Christianity cracked

OK here is my take on the teachings of Jesus and how they have been fundamentally misunderstood on at least 2 main levels.

Firstly, Jesus said we are all Gods children, this would indicate that if Jesus was Gods son and we are also Gods children, then Jesus was an ordinary man and not "special", or "chosen". I am basing this assumption on Jesus own words and interpreting them directly.

This leads to another conclusion. When Jesus was walking on water he had Peter, one of his apostles, with him. So not only was Jesus walking on water but so was Peter, however when Peter started to sink under the waves Jesus said "You of little faith,". This suggests strongly that Jesus achieved his miracles simply because he believed, without question, that he could perform such feats. It also suggests Peter, who is never claimed to be the outright son of God as Jesus is, could also walk on water, as long as he believed he could do it. Interesting, especially as Jesus states "you of little faith", linking Peters faith directly with the ability to walk on water rather than suggesting Jesus provided Peter with the power to achieve this miracle. Very interesting.

Further more, the apostles could talk in tongues, another miracle yet the apostles were supposedly ordinary fishermen, yet capable of miracles. Indicating ordinary people are capable of miracles, not just Jesus. But if ordinary people are capable of miracles then how would that make Jesus any more "special" than an ordinary man with supreme and extraordinary belief? Exactly.

In fact i doubt Jesus ever really claimed to be special or chosen, but I rather suspect the religion that was formed centuries after his death made that assumption, because Jesus main message was that he was "one of us" and an every man, here to suffer like everyone, and suffer worse than most. Jesus the icon, celebrity, is not the Jesus that we are meant to take as an example, pray to a statue of or wear as a t shirt etc, rather we are supposed to take his faith as an example.

Further more, when Jesus died and rose from the dead, it has been said he died to wipe our sins away and give us everlasting life. This obviously cannot be true if you look at how this is preached by modern day Christianity. Obviously if Jesus died so we could live forever, then we would all live forever "literally" here on earth, and people from 2000 years ago would all still be alive today. No, instead we are told the everlasting life is in heaven, but we have to "literally" die to get there...but, according to the Bible Jesus literally died and literally rose from the dead in the flesh. This is yet another "literal" miracle, the biggest of the lot, yet what people miss is the other miracles significance.

if peter could walk on water and the apostles could speak in tongues, and Lazarus also rose from the dead, then that means according to my understanding...when Jesus said he died for our sins and rose again to give us everlasting life... it doesn't mean we can carry on as usual just like before Jesus existed and live and die, but rather he showed us that a human being can literally rise from the dead. I honestly believe the message of the bible is that if you have supreme self belief, that not only can you walk on water but you can stay immortal here on earth in the flesh. This is what I honestly believe is the truth of Jesus message about everlasting life..because otherwise to say we die and go to heaven is a easy way out of accepting that hard facts, if indeed the Bible contains hard facts, but for the sake of argument we will take it as so on this occasion. Jesus literally walked on water..but so did Peter...and Jesus literally rose from death and he stated we had the same ability. The fact that no body else has ever risen from the grave in 2000 years, only proves that nobody believes that its possible..Nobody has even walked on water...but some say Buddha did it before Jesus.

Do I believe I can walk on water, NO. but I do believe that it's possible to convince yourself of anything, and this is the crux of real solid faith, because once you literally believe something is possible, it is. How do you get into a state of mind where you believe walking on water, walking through walls or speaking Japaneses without learning it or becoming immortal is possible? Could there be a state of self induced hypnosis. Remember Jesus spent 40 days and nights in the wilderness, no doubt meditating..Just like Buddha under the tree.

Like I said I think the Bible is a lot more literal than spiritual.

reply to post by TheBlackHat

you can stay immortal here on earth in the flesh.

Stay in a world full of pain, sorrow and destruction?

God sakes I hope you're wrong... I only want to remain in this "prison" as long as I have to...

reply to post by TheBlackHat


Thats pretty intense! Very interesting! Would this apply to the rule: Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, it will achieve?

reply to post by ValentinoG


Yes exactly. Also when you look at the quantum world, and recent experiments, it suggests that reality is based on our observations of it. And even further back the famous double slit experiment, proved that the atomic particles react to our observations, known as the observer effect. Well, if everything is made of atoms, literally all matter, and if our observing of matter can affect its behavior, then you can state consciousness affects the behavior or state of matter..its already been proven at the quantum level as FACT. Jesus apparently was able to use his consciousness to affect matter on a much larger scale, somehow he understood this principal thousands of years ahead of science, but further more he somehow amplified the observer effect to make it achieve incredible miracles, he was able to bend reality with his consciousness, Aka NEO from the Matrix, and more than that Jesus tried to tell us all that we are capable of doing it too..i believe Buddhas message was the same thing.

reply to post by Akragon


well it also states in the Bible that once Jesus "literally" came back from the dead, that he ascended into heaven. again, he did not do this is spirit form but literally in the flesh. This suggests heaven is a physical place for actual human beings, the ones who have literally concurred physical death.

