You don't have Free Will.

page: 5
80
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join

posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:01 PM
link   
reply to post by TheBandit795
 

Ya there is no free will like people think there is. There is the "law of confusion" which is interpreted as free will, but they are two distinctive different and separate things, and people literally are like those little toy soldiers you wind up and put them on the ground and watch them march. So yes to a greater degree all of humanity is on autopilot and all there choices are made long before they make them, in anything from what your going to wear today, to who your going to marry, to what click your going to hang out with, to a myriad of other peculiarities and idiosyncrasies that make up a human, the majority of which are basically sort of predestined to happen.

The only choice they would have is in the choice of how it would come about, but even that is already pretty much set in stone. And your subconscious is the driving seat to many actions that you think are your free will, and the subconscious can be manipulated, that is why you see companies and corporations spend billions on advertizements and other means, and not only that but there are other entities who do the same thing using other methods or even the same methods. But yes for the majority of people on this planet there is no such thing as free will, they just think they have free will. Its crazy I know, but it is what it is.




posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:11 PM
link   
reply to post by galadofwarthethird
 


Do I get to choose at what point my wife conceives amidst all the times we have sex?
Is my virility or her barrenness predetermined?
Am I free to have sex with her? Am I free to make her pregnant?



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:15 PM
link   
We are our subconscious, that "something else" that chooses for us is not something else, but us. That's how I see it at least.

I choose whether I walk into the next room or not, not something else.
edit on 2-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:18 PM
link   
reply to post by TheBandit795
 


Glad to hear you are prepared to not take responsibility for actions you perform, thoughts you have...so...while everyone else is being 'unfree-willed'...who is responsible?

Stupid beyond belief...

A99



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:18 PM
link   
reply to post by cartesia
 



Having true free will (as defined by most people) doesn't actually matter as long as we have the unfaltering illusion of free will. As long as we think we are operating on free will there is no reason for us to worry - and it doesnt matter how much evidence of otherwise gets thrown at us, at the end of the day we will still feel like we are making a decision, even if we 'know' we are not.


Ah that is so true. The illusion of free will is just as real as any other thing, and how would one discern one from the other. The truth of the matter is not that it does not exist, but it does not matter. And hence illusions are grander, and many people still practice there so called free will day in and day out because of that very reason, in anything and everything, just look at religion, or politics, they all think they have a sort of free will in it all. And yet they have been arguing about the same things for ages, its the illusion of free will that people like much more then actual free will. Because that would take some effort. But in there perspective realities they are real to the ones who believe them unconditionally.

In fact more so then unconditionally but there whole reality depends on not looking or asking to far reaching of questions.It is pretty much the same for the thing people think as free will, instead the things that they think are as solid as stone, are actually illusory. Energies are being transmitted all the time, and the person who puts in there vote for the president thinking he or she actually has much if any say in the matter is transmitting a energy which thereby lets the whole thing in accumulation keep running and propagating itself.

It is the same sort of thing for free will, there is an energy transmission though much much much more subtle to see or witness, but ultimately we are like dolls caught in a web of strings, and free will only exists to the degree we think it does and only as long as we don't pass its boundaries, and in this case the boundaries are the impossible the thing which does not exist and which literally can not exist and you are not capable of thinking it exists. And yet! from all perspectives all creatures from the ant to the antelope to the lion and the human are the masters of there universe...Whats that saying, we are all the center of our own universe.



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:23 PM
link   
I'm confused... So does that mean that Pee-Wee actually said, "I meant to do that" 2 - 10 seconds before he ran his bike into the curb???





posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:23 PM
link   
reply to post by Freenrgy2
 



EVERYTHING you do is a choice and you don't make a choice that has not or is not influenced by some external factor or CAUSE. Can you make a decision, any decision, completely free of ANY external cause? You can't. And, because of this one simple truth, the definition of free will becomes a contradictory phrase.


Ya exactly and people do not really understand that. And its not that they cant understand it its because they have conditioned themselves or been conditioned by external sources to not understand it. Its all a very contradictory phrase. But hey what isn't at its core merely a contradiction.



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:31 PM
link   

Originally posted by RAY1990
So we do not have freewill but we have freedom of choice concerning our will?

Is that not freewill? I mean I can understand the reasoning that free will is something by definition, would be a decision with absolutely no outside influence if I'm getting this right?

But then nothing is in existence without outside influence is it?

So in other words if I was in a room with an innumerous amount of objects and I could freely choose one my subconscious would have already made my choice before I'd even looked at the items available?

