To Catholics...

Originally posted by windword
Jesus never used the term "church". It's derived from a 3rd century Greek word:

I dunno.

Matthew 16:18 - And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

You might be able to argue the exact word, but the SPIRIT of what Jesus said seems to be pretty clearly indicating He has a church on Earth ... a group that will follow him and be separate from others and will prevail against evil ....

that's my take at any rate ...

reply to post by FlyersFan



Jesus' message can't be confined in the Nicene Creed or Vatican declarations of supremacy. Christianity, and the body of followers of Christ isn't found under one "roof."

Originally posted by windword
Jesus' message can't be confined in the Nicene Creed or Vatican declarations of supremacy. Christianity, and the body of followers of Christ isn't found under one "roof."

The groups followers try to claim Him as their own.
Not just the Catholics ... but ALL of them!
Ask a S. Baptist ... or a Church of Christ ... or a Holiness ... or an Amish person ... etc etc ...
They all also think they are the true church establishsed by Jesus.

The SPIRIT of what Jesus said does indeed look like He established a church.
And it does indeed look like He established a head of the church.
The question is .. is that still valid today .. 2,000 years later?
I have to answer .. YES. Jesus said that the gates of Hell wouldn't prevail against it.
Therefore, it seems that there is indeed a "church" started by Jesus and that He said
it would prevail ... meaning not end and that corruptioin wouldn't destroy it.

So .... where is this 'church' and who is it's earthly head??

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by windword
Jesus' message can't be confined in the Nicene Creed or Vatican declarations of supremacy. Christianity, and the body of followers of Christ isn't found under one "roof."

The groups followers try to claim Him as their own.
Not just the Catholics ... but ALL of them!
Ask a S. Baptist ... or a Church of Christ ... or a Holiness ... or an Amish person ... etc etc ...
They all also think they are the true church establishsed by Jesus.

The SPIRIT of what Jesus said does indeed look like He established a church.
And it does indeed look like He established a head of the church.
The question is .. is that still valid today .. 2,000 years later?
I have to answer .. YES. Jesus said that the gates of Hell wouldn't prevail against it.
Therefore, it seems that there is indeed a "church" started by Jesus and that He said
it would prevail ... meaning not end and that corruptioin wouldn't destroy it.

So .... where is this 'church' and who is it's earthly head??

FlyersFan, bravo, well said. Everyone can understand your explanation, it is the truth. I like your term "does indeed look like."

My college freshman was home this last weekend with his free to be him and I do not need the faith comments.

I asked him in reply..."oh really, so, your PO about what happens to you after death is what takes place?"

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by windword
Jesus' message can't be confined in the Nicene Creed or Vatican declarations of supremacy. Christianity, and the body of followers of Christ isn't found under one "roof."

The groups followers try to claim Him as their own.
Not just the Catholics ... but ALL of them!
Ask a S. Baptist ... or a Church of Christ ... or a Holiness ... or an Amish person ... etc etc ...
They all also think they are the true church establishsed by Jesus.

The SPIRIT of what Jesus said does indeed look like He established a church.
And it does indeed look like He established a head of the church.
The question is .. is that still valid today .. 2,000 years later?
I have to answer .. YES. Jesus said that the gates of Hell wouldn't prevail against it.
Therefore, it seems that there is indeed a "church" started by Jesus and that He said
it would prevail ... meaning not end and that corruptioin wouldn't destroy it.

So .... where is this 'church' and who is it's earthly head??

Perhaps corruption doesn't destroy his "church" but his church isn't seated in corruption, as the Vatican was and is.

Well we know his church can't be the Catholic Church, who's creeds and doctrines contradict what Jesus taught and who's methods of conversion go down in history as among the most barbaric and hypocritical.

I don't know, but I know where it isn't, as I already addressed and answered here: www.abovetopsecret.com...://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread944740/pg4#pid16384698

Originally posted by windword
Well we know his church can't be the Catholic Church, who's creeds and doctrines contradict what Jesus taught

I dunno. Aren't creeds and doctrines a matter of interpretation? I see Jesus saying one thing .. someone else reads His words and see's something else. Catholics might have their interpretation correct. Or perhaps the Methodists do. Or perhaps the Baptists. Or perhaps none of them. Or perhaps they all got a little bit correct.

and who's methods of conversion go down in history as among the most barbaric and hypocritical.

