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Honesty

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posted on May, 3 2013 @ 04:07 AM
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reply to post by iSomeone
 


I think gravity is more of a scientific fact than some kind of personal truth.

There are lots of things that have their own truths. Some of those are facts.

I think the OP was discussing more about personal truths and being honest with yourself and others.

At least that was my take. :shrug:




posted on May, 3 2013 @ 04:12 AM
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reply to post by Bluesma
 


This was a very nice post as two others before stated.

Truth and honesty needn't be tactless. When I was growing up there was a phrase my parents would teach me when talking about the truth to others and it was to use words "gracious and seasoned with salt."

Literally that means, like you said learning to be tactful with our words.

Many times one can be cutting with the truth, and then use the excuse, "Well it's the truth," or, "I speak my mind," etc.

I think a really classic example of this type of behavior is Simon Cowell from American Idol. Now his opinion has a lot of weight, and that is because people know he is going to tell you what he REALLY thinks. So if he praises you, you know the praise is well earned. But yet he is tactless and ruthless when telling someone they are no good (well in this case at singing.)

There is a balance in criticism where you can "season your words with salt," so while not lying, you are not tactless when speaking with other people.

And I believe one of the hardest things to learn is to be truthful with ones self. It is easy to try and brush aside our own defects and faults and minimize them in our minds, all the while embellishing and over-exaggerating the weaknesses of others at the same time.

For example, a co-worker steps on your foot without acknowledging you. What do you do? Go home and grow resentful, even vengeful? Or do you see your own weakness, are you honest with yourself. Are you getting mad over something that is trivial? What was the truth behind that co-workers action? Could it be they were preoccupied and didn't even notice you and notice they stepped on your foot on accident?

This may seem like a stupid example, but really enmities can form, long-seated hatreds, people's hasty actions or reactions to perceived "truths" that really aren't there have even caused nations to go to war.



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 04:16 AM
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Originally posted by GrantedBail
reply to post by iSomeone
 


I think gravity is more of a scientific fact than some kind of personal truth.

There are lots of things that have their own truths. Some of those are facts.

I think the OP was discussing more about personal truths and being honest with yourself and others.

At least that was my take. :shrug:


No, you're spot on. Mostly, I just wanted to illustrate how honesty seems to be a universal character trait that is highly valued, yet our reality greatly contrasts with this ideal.

Honesty has many social implications and takes on various interpretations based on the situation. I wanted to hear from others how they negotiate around this minefield. Some seem to do it quite well (naturally, I think you described it.) Others, like me, not so much.
edit on 3-5-2013 by NarcolepticBuddha because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 04:19 AM
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reply to post by iSomeone
 


You refer to "objective" truth.

I understood the OP to be refering to "subjective" truth- the deeper reasons for things, behind the appearences and matter.


In the example I used, the objective truth is that I bumped into you when I did a movement of reaching for a donut.
Yes, that is easy to determine and the question is closed.

The relativity really starts in the question of "why?" That is where telling the truth becomes a question of consideration. In relations with others, how important is it to be honest about your intents and motives? About what is inside?

I have met people who cut themselves off completely from their inner motives, intents and drives, (in the same way a person might avoid entering the dark scary jungle!
) In which they say "I did this." without acknowledging any reason behind it. "It just happened. There was no reason."

They are often being quite honest.... as far as they are aware.

But this question of "why" becomes relevant in relationships with world and others.

If your employer and you cannot find a reason you did an action that resulted in damage to expensive equipment- he cannot have any hope that you two found the source of the action and there is some hope you will not do it again!

He will have to fire you and hire someone who does not have this sort of movement "happen" randomly through their body.

In relationships with a loved one- same thing. Making changes, adjusting behaviors, adjusting to environments, require delving into the "why"s- beyond the "what".

The events have roots.
edit on 3-5-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 04:26 AM
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Originally posted by GrantedBail
reply to post by iSomeone
 


I think gravity is more of a scientific fact than some kind of personal truth.

There are lots of things that have their own truths. Some of those are facts.

I think the OP was discussing more about personal truths and being honest with yourself and others.

At least that was my take. :shrug:


Point taken. And I agree with you.

I think what you said here has a lot of validity with honesty and truth when you think about it. It all boils down to facts. And those facts don't change.