I can kind of agree with that but what if my conscious decides I'll take no item or all of them, would my subconsciousness already have came up with that idea before I consciously jumped to that said idea? then at the end of the day the weighing up of the options... is that not something I decide to do consciously?

Very thought provoking Op Starred and Flagged
edit on 2-5-2013 by RAY1990 because: (no reason given)


You raise the question that most use to legitimize the concept of free will. Sure, you are FREE (i.e. not restricted) to make choices, but the freedom to make choices does not constitute free will. If you WILL something, can you do so in the context that the choice you make, has not been influenced or caused for you to make that choice at that particular time. In order for you to absolute FREE WILL, you must me able to make choices without them having been caused for you to have made them in the first place.



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:32 PM
link   
reply to post by TheBandit795
 

Perhaps too broad a stroke was used here to describe the intricate workings of our consciousness and the concept of free will. When describing the daily choices made by a majority of people in our society we are not left with much of a choice at all. Choosing either Pepsi or Coke is hardly a choice that can be used when discussing “Free Will”. I believe any consumer based choice is inadequate in proving whether we have free will or not. To further complicate this part of the issue, i.e. consumer products tied to emotional responses, there is the ability to manipulate people’s minds. I think this is an unfair assessment of the ‘free will’ concept.

Taking a closer look at what choices are available and how we choose I notice that there isn’t much choice after all. In our busy lives we don’t have time, nor actually want to spend time, to make a conscience- active choice about every decision there is to make. After all is it that important whether you drink Pepsi or Coke.

If you choose to go to college, get a job and buy a house, get married and have kids are you just following the cultural norm like a good little ‘sheeple’? Of course we could then choose not to do any of these things yet in that we are still making a choice based on what we think is the cultural norm. “A conformist is a rebel in their mind and a rebel is a conformist.” Here we can either choose to do something or choose to not do anything but either way we have still made a choice. This I also feel is unfair because the parameters are set to narrow.

I personally believe that we are all capable of free will. The question is Love. Not whether we should or should not choose to love someone, something or our Creator but in truth of love itself. If we all were made to do the right thing and love our Creator without question, without choice, than this corrupts love and therefore destroys it. This is NOT love!

In the ability to “Choose” to love or not, to make the choice yourself whether you wish to love your Creator or not, creates truth in this act. If you allow people to make their own decision pertaining to love then when they choose to love you it becomes something real, not a manipulation. It is with free will that Love therefore becomes true and this, I believe, is a very powerful statement.



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:36 PM
link   
reply to post by Xaphan
 




Here's something that we have to consider though. If it was proven beyond a doubt that all of the above were true, wouldn't that completely turn the legal system inside out? If there was no such thing as free will, and we weren't consciously making decisions, then technically nobody would be responsible for their actions, because the brain just randomly made those decisions and we couldn't do anything about it, because 'choice' is just an illusion.


Yes but there are other factors at work. Such as the factor that the justice system is not really there to dispense justice but more so there as a means of eliminating and containing those that do not fit the mold. So in the overall scope of things its just protecting the overall illusion. You see there are illusions withing illusions and even those are fighting among themselves to see which will be the one who is more predisposed and who literally will come out on top. Like memes they have a life of there own, and they also evolve with time and outside influence. So the justice system is not there to dispense justice it is more so there to keep things more or less stable among the many different programing and illusions and memes that people would have in there heads do to the fact that there is no such thing as free will really, they merely act upon there base programmings.



his would mean that we are basically nothing but complex organisms with a highly evolved brain... so highly evolved that we developed the ability to be introspective and see ourselves as unique individuals with distinct personalities, when in reality the brain is just a very clever computer.

And because its like you said the brain is just a very clever computer, but still just based on older programing, what is jail and the justice system and the whole reeducation of convicts if not just an attempt at reprogramming the old programs that inhabit there brain and mind...Do they have free will, no they do not. They don't even have much of a choice, they merely have the choices given to them. But that goes for both those both in the system and those outside the system running it. For a civilization of peoples to live and thrive there must be a sort of cohesion, and free will is rarely in the picture, there are choices sure. But the way people think that free will exists is merely just another form of programing and also a choice.



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:39 PM
link   

Originally posted by TheBandit795
Question: How many decisions do we make each day??? What do you guys think???
edit on 2-5-2013 by TheBandit795 because: (no reason given)


As many as required to make us believe that it was our decision to begin with.