True. And the Protestants have a rather bloody history as well. Same/same.

Originally posted by windword

Well we know his church can't be the Catholic Church, who's creeds and doctrines contradict what Jesus taught

Are you familiar with this site? It addresses pretty well those questions asked by folks who think the Catholic Church is not biblical.

Originally posted by windword

and who's methods of conversion go down in history as among the most barbaric and hypocritical.

I'm afraid history is a bit more nuanced than broad statements such as that. Have there been hypocrites in the Church? Absofrigginlutely. Does that mean that everyone is? Or that the entire Church is? I doubt that, as She's still alive and well!

And one more thought, if I may, why only focus on Christian conversions? What about battles amongst the pagans? Or among Muslims? Just because we are called Christians, doesn't mean we are to be door mats.

Christianity gets a bad wrap a lot of times because the world hates Christians, or at least what the world perceives as Christians. My $.02.

reply to post by IsidoreOfSeville


Christianity doesn't equal Catholicism. The Pope, who represents the Vatican, is claiming, as have all of his predecessors, that his convoy is the correct and only means to true Christianity, and therefore, salvation.

This is a completely arrogant assumption, as are all the others that claim to have the only path to salvation.

I thought Christianity was a "church" built on the words of and teaching of Jesus, and the fellowship of those who find his teaching relevant. That is his church in my opinion. As to it's leaders, assassinated, as always.

reply to post by windword


windword,

Hi, I love you sister. And everyone. Please, do not believe the anti-Catholicism you hear or read. It is the oppositeprophesied to happen. God is going to show every person on the earth, the true faith is Catholicism during the prophesied Great Warning, before the appearance of the anti-Christ.

Can you not see, the faith, Roman Catholicism is persecuted the most and it is going to get worse. You will see changes made, never before professed in 2000 years of Catholicism.

The Eucharist will be called a mere symbol instead of what it is, the risen body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ, please remember when it happens. It will be the anti-Christ's non-pope, the False Prophet bringing about these lies.

Read Pope Francis words, he is holy, he speaks the Truth.


love,

colbe

+ + +

“You cannot find Jesus outside the Church ... It is the Mother Church who gives us Jesus,
who gives us the identity that is not only a seal, it is a belonging."

In challenging Catholics to be more stalwart and rigid, yes rigid in their faith he said ..
“But when we start to cut down the Faith, to negotiate Faith, a little like selling it to the
highest bidder, we take the path of apostasy, of disloyalty to the Lord.”

About lukewarm Catholics he said ..
“These Christians are not united in the Church, they do not walk in God's presence, they
don’t have the security of the Holy Spirit, they do not make up the Church. .. to quote the
words of Jesus in Revelation, 'lukewarm Christians'. The indifference that is in the
Church ... They walk only in the presence of common sense common sense ... that
worldly prudence.”

And at his first Mass .. he said point blank to the cardinals who has just elected him the
day before ..
.. "if we do not profess Jesus Christ, things go wrong. We may become a
charitable NGO, but not the Church, the Bride of the Lord ... When we do not profess
Jesus Christ, we profess the worldliness of the devil, a demonic worldliness .. we may be
bishops, priests, cardinals, popes, but not disciples of the Lord."

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by colbe


Colbe,

How can the Pope claim that it is the "Mother Church" who gives us Jesus, when the bible says:

"For GOD so loved the world that HE gave .............

God, supposedly sent Jesus, who lived and died hundreds of years before the establishment of the Catholic Church. Even if you believe that Jesus founded his "church", which is a word that Jesus surely didn't use, on Peter's rock, why should we believe that church's spirit persists in the Catholic church?

Now, I don't believe in the Biblical God nor that Jesus is that God's son, or an incarnation of that God or of any God. I believe Jesus was sincere and charismatic teacher, nothing more.

My problem lies not with the teachings of Jesus, but with the Pope claiming to be the head of the only church to know and dispense his teachings. That seems to be a pretty limiting avenue for the creator of the universe. And given the history of the church, it looks like they failed miserably for many centuries, to impart his teachings.