Next Asian crisis arrives: Chinese soldiers make military incursion into India- India considers resp

Don't forget Pakistan in this equation. Both Pakistan and China have been testing India's boundaries for decades. The only reason India hasn't fallen is because they have nukes.

But then again, Pakistan and China have nukes as well. Which make the whole situation very complicated.

Any major incursion into India will likely mean somebody presses the launch button. If India tries to move forces into Pakistan, somebody presses the launch button.

And while India and Pakistan are busy fighting one another along the Kashmir border, China is always looking for an opening.

Eventually, either India is going to lose the northern half of their country or they are going to be obliterated. However, India needs that chunk of land or they lose most of their farmland and fresh water. So it is either keep fighting or die.

Some have argued that Pakistan and India could always merge. But they have severe ideological issues on that front. Pakistan is a devoutly muslim country whereas India is not. Which is why they separated in the first place after no longer being controlled by the British.

Originally posted by Glassbender777
Makes you wonder if China knows something that India doesnt, Maybe the land, has a vast amount of natural resources. Why else fight over high altitude land, that really doent have anything on it, maybe under it

good point,almost all china's other currant "territorial disputes" have to do with resources (they just want Taiwan out of spite), so would make sense that this is about resources as well. China is becoming very worrisome in regards to these attempts to grab lands with resources that other countries own. wonder where they will next "dispute" land that doesn't belong to them?

am i the only one thinking the world needs to take out North Korea except this time instead of worrying that the military forces will "stray into China", continue from North Korea and take out China as well? China doesn't rant and rave like little kimmy whine whine, but they may just be a bigger danger to their neighbors. what neighboring country DON"T they have a dispute with yet? when and where can we expect yet another territory dispute from china?

reply to post by generik


This particular case is about security. (security of Karakoram highway).

Karakoram highway is important to China as it can reach Arabian sea overland using this route.

China wants territory to act as buffer between India and this highway.

Last poster had it right, the Chinese are pretty smart they know how to get what they want, sit there long enough while in negotiation and eventually you have squatters rights, the end.

The stuff in the pacific is very minor also, in time they will get more than a fair share of those reserves and nobody will be able to do much about it.

As above the prior poster has it, they wont be fighting hard with india, there true ambitions are west, the pacific a safe zone and some resources from their coast the Indian border a safe zone for the ability to move west.

No one "gets" the Chinese philosophy, we look at their hardware and army by our standards, realistically their whole military exists to enforce peoples war and hold strategic locations, put 1 Million guys somewhere and no one will really want to attack them... solidify new borders that way.

The real war is by numbers

Canada and Now California has the highest immigration rate of Asians now (yes Asians are flocking to cali in greater numbers than mexicans, by far) Ditto for Siberia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan... Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan...

You can be 100% sure the reason they "loaned" us so much money through our Middle Eastern forays was to clear the silk road for them...

India is not the target

America is not the Target

Japan is not the Target...


These are trade partners, these skirmishes are ONLY to assure cutting them off from real goal is not "Easy"

Central Asia and The Middle East, Silk Road, now Oil Road, the Path to Trade with Europe and Energy independence

They wont shoot it out either... They will simply "Move In" after we are done bombing and fighting.... workers.

reply to post by penninja


You have got it right. China follows people's war policies that allow it to hold land much better through mass immigration.

Tibet and Sinkiang (Xinxiang) were not part of China. China simply moved in after 2nd world war when nobody was looking.

However now the issue is that China has bought both USA and Europe (specially France) through lending large sums of money.

This improves China's profile greatly as it can needle neighbours like India, Japan and Philippines without inviting action from USA and Europe.

India has Dalai Lama sitting in its territory, courtesy of Empire politics (many consider Nehru to be a British plant. Nehru was not the kind of politician that would suffer at the hand of British Authorities. He was a sophisticated man with high tastes). Dalai Lama is a problem for China if China ever has to move forces through Karakoram highway.

Originally posted by GargIndia
reply to post by penninja

 

You have got it right. China follows people's war policies that allow it to hold land much better through mass immigration.

Tibet and Sinkiang (Xinxiang) were not part of China. China simply moved in after 2nd world war when nobody was looking.

no.