What about the individuals who convince themselves they can fly so they jump off a building---just to end up dying.

I think there is something else missing besides the 100% faith factor. Very interesting nonetheless.

first someone is going to have to prove that this "Jesus" actually existed for real
till then you might as well be learning how to spell in Klingon

reply to post by TheBlackHat

Jesus didn't literally walk on water or rise from the dead, that's a bit ridiculous in my opinion. If truly believing someone could walk on water means it's possible, you'd see Christians doing it everyday.

What I believe is that the miracles were added in later to make Jesus seem like more than human. They had 20+ years between Jesus' death and the writing of the first gospel, more than enough time for TPTB of the time to make them up and insert them into his story.

The miracles are nothing but pagan symbolism having to do with the sun. The sun turns water and seeds into grapes which can be turned into wine, the sun "walks" on water every time it sets or rises over the horizon near a beach. The sun's reflection also "walks" on water. The resurrection after three days has to do with the winter solstice. Jesus healing the sick is metaphor for time, time is based on the sun's movement across the sky. With time, the sick will be healed naturally. When Jesus spoke of his resurrection, I believe he was speaking of reincarnation, except Rome twisted it to mean literally rising from the dead.

It's obvious in my eyes that the miracles were fabricated. The three Mary's at Jesus' crucifixion are based on Orion's Belt. Coincidentally, Orion's Belt is called "The Three Mary's" in Latin America.

The one's who nailed Jesus to the cross were Romans, and guess what religion they were (mostly) part of at that time... paganism. I don't think that's a coincidence.

If you read about the crucifixion, the Roman soldiers put a scarlet robe on Jesus before his crucifixion, that's a reference to the whore of Babylon mentioned in Revelation 17, who wore purple and scarlet. Coincidentally, they took the robe off and put him back into his own clothes before nailing him to the cross, this insinuates (in my opinion) Rome changing Jesus into the whore of Babylon while still suggesting that he is not to later Christians.

Even though I don't agree with you, I'll S&F you anyways. This should bring up some good discussion, so there's that.

yea..


merging the divinty of jesus, with the ideology of the ancient world

turning it into an elite hierachy of legitamcy


...

empiralism in religion? catholics??

reply to post by TheBlackHat


Thread

Wow...where do I even start?

Obviously you haven't read the bible. Peter wasn't with Jesus when he walked on the water. He was in a ship with the other disciples.

Matthew 14:22-33 says...Immediately Jesus made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowd. 23 After he had dismissed them, he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray. Later that night, he was there alone, 24 and the boat was already a considerable distance from land, buffeted by the waves because the wind was against it.

25 Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26 When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.

27 But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”

28 “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”

29 “Come,” he said.

Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”

31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”

32 And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. 33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

When the apostles spoke in tongues it was given to them by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3 And there appeared to them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat on each of them.
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

I don't have the time to go into your other "assumptions" but you should read the bible before stating what your opinions are.

reply to post by TheBlackHat


Great post! S+F

A common theme I noticed amongst the miracles performed by Jesus is that he manipulated matter. I can't think of a miracle where he created something out of thin air. He always either multiplied something or changed it. He fed many with a loaf of bread. He turned water into wine. He walked on water rather than flying or hovering. And so on.

Also, is it just me, or were his actions on the road to Damascus a parable for the standard model of particle physics? I'll have to write a thread in order to explain it further.

reply to post by TheBlackHat


I think the experiment proved that we create our own reality, meaning reality is totally dependent on our collective existence. I don't think it has anything to do with walking on water or rising from the dead, there are laws in place that prevent those things from happening, called physics.

If Jesus could do anything with the power of his mind, I think he would have done some things a little more impressive than walking on water or rising from the dead, like staying here so that everyone could see and believe in his miracles.

I think he could have done a few miracles that weren't connected to paganism as well. Why not create a never-ending supply of bread instead of cutting it off at five thousand people? That would have fixed the hunger problem forever, but he didn't do it.

reply to post by kijne


What you quoted says that Peter walked on water.... read it again.

reply to post by Danbones


What would you constitute as "proof"? Other than the bible, there is nothing else about Jesus in history. Unless you consider the NT is based around a real person, nothing will be proof enough for you.

So just admit it, nothing will convince you he was real.

reply to post by TheBlackHat

I wouldn't say that those "siddhis" (as they are called in eastern culture) like walking on water (what would be Laghima: becoming almost weightless) or walking through walls (what would be Prāpti: having unrestricted access to all places) can be achieved solely and entirely by faith.

Faith instead would be your MOTIF to stay on the tiresome spiritual path you did choose to reach enlightenment (or the heavens... ) where those siddhis are considered nothing more than stepping stones or sometimes even traps of and for the Ego.
There are several more of them (siddhis). Greater and lesser - and all of them occur in their natural order to show (off) your "spiritual development".

en.wikipedia.org...