True, everyone may have their own feelings and way they deal with others and themselves, and how they perceive reality, but all of those perceptions come from things that are. Even though are perception of them may not be clear.

Actually, in my little time I've lived I come to understand one really important truth. Almost everything we think we know to be true is wrong. Not that the truth is wrong. It's that our perception of it is wrong.

I can use science as an example. Man has always been changing his view of the universe. And I will tell you what, people today will tell you that we understand it the way people in the past couldn't even begin to fathom, and that may be correct, but in a hundred years from now the way we perceive the "truth" of the universe will be looked down upon as primitive. We really just don't know.

I'm sorry I'm getting long-winded here but bear with me, whether you agree with me or not, and anyone else.

These facts as they stand have lead me to one conclusion, that we really cannot rely upon ourselves for truth.

There are two things, two books that can be relied on as absolute truth and 100% trustworthy.

The first book is the "book of creation." That is our universe and the laws it contains. We may not know what gravity is but we know it is there and we have absolute certainty about how it will function.

In fact scientists say there are four fundamental laws of the universe, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, and electromagnatism. With an understanding of the absolute truth of these laws we can broadcast radio waves, video in the form of TV, we can sit here and type to each other over the internet, or watch videos on youtube. Man can send satellites into orbit, predict with exact percision the timing of celestial bodies so that if we wanted to send a satellite to Pluto it will reach Pluto's orbit, and not just go off into la-la land.

We take advantages of the laws of nature that we observe, and have utter confidence in the.

The other book that is infallible is the Bible. And I realize that is a topic for another thread.

But beyond these two books, mankind is really just fumbling in the darkness. And I look around at the world we live in. I see the greatness man has achieved is by learning to understand the unerring truths about nature's laws.

And I also see miserable failure, because they fail to grasp the unfailing truth of the "other book" that is ignored. Pain, misery, suffering, war, as a result.



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 04:35 AM
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Originally posted by Bluesma
reply to post by iSomeone
 


You refer to "objective" truth.

I understood the OP to be refering to "subjective" truth- the deeper reasons for things, behind the appearences and matter.


In the example I used, the objective truth is that I bumped into you when I did a movement of reaching for a donut.
Yes, that is easy to determine and the question is closed.

The relativity really starts in the question of "why?" That is where telling the truth becomes a question of consideration. In relations with others, how important is it to be honest about your intents and motives? About what is inside?

I have met people who cut themselves off completely from their inner motives, intents and drives, (in the same way a person might avoid entering the dark scary jungle!
) In which they say "I did this." without acknowledging any reason behind it. "It just happened. There was no reason."

They are often being quite honest.... as far as they are aware.

But this question of "why" becomes relevant in relationships with world and others.

If your employer and you cannot find a reason you did an action that resulted in damage to expensive equipment- he cannot have any hope that you two found the source of the action and there is some hope you will not do it again!

He will have to fire you and hire someone who does not have this sort of movement "happen" randomly through their body.

In relationships with a loved one- same thing. Making changes, adjusting behaviors, adjusting to environments, require delving into the "why"s- beyond the "what".

The events have roots.
edit on 3-5-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)


I get what you are saying. And perhaps I may borrow a quote of mine I made in a post above this one:

"I think what you said here has a lot of validity with honesty and truth when you think about it. It all boils down to facts. And those facts don't change."

Perhaps a person may not realize why they are behaving a certain way, but if you get down to the root of the matter there is a reason for it that can be objectively analyzed.

For example a person may be afraid of authority figures. They may shrink at talk with a supervisor at work, etc, and never really relate it to perhaps a deep rooted trauma in their past that maybe happened when they were too little to recall, or do not realize, when someone in a position of authority abused them.

Thus their reactions and their motives they may not completely understand, and thus you are talking about the "relative truth" in their mind. But behind all of that you can still use insight to peer into the matter and if you dig far enough you will find the objective truth and the real reason behind the matter.

Not saying that is is always easy.

I use that example above by the way from my own personal experience. It is something I did not realize until not too long ago. And that self-realization helped me understand the way I interact with people. At the same time it has helped me to change the way I view people and interact with them as well.



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 06:01 AM
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reply to post by iSomeone
 


That is a very good point, and I totally agree!

We could even go further in the examination of that-

Imagine, you have delved deeply into yourself and found deeper layers of your being and motivations...
(such as the issues you described)

You perceive someone else doing something that you can understand as going to those levels too.