Qing China had Tibet as a tributary kingdom for 130 years from 1788 to 1908, and for 100 years or more befoer then had been incorporating border provinces of Tibet into its own provinces. tibet also at least paid tribute to the Ming Court over a few hundred years befoertehn, and may or may not have acknowledged it as it's superior.

the Han Chinese conquered Xinjiang by about 60BC and their control lasted until about 100AD. control seesawed among kingdoms until the the Tang about 600 AD who also established a "protectorate" in the area, as did the Qing after more internicine warfare and an era of Mongol control. the Qing formally established it as a province rather than a border protectorate in 1882 or 1884.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


The system of protectorate is a very old one.

In modern times, South Korea and Japan can be called protectorate of USA.

The question is 'direct rule'. At the time of formation of modern chinese state in 1948; what were the states directly ruled by China?

I know these things are complex and there is no simple answer.

China has become a very strong nation; and most people accept these things silently just as it is the case with other big powers.

The crisis is over for now, they've gone home

A troll banner displayed by the Chinese troops in the Indian zone:

Originally posted by GargIndia
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

China has become a very strong nation; and most people accept these things silently just as it is the case with other big powers.

China has atleast $2Trillion in national reserves. This is a vast amount of change in the vault.

Chinese defense budget is twice that of India.

China has many industrial sectors well developed that are major participants on the global basis. India only has software industry, very feeble call centre clusters.

India will not be able to keep up with China.

IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT INDIA MAKES A DEFENSE PACT WITH JAPAN TO OFFEST PLA STRENGHT AND ALSO WARD OFF OVERWHELMING PRESSURE FROM TWO FRONTS OF CHINA AND PAK.

IF INDIA DOES NOT ACT ON THESE LINES SOON, THE CONSEQUENCES WILL NOT BE SURPRISING.

reply to post by victor7


Completely agree with you.

India and China's neighbors will need to work together to stave off China's future expansionism. India, SoKo, Taiwan, Japan, and other SE Asian countries should form an alliance or, at the very least, have a mutual defence pact. It'd be an act that tells China their expansionistic ideas should be dumped. Because in the next 10 to 20 years from now, China's technological deficit with the US will most likely be non-existent.

Since the mid-90s, I've been keeping an eye on China's progress (mostly miilitarily). That China-Taiwan Scare back then was what trigged it. Because China played that usual Cold War cat-and-mouse game US and Russia were so fond of playing.

China's military leaders wanted to see how and with what US would respond to an act of aggression towards Taiwan. Chinese leaders estimated US would respond with 3 carrier groups. To their surprise, US responded with 6 carrier groups. Since then, China has been investing heavily on tech, hardware, tactics and strategy to combat such a show of force.

reply to post by guppy


Other than mutual defense pacts with Japan, Vietnam and others, India stands little chance keeping up with Chinese defense spending. Pact with Japan is crucial, others can wait but not for long.

China --------- * Annual defence budget: $114 billion (declared budget but spends much more) * Large nuclear-capable missile arsenal. Road-mobile DF-31A missile can hit targets 11,200-km away, while the JL-2 submarine-launched missile has a 7,400-km range. * Armed Forces: 2.2 million troops * Submarines: 55 (at least 5 nuclear attack ones) * Major Warships: 75 (one aircraft carrier) * Fighter Jets: Over 1,700 * Main-Battle Tanks: Over 7,000

India ---------- * Annual defence budget: $39 billion * Limited nuclear-capable missile arsenal. Agni-I (700-km), Agni-II (2,500-km) and Agni-III (3,000-km) inducted. Agni-IV (3,500 km) and Agni-V (5,000-km) being tested. * Armed Forces: 1.3 million troops * Submarines: 15 (one nuclear-powered but without strategic missiles) * Major Warships: Over 30 (one aircraft carrier) * Fighter Jets: Over 550 * Main-Battle Tanks: Over 3,200

reply to post by victor7


True, victor7. From the countries mentioned, Japan is on the top of that list. So is SoKo and Taiwan. In any case, creating an alliance with most or all of China's neighbors would be idea (and a snowball's chance in hell).

A great website about China's military:

www.sinodefence.com...

reply to post by victor7


Defence is not just about budgets. India has the necessary manpower and depth to defend itself.

However the destruction to India's cities could be significant if nuclear/chemical/biological weapons are used.

I am not sure how effectively India counter-attacks. India is a very passive country and its offensive potential is doubtful.

However whatever the case, India will survive as a country in the current shape and form. It will not be divided and it will not fall into the hands of the enemies.

reply to post by guppy


It will be counter-productive for India to ally with Japan or any other country. First of all such an alliance will not come about as alliance happen only when both parties see benefit. Second many countries have existing alliances they would not like to disturb. Third India has ample manpower and industrial capability, so there is no significant gain from such alliances.