What you described concerning the stroll of J&P over the lake has not anything to do with believing in your own power.
P didn't get wet because he lacked faith that HE (P) could do it - he was of little faith in his teacher/master J.

This is about something the Sufi calls "Baraka" - in Star Wars a dumbed down version of it is called "the Force".
Through DIRECT bodily CONTACT this force is transmitted - and in the eastern cultures it is not to uncommon to see grown men walk hand in hand.
So when J let P's hand go - P got wet - because he didn't believe in J and his Baraka and that J had him (P) MADE ABLE to be weightless.

And this is why J on another occasion taught "Nobody will reach the Father - but through me (My own words I'm too lazy right now to look it up in an American Bible version.)

All those paths that work with "the Force" in some way attribute their achievements through time and space to an "unbroken chain" (like an electrical wire) of that force that began directly with their worshiped deity and was through DIRECT CONTACT (thats what blessing is about... ) brought right into this moment of time.
When the chain is broken - the last teacher dies for example without having TRANSFERRED his SPECIAL force to a successor - this chain can not be repaired.
It is only possible to establish a new one - with a lot of (spiritual) work and known rituals.
But success is not granted this way.
Because of that there are so many sects and belief-systems - and not all of them "work" as promised.

I hope that this can be considered helpful on your "stroll".
No one wants you to get wet.

A

Addition: Thanks to the poster kijne for his thorough citation of the concerned passage of the stroll.
You are obviously right and the real account slipped my memory.
But this made it even more clear that the physical contact was needed to save P from drowning - because his faith needed to be "refreshed".

He needed to be plugged into the source again.

A

reply to post by TheBlackHat

Interesting thread, thanks for starting it. Of course, I don't accept a word of it, but that doesn't matter. Let's start with one of your fundamental propositions, that Jesus' miracles were done through a super-advanced understanding of quantum mechanics to which we have yet to attain. From the physics website of the University of Illinois comes a question and answer session.

. Q...There's a lot of confusion between the uncertainty principle and the observer effect, leading to the new age, nonsensical claim that we can willfully create the world around us by altering our thoughts. So, to be clear (because there's a lot of conflicting info out there), when we talk about "observing" an electron and thereby changing its state, we're talking about using equipment to measure it, not simply observing with the naked eye, right? - Ian (age 29) California

A:... Right, we have no indication at all that interaction with conscious beings (e.g. us) does something different than interaction with any other large object in which some record is left of the results. Of course, the only events we are aware of are those of which we are aware, but we can leave that worry for the philosophers. At any rate, the structure of quantum mechanics, in particular its violation of the Bell Inequalities, would run into big trouble if the random outcomes of quantum events were influenced by any local variable, including human will.

There are serious reasons (including the violation of the Bell Inequalities) to conclude that the sort of events described by quantum mechanics are "free" in the sense that no prior fact about the universe can tell us which outcome we will observe. That doesn't mean that the necessary determining facts are hard to find; it means they didn't exist.

van.physics.illinois.edu...

If PK (psychokinesis) were to exist as claimed by some experimenters, it would violate some well-established laws of physics, including the inverse square law, the second law of thermodynamics, and the conservation of momentum, according to Martin Gardner and Thomas Gilovich. Hence scientists have demanded a high standard of evidence for PK, in line with Marcello Truzzi's dictum "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". When apparent PK can be produced in ordinary ways—by trickery, special effects or by poor experimental design—scientists accept that explanation as more parsimonious than to accept that the laws of physics should be rewritten.

en.wikipedia.org...

Jesus apparently was able to use his consciousness to affect matter on a much larger scale, somehow he understood this principal thousands of years ahead of science, but further more he somehow amplified the observer effect to make it achieve incredible miracles, he was able to bend reality with his consciousness, Aka NEO from the Matrix,

"Somehow?" and another "somehow?" He was able to do what a movie actor could only do with CGI?

And as far as Apostles doing a miracle when they spoke with tongues, You did notice that the miracle was done TO them, not by them, right?

Maybe more later, I'm too long-winded as it is.

Allegory is a literary device in which characters or events in a literary, visual, or musical art form represent or symbolize ideas and concepts..
Allegory has been used widely throughout the histories of all forms of art.
A major reason for this, is its immense power to illustrate complex ideas and concepts in ways that are easily digestible and tangible to its viewers/readers/listeners.
An allegory conveys its hidden message through symbolic figures, actions, imagery, and/or events.
Allegory is generally treated as a figure of rhetoric.
A rhetorical allegory is a demonstrative form of representation conveying meaning other than the words that are spoken.

some Rhetorical synonyms:
embellished, exaggerated, flamboyant, flashy*,grand, grandiloquent, grandiose, high-flown, hyperbolic,, inflated, ornate, ostentatious, overblown, overdone, overwrought, pompous, pretentious, showy, silver-tongued, sonorous, swollen, verbose, vocal,

you will never crack christianity at the rate you (all) are going!

reply to post by charles1952


What about Peter or Paul raising people from the dead? They did that didn't they?