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:46 PM
link   
Okay. Here is the deal - everyone has free will, as much of it as they would like, but sometimes it is easier to follow than to think for yourself (literally - it causes less conflict) and easier to maintain habits already formed.

1% free will? Is that what you said? Well, that is a lot, really, because that is how much someone is using their life in order to make changes to their habits, etc.

If you pump that up to 50%-75% free will, you might end up with a bit of instability - I've done that before.

You can access your free will quite easily by making lists of goals you wish to accomplish, and then get them done through action. If you are having trouble accomplishing a goal, then the next thing to do is break it down into smaller steps.

In the end, we have as much free will as we want to - I think what you are missing is that accessing too much of it at once can be somewhat unstable - therefore, we *choose* to access less of it.
edit on 2-5-2013 by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:48 PM
link   
reply to post by Mizzijr
 




What is described here is the LAW of Cause and Effect. Nothing escapes the principle of Cause and Effect, but there are many planes of Causation. We have free will as we know it, the problem is that many of us can't understand or comprehend the 'cause' in which we are affected by. Therefore we have a limited amount of choices in which we can 'effect' the situation at hand.

One way to look at it I suppose, another would be that the law of cause and effect is like a vast ocean that has existed long before we were here and will be here long before we are gone. So we are not freely choosing our decision we are merely reacting to outside forces and stimulants given our choices within the vastness of the ocean known as cause and effect. We are not choosing so much more as we are reacting, much like an animal would react to a fire, or a predator, is that really free will? No it is not, it is merely and like you said the law of cause and effect. And our choices are limited to those scopes which bind us to the mortal coil. We do not have free will, we have a cumulative effect usually over long periods of time on the overall aspect of cause and effect.



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:48 PM
link   

Originally posted by Freenrgy2

Originally posted by RAY1990
So we do not have freewill but we have freedom of choice concerning our will?

Is that not freewill? I mean I can understand the reasoning that free will is something by definition, would be a decision with absolutely no outside influence if I'm getting this right?

But then nothing is in existence without outside influence is it?

So in other words if I was in a room with an innumerous amount of objects and I could freely choose one my subconscious would have already made my choice before I'd even looked at the items available?

I can kind of agree with that but what if my conscious decides I'll take no item or all of them, would my subconsciousness already have came up with that idea before I consciously jumped to that said idea? then at the end of the day the weighing up of the options... is that not something I decide to do consciously?

Very thought provoking Op Starred and Flagged
edit on 2-5-2013 by RAY1990 because: (no reason given)


You raise the question that most use to legitimize the concept of free will. Sure, you are FREE (i.e. not restricted) to make choices, but the freedom to make choices does not constitute free will. If you WILL something, can you do so in the context that the choice you make, has not been influenced or caused for you to make that choice at that particular time. In order for you to absolute FREE WILL, you must me able to make choices without them having been caused for you to have made them in the first place.


This isn't a question I need answered...the subject matter produces its own brand of origami (just have a look at the posts)...

"you must be able to make choices without them having been caused for you to have made them in the first place"

This statement assumes someone else "made them in the first place"...who made them?...and how do you arrive at a conclusion that really is self-fulfilling (denying the influence of your own thought, and therefore responsibility)...

Utter garbage...

A99



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 05:55 PM
link   
reply to post by darkbake
 


Also, there seems to always be a shift in society from believing in determinism and fate to believing in free will. In my opinion, a lot of that is dependent on how closed-minded the society is -

So if you have a society that believes in determinism, it is quite likely that they punish people for deviating from the norm.



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 06:00 PM
link   

Originally posted by darkbake
reply to post by darkbake
 


Also, there seems to always be a shift in society from believing in determinism and fate to believing in free will. In my opinion, a lot of that is dependent on how closed-minded the society is -

So if you have a society that believes in determinism, it is quite likely that they punish people for deviating from the norm.


Well spotted! I like it...

A99



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 06:01 PM
link   
reply to post by akushla99
 


"you must be able to make choices without them having been caused for you to have made them in the first place"

Well, if anyone is interested, they can check out my thesis paper on a Quantum Theory of Mind in order to see the mechanisms of free will.

A Mathematical Evaluation of Consciousness

The whole purpose of this was to show that we do, in fact, make choices outside of causality. Now let's say you act in a certain way based on habits you have formed - well, you probably made a choice when you made that habit in the first place.

If you didn't, then maybe you are learning from someone else who used free will earlier in history.