Do you say so to them ?? Do you be honest about that?

There are some serious ethical questions to consider there.

-If they haven't become aware of this level in them self, will they be able to recognize it if you point it out?
-If they do, will that cause them to start seeing YOU as a source of self awareness??? (which paradoxically can lead them away from further self awareness, unless you are able to be present with them 24/7)
-What if there are other reasons that motivation is unconscious still? Something else that must be dealt with before that can be? (and if you try to make them "skip" a step, it might be detrimental to them)

I kinda think that we cannot find a definitive answer/solution to such questions- all has to be dealt with in the moment, freestyle, and trying to be as sensitive to as many of the elements as you can.



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 06:03 AM
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Came back to find that had double posted.
edit on 3-5-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 06:36 AM
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Honesty is all we have. I was dishonest with my real Dad and he left. I was dishonest with my cruel stepdad who beat me.

I learned the lesson.

Darryl Forests



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by iSomeone
I use that example above by the way from my own personal experience. It is something I did not realize until not too long ago. And that self-realization helped me understand the way I interact with people. At the same time it has helped me to change the way I view people and interact with them as well.

Have you heard of 'Transactional Analysis'? Eric Berne wrote a book called 'Games People Play' - in it he shares his work on the study of interaction in dialogue.
edit on 3-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 10:26 AM
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Truth is very important but it should always be told with compassion - not with carelessness or arrogance.



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 10:57 AM
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Interesting post. I do believe honesty is an essential virtue for life. Just imagine running around lying and then trying to remember and cover up all the past lies...very stressful.

Sometimes the best way to be honest in a situation (and also the hardest) is to say how you are feeling. Sometimes our conclusions are presented as "being honest." John annoys you, you say that John is an asshole. To be more honest I believe it would be better to say "John I feel really irritated." But of course this is much harder than going on the attack.



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 11:35 AM
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Thanks OP for the thread, "honesty" was something I was looking into earlier today as I am increasingly seeing less and less of it in the world around me.

I find honesty an empowering force--if anyone has ever made someone admit a lie then you would know what I mean; not the empowerment that you "saw thru the BS" but the empowerment you give the person when they finally admit the truth.

Many years ago I made the resolve to always try and tell the truth, no matter how "brutal" that may be, some do not appreciate this when confronted with brutal honesty--but those same people valuse my words more-so as they know I will never knowingly deceive them.

IF there is a soul--Honesty is its voice.



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by cartenz
IF there is a soul--Honesty is its voice.


Beautifully said! I, too have made a similar commitment to always be honest and always tell the truth the best I know how--darn the consequences and repercussions. I don't care how this hurts my interpersonal relationships. A wise man once said, "Be the change you want to see."


Well, a society that has no need to deceive even in the slightest degree is the change I want to see.

Good luck and good blessings in your efforts

edit on 3-5-2013 by NarcolepticBuddha because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 12:54 PM
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Originally posted by cartenz
IF there is a soul--Honesty is its voice.

Beautiful, my life candle is relit by your enthusiasm!

Darryl Forests



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 02:53 PM
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reply to post by AmberLeaf
 


Originally posted by AmberLeaf
So how comes pedophilia is covered up in the church? Thats lying is it not....denying there is a problem is just as bad as saying "i didnt do it". Why do gay Christians say they arent gay? They are lying to themselves mostly.

The "church" has been infiltrated which is why they bare NO resemblance at all to the early Church.


"Every major religion in the world has been manufactured or infiltrated by the Illuminati..."

The Real Conspiracy the Jesuit infiltration of Christianity


I am convinced that many Fundamental Baptist churches are NOW pastored by Jesuits and Opus Dei agents. Many deacons and Sunday School teachers are now inside the Baptist movement teaching doctrines of Rome. You need to read the following articles so that you can watch for the signs that you too have an hireling planted in your church by the Vatican.

LINK

"90% of the Southern Baptist hierarchy are Freemasons. There is also a high percentage of Christian leadership from the Lutheran and United Methodist churches are Masons. This would explain why Ecumenism has spread so easily. ...the goal is to infiltrate it with their compromising philosophies and attempt to destroy the Church from within."

