the police? If the standard is "do what is best for everybody," I take it home to benefit my many children with food. If there is a firm "Don't take anything that doesn't belong to you," I drop it off at the lost and found without worrying about measuring the benefits that each of the players might receive.

I would worry that if I turned the money into either the store or the police someone there would just keep it.
I would operate on the premiss that I may be keeping money for food that was to pay the rent for another Family with children. I would put an add out saying something was found and where and please call and identify.


I have found that honesty in this world today simply is not respected and is often a hindrance to people. Maybe I am as I am because I had a parent who lied so much we never knew what was true, but my own children are angry because I did not let them believe in Santa (told them Mom and dad are buying gifts) no tooth fairy, I bought the tooth from them according to size of tooth and age.

I don't tell everyone everything but if anyone asks me something they will hear the truth...very unpopular... I never told a lie to my children, and yet their Father my Ex who spent all his life lying and cheating both myself and in business, is able to convince them of things about me that are total lies...so it does not make you believed or believable that you don't lie to people. People believe a lie easier then the truth I often find.

reply to post by Bluesma

At this point in time I find the most important thing is that I am honest with myself- I do not need to tell everyone else everything. Some things I am being honest with myself about, others just don't care and don't want to hear!

No need to tell anyone everything to be honest.
I feel the need to answer a direct question as honestly as i can. There is truth that you can only be as honest as you can, since you may not see something clearly or have a distorted view or not enough information.

reply to post by charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
Thank you for your patience with me. But you're missing my point entirely.

Originally posted by charles1952
But you should ("hold honesty on some idealistic pedestal"). You have to for honesty to be meaningful at all.

Your post describes exactly why honesty cannot become some form of ideal to be sought - because of everyone's different takes on what honesty actually is. Fullest honesty is the result of our recognizing our essential unity (love) with all - and as such, honesty is a gift from the Divine.

In other words, when this unity is recognized, felt, and lived, then our connectedness with all is understood to be the case and provides the necessary basis for all morality, honesty, tolerance, human kindness, cooperation, etc.

To not recognize this unity is to deny our essential nature - and results in us living as separate, selfish, even dishonest people. Love or non-separation from God and all (unity) is what all the great spiritual realizers have taught, and Jesus clearly taught this same principle with his commandments of love. The truth of this can be recognized in any given moment, because it is always the case.

Originally posted by charles1952
And please don't minimize the value of "mentalize endless scenarios." That's how people train.

This is true in terms of gaining conventional knowledge and expertise - but love or non-separation or unity is given as a free gift from Reality or God - it is inherent, already the case, and this needs to be recognized, felt, and lived, even moment to moment.

Originally posted by charles1952
While this might be repetitious,

Like I said before, honesty is being straight with someone, taking into account the whole situation

is impossible, because we can never even know the whole situation. We can never be sure we're even considering the important aspects of it.

If you always recognize your connectedness to others and express that in feeling and action, you are in a much better position to feel altogether what is best for yourself and others. This is certainly to be combined with one's mental faculties, but it is not simply a matter of figuring it all out with the head. Heart-feeling-intelligence founded in unity is fundamental.

Recognizing this unity is a real, moment to moment practice of surrender to Reality or God, and recognizing our inherent connectedness. Otherwise, it is just the mind, often abstracted from feeling, trying to make sense out of all the scenarios.

Love or unity can be inherently felt by oneself and others, as can honesty be felt by others in someone living non-separately - because there is inherent trust in such a one. People do heart-recognize love/connectedness.

Originally posted by charles1952
If honesty is another form of love, and you say that lying may be necessary to avoid violence, then you announce to the world that peace and physical safety is the higher goal. I think few people would agree with you.

I made that remark on the basis of one of your scenarios. I would lie if it were absolutely necessary to keep someone from killing say, my daughter. I am pointing out with an extreme example of why honesty cannot be made a goal to be achieved - it is simply the result of always living in unity with Reality and all of life. To live otherwise is unlove, separative, and untrue of our actual nature, even false and dishonest.

I always enjoy your posts, Bluesma - they are insightful and also full of common sense. This one is no exception.

Originally posted by Bluesma
For one, I feel that a child loves at that age, and because of that, will feel and do whatever brings happiness to the person- including lying. If mommy or daddy becomess joyous when a specific thing is said, and becomes gloom when a specific thing is said, they WILL say the thing that stimulates the positive feeling, whether it is true or a lie!

True enough - you are describing learning by classic behavioral conditioning.

My wife and I found it best to always stay connected with the child, to show her the value of relationship. If she persisted in not being relational (by being mean or whatever), we would make her spend time apart from others until she realized that she preferred being in relationship. And then perhaps she would be required to serve the one she offended, etc. But regardless, we always made it clear to her that our connectedness (love) was felt and valued - and also was our "motive" for giving her a consequence she did not like. We never beat her because this tends to make a child justify their withdrawal from relationship, feeling, and even physically dissociate from the body due to the pain inflicted.

Children and adults inherently value relationship the most - because ultimately, relationship is unity or non-separative love.

Originally posted by Bluesma
Many a husband has told his wife her butt does not look big precisely because he loves her, he feels her emotions and has no wish to cause her emotional distress!

LOL! Now that is justified 'dishonesty"!
Or perhaps he doesn't want to wait any longer for another outfit to be squeezed into? Or values his life? Or even likes big butts? Roundness can be very beautiful! I plead the 5th!