If the habit isn't working, you might revisit it and edit it, using your will, and then let it rest.

The same thing happens when we learn any new skill - for example, throwing a baseball - we use free will to decide how to throw it, and then our brain stores the information, and eventually based on our experiences, we end up coming to a point where we throw the baseball a certain way...

Which was influenced by our free will (who we will to be) and also the effects of the environment. If a new situation arises, and we are exposed to a new and improved way to throw a baseball, we might examine this and then add it to our function.

In addition, if we wish to, we might brainstorm (use our free will) new ideas of how to throw the baseball. Or, we could throw the baseball however the hell we want to, regardless of how effective it is, in order to develop some kind of creative and stylish baseball-throwing super technique no-jitsu with no regard to the environment or the results.

Notice that a lot of riskier behavior happens in youth - this would be because the youth wants to discover ways to be the best he or she can be without restraint from the outdated views of his or her parents - then, when the youth grows older and is comfortable enough, he or she will begin to relax and not feel the need to be as rebellious.
edit on 2-5-2013 by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 06:07 PM
link   

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by TheBandit795
 


That's like sitting in a boat and looking down through the water at a sunken boat and a sandbar and saying, "Hey, those look like the same shapes and sizes. They must both be boats!" Similarly, an MRI only picks up similar patterns that we interpret as being related to one another, when in reality, they might simply be different thoughts that triggered comparable emotional reactions or conjured similar impressions within us.


True and how do they know that everybody has the same similar pattern going on at any given time? Or when running the same experiment. They ultimately do not, and like all experiments they must first have a preconceived notion of what will happen, in which case just means that free will does not exist. And to go off to another page or as the double split experiment showed, it does not exist like we think it does, yet it is influenced by it. Observer is observed. But yes the experiment may give them a better overall paradigm as to the fact of just how far the subconscious is involved in our waking world, and the fact that they told them what to do and at what time may bring out the same sort of patterns in there brain scans.

But ultimately they do not really know if those patterns actually mean the same thing in every single human, or most especially outside of a controlled environment. What the experiment shows is that in a controlled environment with the subjects consent there subconscious reacts much faster even before they reach conscious state, 10 s faster to be exact. But that really is nothing new, sports athletes and martial artists have been doing it for ages, its called being able to read your opponent on and unconscious level long before he makes a move, or No-Mind to zen practitioners. Or as they say now a days, to impose your will upon your opponent which you hear a lot in the professional fight world, and ultimately its all the same thing only expressed differently. Which again just shows that free will is not quite like people think it to be.



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 06:11 PM
link   
reply to post by TheBandit795
 


To me this is a very interesting question. I've often felt that our thoughts and actions are not so much things that "we do" as they are things that "happen to us", or maybe just things we observe "from inside" as they play out.

Thanks for posting.



posted on May, 2 2013 @ 06:12 PM
link   

Originally posted by darkbake
reply to post by akushla99
 


"you must be able to make choices without them having been caused for you to have made them in the first place"

Well, if anyone is interested, they can check out my thesis paper on a Quantum Theory of Mind in order to see the mechanisms of free will.

A Mathematical Evaluation of Consciousness

The whole purpose of this was to show that we do, in fact, make choices outside of causality. Now let's say you act in a certain way based on habits you have formed - well, you probably made a choice when you made that habit in the first place.

If the habit isn't working, you might revisit it and edit it, using your will, and then let it rest.

The same thing happens when we learn any new skill - for example, throwing a baseball - we use free will to decide how to throw it, and then our brain stores the information, and eventually based on our experiences, we end up coming to a point where we throw the baseball a certain way...

Which was influenced by our free will (who we will to be) and also the effects of the environment. If a new situation arises, and we are exposed to a new and improved way to throw a baseball, we might examine this and then add it to our function.

In addition, if we wish to, we might brainstorm (use our free will) new ideas of how to throw the baseball. Or, we could throw the baseball however the hell we want to, regardless of how effective it is, in order to develop some kind of creative and stylish baseball-throwing super technique no-jitsu with no regard to the environment or the results.
edit on 2-5-2013 by darkbake because: (no reason given)
edit on 2-5-2013 by darkbake because: (no reason given)


This whole FREE WILL debate is tiresome...the reality is, people have extremely bad memories of choices they have made...it's far easier to produce an excuse for why you are in the predicament you are in that blames someone else...

Read all the books, seen the movie, got the dvd...it's not rocket surgery!

Cheers

A99





new topics
top topics
 
80
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join