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Originally posted by theMediator
I really loved your OP NarcolepticBuddha!
It's not the first time I notice your wisdom so I'm totally adding you to my friend's list.
When I wrote about the principle of unity or love being the basis for honesty, I was speaking to someone who would understand the difference between recognition of an esoteric matter (inherent unity) and the result of living on that non-separative basis - which is a life of morality, honesty, feeling-intelligence, etc. In other words, to be truly honest, discover the root of our being, which is love of the Divine and love for/unity with one's "neighbor".
Originally posted by charles1952
It so often happens that I get baffled by the twists and turns within threads.
This is not a criticism of that particular post. No doubt there is a profound truth in there somewhere. But would you rather tell that to a six year-old, or "Lying is when you tell somebody something that you know isn't true, and you want to make them think it is true?"
We only are dishonest when we separate ourselves from our essential unity with others.
"What's "True" daddy?" "When you say of something that is, that it is, that's telling the truth."
I really like that, and it seems to be an excellent general rule, well done.
A six year-old child would likely not understand the subtle nature of this argument, though they would likely understand that when you feel love for others, you naturally will tell them the truth. Rather than trying to teach a child endless good qualities, teach them love or non-separation from others - mainly through your own example of feeling-relatedness. Children can understand the difference between relating rightly to another and not relating rightly to another.
But you should. You have to for honesty to be meaningful at all.
I don't hold honesty on some idealistic pedestal
is impossible, because we can never even know the whole situation. We can never be sure we're even considering the important aspects of it.
Like I said before, honesty is being straight with someone, taking into account the whole situation
Originally posted by bb23108
A six year-old child would likely not understand the subtle nature of this argument, though they would likely understand that when you feel love for others, you naturally will tell them the truth. Rather than trying to teach a child endless good qualities, teach them love or non-separation from others - mainly through your own example of feeling-relatedness. Children can understand the difference between relating rightly to another and not relating rightly to another.
Of course, children need to be taught the literal difference between lying and telling the truth, but also the difference in one's feeling that lying and truthfulness are an expression of.
Originally posted by Char-Lee
reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha
I have always felt the same as you, and that if everyone were honest there could be no war no problems of hardly any kind.
Originally posted by upsidedownforklift
Originally posted by Char-Lee
reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha
I have always felt the same as you, and that if everyone were honest there could be no war no problems of hardly any kind.
An is an interesting thought experiment, if we were all 100% honest...
It would be interesting if we all could all read each others minds. Although, I think I would be horribly embarrassed sometimes but I think it would benefit the "good" far more than those who seek power and control over others.
Walking down the sidewalk outside of a store, I come upon an envelope with $500, and no ID of any kind. Do I keep it to buy food for my several children? Do I turn it in to the store, or the police? If the standard is "do what is best for everybody," I take it home to benefit my many children with food. If there is a firm "Don't take anything that doesn't belong to you," I drop it off at the lost and found without worrying about measuring the benefits that each of the players might receive.
At this point in time I find the most important thing is that I am honest with myself- I do not need to tell everyone else everything. Some things I am being honest with myself about, others just don't care and don't want to hear!
Originally posted by charles1952
Thank you for your patience with me. But you're missing my point entirely.
Originally posted by charles1952
But you should ("hold honesty on some idealistic pedestal"). You have to for honesty to be meaningful at all.
This is true in terms of gaining conventional knowledge and expertise - but love or non-separation or unity is given as a free gift from Reality or God - it is inherent, already the case, and this needs to be recognized, felt, and lived, even moment to moment.
Originally posted by charles1952
And please don't minimize the value of "mentalize endless scenarios." That's how people train.
If you always recognize your connectedness to others and express that in feeling and action, you are in a much better position to feel altogether what is best for yourself and others. This is certainly to be combined with one's mental faculties, but it is not simply a matter of figuring it all out with the head. Heart-feeling-intelligence founded in unity is fundamental.
Originally posted by charles1952
While this might be repetitious,is impossible, because we can never even know the whole situation. We can never be sure we're even considering the important aspects of it.
Like I said before, honesty is being straight with someone, taking into account the whole situation
I made that remark on the basis of one of your scenarios. I would lie if it were absolutely necessary to keep someone from killing say, my daughter. I am pointing out with an extreme example of why honesty cannot be made a goal to be achieved - it is simply the result of always living in unity with Reality and all of life. To live otherwise is unlove, separative, and untrue of our actual nature, even false and dishonest.
Originally posted by charles1952
If honesty is another form of love, and you say that lying may be necessary to avoid violence, then you announce to the world that peace and physical safety is the higher goal. I think few people would agree with you.
True enough - you are describing learning by classic behavioral conditioning.
Originally posted by Bluesma
For one, I feel that a child loves at that age, and because of that, will feel and do whatever brings happiness to the person- including lying. If mommy or daddy becomess joyous when a specific thing is said, and becomes gloom when a specific thing is said, they WILL say the thing that stimulates the positive feeling, whether it is true or a lie!
LOL! Now that is justified 'dishonesty"!
Originally posted by Bluesma
Many a husband has told his wife her butt does not look big precisely because he loves her, he feels her emotions and has no wish to cause her emotional distress!
Originally posted by NarcolepticBuddha
reply to post by GrantedBail
My apologies. I wasn't aware that someone made you expert of the philosophy forum. How dare I share my thoughts when it contradicts your opinions? Shame on me
Originally posted by upsidedownforklift
It would be interesting if we all could all read each others minds. Although, I think I would be horribly embarrassed sometimes but I think it would benefit the "good" far more than those who seek power and control over others.
Originally posted by HelenConway
I think few are honest really - it is a slight on the human condition .. and it keeps us in in the shadows as a people, hiding in turmoil and darkness
even in simple matters such as
'' how are you today''
we are all expected to say
' fine thank you and how are you'