Infiltration of Freemasonry

What if I were to tell you, that there is a vast Satanic conspiracy to deceive the masses of every society on earth? What if I were to tell you that the top leaders of the world’s religions were in league with the Devil? Would you think I’m crazy? I would! Yet, the truth is stranger than fiction! You have been lied to my friend. Few people in the world today are aware of just how much Satan has infiltrated organized religion. Link

"Every major religion in the world has been manufactured or infiltrated by the Illuminati to enslave and brainwash society. In essence, religion was the first form of mind control. The indoctrination of the masses by a "Trojan Horse" false religion has allowed the Illuminati to take control and work in secret for many, many years." Link

The Vatican has infiltrated, or neutered and spayed, virtually every denomination and organization in Christendom. Various means have been used, but Opus Dei has played a major role in this.

Virtually 100% of the world's seminaries are in the pocket of the Roman Whore in that they use her Bible via the Alexandrian Gnostic Greek texts.

I am fully persuaded that Opus Dei and the Jesuits have already planted many of their agents in Baptist and Fundamental churches and schools.

I am convinced that many Fundamental Baptist churches are NOW pastored by Jesuits and Opus Dei agents. Many deacons and Sunday School teachers are now inside the Baptist movement teaching doctrines of Rome. You need to read the following articles so that you can watch for the signs that you too have an hireling planted in your church by the Vatican.

OPUS DEI-- War on Protestantism

"Today the religions of the world remain a major tool of the Illuminati agenda. They maintain the climate of unquestioning, unthinking, ignorance, and their pseudo-morality provides a veil of hypocrisy, behind which the most sickening abuse of children can be hidden."

"Some of the most famous church "leaders" and evangelists on the planet are Illuminati operatives who use religion to manipulate and brain-wash their followers while engaging in Satanic rituals that beggar belief."

"But the mass of unthinking followers in any religion are merely the fodder and the screen behind which the real business goes on." Link



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 04:40 PM
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reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha
 
Another very good thread by you - thanks!

Honesty is founded in recognizing one's inherent relatedness or unity with others. Honesty is an expression or an enactment of one's heart-based feeling-intelligence, of one's inherent connectedness with others. This unity also provides the grounds for taking into account what and how much to say to another.

In other words, if one stays in feeling relationship (love/unity) with another, the other person will also likely recognize and feel this, and thereby trust you and what you are saying more - which will be inherently honest, moral, sensitive, and intelligent if one is actively recognizing one's non-separation from all. This is because the unity in which we all arise enables this most human approach because we see and feel the bigger picture - that we are inherently connected, not separate.

edit on 3-5-2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by bb23108
 
Another very good thread by you - thanks!

Thanks, that means a lot to me



Honesty is an expression or an enactment of one's heart-based feeling-intelligence, of one's inherent connectedness with others.


Interesting! I have never heard honesty described as a unity or connectedness. And that definition is probably the most important one!

In ways you don't know, your post has really clicked with me and helped me solve my dilemma
(The OP was just the ramblings of a little, confused man, but your fresh perspective has helped me out of a bit of a rut. Thanks for that.)



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha
 
Thank you, and I am glad that was useful.

Once we recognize the truth of our inherent unity with others, and live that truth - honesty is simply expressed with real intelligence. Jesus' second great commandment to love one's neighbor as oneself is telling us to recognize this inherent non-separation from one another. It is on this basis that we are honest. Why would would be dishonest with whom we are not separate from? We only are dishonest when we separate ourselves from our essential unity with others.

Of course, this is not to imply that we simply spout out the "truth" indiscriminately - as that too can dishonor or separate us from our essential unity with others. The truth is our inherent unity (love), not some mental ideal of always being "honest".

Making honesty an ideal or principle to somehow always try and live by, rather than allowing it to be the result or expression of our recognizing, feeling, and living non-separate love or unity with all others, is futile seeking (dishonest even) - because it puts the cart before the horse.
edit on 3-5-2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 07:44 PM
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It so often happens that I get baffled by the twists and turns within threads.

We only are dishonest when we separate ourselves from our essential unity with others.
This is not a criticism of that particular post. No doubt there is a profound truth in there somewhere. But would you rather tell that to a six year-old, or "Lying is when you tell somebody something that you know isn't true, and you want to make them think it is true?"

"What's "True" daddy?" "When you say of something that is, that it is, that's telling the truth."



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