Originally posted by GargIndia
reply to post by guppy

 

It will be counter-productive for India to ally with Japan or any other country. First of all such an alliance will not come about as alliance happen only when both parties see benefit. Second many countries have existing alliances they would not like to disturb. Third India has ample manpower and industrial capability, so there is no significant gain from such alliances.

Exactly. Allying with Japan/Vietnam is a stupid move beyond comprehension. Makes the Chinese more trigger happy and shoots at India whenever they want a shot a Japan. India and China should solve their problems mutually instead of bringing in others and that includes the Pakistan.

Instead of agonising each others, they should work with each others to fulfill their countries' potentials.

reply to post by mypan


This is the way I see it too. However these issues may drag some more due to external factors.

Patience may help India more than anything else.

Originally posted by GargIndia
reply to post by mypan

 

This is the way I see it too. However these issues may drag some more due to external factors.

Patience may help India more than anything else.

Counting on manpower? guess you do not know anything about modern warfare.

Refusing alliance with Japan and counting on patience? For how long you all have shown patience with Pakistan and what happens six months later? Indians and especially Indian men have severe shortage of self esteem and pride.

Alliance with Japan will open a second front and already existing alliance with Russia will bring pressure if not bullets from the North. Russians will not go to war with China over India. Having these two trump cards at hand would first and foremost make China think 100 times before doing anything trigger happy with India. On the otherhand, in half a second China can have Pak open a second front on India and other Islamic nations will follow in form of arms and finances.

Alliance with Japan will also bring India closer to a very big market and if Indians have any "grit and guts", they will make full use of such enhanced status in friendship.

I have been to India twice to visit a spiritual guru. India is lost in time even in comparison with South America. Standards of basic items are very low. Indians call themselves hindus but they seem to be the biggest enemies of Hinduism themselves. Very little pride and sense of collective honor in the Indian man of today. Sorry but that's what I feel.

Originally posted by mypan
Allying with Japan/Vietnam is a stupid move beyond comprehension. Makes the Chinese more trigger happy and shoots at India whenever they want a shot a Japan.

Why would India allying with Japan/[and other East Asian countries, not just Vietnam] make China more trigger happy? Why was NATO created? Did the formation of NATO turn Russia and its allies into trigger-happy warmongers? No. Alliances can deter aggression from aggresive neighbors.

China is an aggressive neighbor. They have big, long-term plans. And it spells, "S-U-P-E-R-P-O-W-E-R". Right now, China is only flexing their muscles. When China is ready, their neighbors may regret they stand alone and not together.

My proposal doesn't have to be a complete alliance (militarily, economic, and polical) between India and other East Asian countries. They could form a mutual defense pact that states they would come to each others' aid if and when attacked by a non-signee. Who knows, a mutual defense pact could be the making of a beautiful friendship.

In summary, I do not understand your logic where countries allying would make their mutual enemy more trigger happy. Please explain.

Originally posted by mypan
India and China should solve their problems mutually instead of bringing in others and that includes the Pakistan. Instead of agonising each others, they should work with each others to fulfill their countries' potentials.

That is a fine theory which I wish was the case. But, in the real world, each side has their own agenda. That's why China and India have disputed territory. After decades of dispute, what are the chances they both look into each others' eyes, smile, apologize and hug? Maybe one day China and India will see each other as potential allies. Until then, I believe in the saying:

Plan for the worst, but hope for the best.

reply to post by victor7


My friend, you have some ideas and you can take it to the Indian government.

I have no influence on Indian government and I cannot help you.

I tell my own analysis of the situation.

1. It is unlikely that Japan will ally with India. Japan is already allied with US and Japan has no common security interests with India.

2. Russia has been a military supplier to India for a long time. This continues. However Russia has similar situation as Japan as it hardly has common security interests with India.

3. Small nations like Vietnam etc. do not have military capability to help India in need even if an alliance is reached.

reply to post by guppy


India cannot be a counterweight to China's superpower ambitions.

As China and Russia could not stop USA from becoming superpower, India cannot stop China from becoming superpower.

The situation you describe is an imaginary one - that China and Pakistan and everybody else attacks India at the same time. We do not know if this will happen and why this will happen. Nothing happens without significant reason.

Even if it happens, India has to defend itself with its own resources. This is how it is.