Or maybe he should tell her because being overweight could be very unhealthy for her? Of course, she would already understand this, so perhaps he just silently helps her by example, living based on a more healthy diet, exercise, etc.? Lots of possibilities here - but staying in relationship with her is key.

Originally posted by NarcolepticBuddha
reply to post by GrantedBail

 

My apologies. I wasn't aware that someone made you expert of the philosophy forum. How dare I share my thoughts when it contradicts your opinions? Shame on me

haha great response.

I think few are honest really - it is a slight on the human condition .. and it keeps us in in the shadows as a people, hiding in turmoil and darkness

even in simple matters such as

'' how are you today''

we are all expected to say

' fine thank you and how are you'

If we actually even politely answered questions honestly and with candour, we would soon lose our jobs, be called [ labelled] outspoken, rebellious or my personal favourite a ' loose cannon '

What most people say, IMO has very little in common with what they are actually thinking or feeling ..

Very interesting OP. Thank you.

When my grandmother was in the hospital, there was an old, obviously disoriented lady in her room, who kept asking for her mom to bring her cookies. The nurse told her its useless, because she died long ago, and the lady started crying. It was very touching, i will never forget it.
There are a few situations, where the truth cause unnecessary pain, and telling the truth is actually wrong.

reply to post by charles1952


Thanks for presenting different scenarios in which our honesty may be tested. When it comes to examples like "Where are you hiding your family, we're going to kill them," I think people have the right to remain silent. There is no greater good in allowing harm to come to others.

You mentioned finding a cash-filled envelope. Well, you could probably find some really good ways to use that cash that would benefit people. (In your example, there's no way of ID'ing it,) so yeah, what can you do? I never take things to Lost & Founds or Police. I've seen stuff get picked through and stolen. What if the owner was a criminal, drug user, or thug? Would you return it to that person? I probably would because it's not my place to judge; I'd want my money returned to me.

For me, honesty is not a matter of "needs of the many." That rationale can always be used to do injustice.

Yes, truth is hard to define. But honesty isn't. We know when we do something we agree or don't agree with. If I saw someone drop that envelope of cash but needed to feed my kids, I'd know I'm taking money that doesn't belong to me for a "greater good." So, now I have a choice: Do I perform the greater good and feed my kids while aware that this money doesn't belong to me, other than by a whim of opportunity? Or do I do the honest thing and return it? I would return it. I'm sure a lot of people would call me pathetic and irresponsible for returning the money and letting the kids go hungry. (On that same note, I don't condone criminal acts or robbery to feed children. I wouldn't be able to eat knowing someone was stealing it for me either. That's my ideal; it may be incongruous with reality. It's a situation I'm lucky to never have faced.)

No, honesty is not always about doing what's good for everybody. "Do I look fat in these jeans?" You can be honest, but tactful. Or you can be dishonest with a perceived notion of "white lie that's good for everybody."

What I value and respect, is honesty taking a precedent to "common good." Lies can also serve the "common good." Honesty serves the conscience, whiles lies cannot.

(Hope I'm making sense.)

Anyway, thanks for posting your contributions and keeping the thread interesting by the way...do I rightly remember from another post that you're a lawyer?

Originally posted by upsidedownforklift
It would be interesting if we all could all read each others minds. Although, I think I would be horribly embarrassed sometimes but I think it would benefit the "good" far more than those who seek power and control over others.

Well, reading someone's personal thoughts is kind of irrelevant. If we're talking about thought experiments..we can just change the rules.

What if we could just know when someone tells the truth say, 50% of the time, or 10% of the time, or 99% of the time etc. Or on a case-by-case basis, what if we could tell when someone is being dishonest?

Who knows, maybe polygraph (lie-detectors) will be infallible someday--but still, that's only used in matters of the court, right? and maybe shows like Maury or Jerry Springer.

(You'll think this is silly, but I used to imagine us human beings with a light inside of us like red, orange, green, blue, white etc. And this light would shine and be apparent for everybody to see. So, say someone was glowing red, we'd know they have a guilty conscience, or someone is glowing another color and we know to trust them. How's that for a thought experiment? )

Originally posted by HelenConway
I think few are honest really - it is a slight on the human condition .. and it keeps us in in the shadows as a people, hiding in turmoil and darkness

even in simple matters such as

'' how are you today''

we are all expected to say

' fine thank you and how are you'

So true! I remember when I was a young teen taking Spanish class. I would practice with my Spanish-speaking grandparents. So one time they asked "Como estas?" and I started talking about what was bothering me.

They said, "No, that's wrong."

I ask, "What's wrong? What part did I mess up on?"

"You started by saying "Mal." You're supposed to say you're doing good when someone asks you "Como estas?""

I was astonished! My Spanish lesson ended up being a lesson in "No one cares about your problems. Just lie."

And I personally think that's WRONG! But I'm sure there are plenty on ATS who will disagree with me on this matter (I'm looking at you jiggerj! )

I agree with OP's topic
To Be Honest, IMHO, is To Be Ourselves
To Be Ourselves is to strip off those 'make ups' we put on our characters
These 'make ups' or Lies are introduced by societies to make us less original (unconsciously)
For example, some introverts try to be extroverts by changing the way they behave etc

Correct me if I'm wrong
I'm happy to accept your opinion, sisters and brothers