You don't have Free Will.

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posted on May, 3 2013 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by sulaw
 


Yes there is still a choice. It's primarily done unconsciously. But take note of what I said earlier. We don't have free will in the way we define free will to be. We make choices, but those choices are almost always made before we are even aware of them.


I think you are completely correct. I have thought this way for a long time.

We are preprogrammed by our brains - our physiology our genes [ DNA ] - we are impelled to respond as our biological machinary dictates.

BUT - superseding this biological machine is the life that animates the 'robot' - now it is at that level where real choices and free will occur.

We can choose to connect with the life force or to not connect with the life force.

It has nothing what so ever to do with our brains or IQ ..

for example a small child , a dog and most animals are brimming with life, with spirit.

We are NOT our body we are NOT our personality .


edit on 3-5-2013 by HelenConway because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 3 2013 @ 03:33 PM
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reply to post by TheBandit795
 


I've been saying this for more than thirty years that there is no free will. We are simply meat puppets, vehicles if you will for whatever purpose was intended. Personally, I think we're in a virtual reality prison, a 4D movie of sorts where we simply occupy characters over and over again, wasting time or maybe even learning something while we ride out our sentences. A rather depressing view I realize, but maybe the true reality is even more depressing than this fake one.

Cheers - Dave



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by bbracken677
True enough, but we have not been "creating" as long as nature has been.

What will we be capable of in a couple billion years if we survive and are left to our own devices?

This is why the thought of alien beings from outer space trip me out...they are just as likely to be millions of years ahead of us, technologically speaking, as they are just a couple of thousand years...in fact they are probably more likely to be hundreds of thousands of years ahead of us than just a couple thousand.

It totally boggles my mind thinking about what that would mean....look at the advances in technology in just the last 100 years. Or just the last 50 years...


Might also consider the social aspect of things. When we look a thousand or so years into our past we consider our way of life barbaric and brutal. If alien beings thousands of years ahead of us were to land, what would they think of us? Not speaking technologically, but from the social aspect would they look at us as we look at the Romans and Egyptians? Would they consider us callous and brutal?

Imagine if you were an alien living as you do today on another planet and had the capability to visit earth as it was a thousand years ago. Would you even say hello knowing that there's a good chance they'd just consider you un-roman and therefore villify, capture and enslave you?



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 03:51 PM
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we do have free will, it's just that in the material world in some societies you may not or it may seem like you don't, but you have the power, you control your reality and if you do not like your situation then change it.

move to another country or get some land be self sufficient away from the system, etc.etc.etc.


we are all free spiritual beings, free sovereign beings..claim your rights.



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 04:33 PM
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We all have free will.

I think some people act like we dont so they wont have to take responsibility for their actions or feel guilty when they do something morally corrupt.

Aw.. em.. atheists (coughing)



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by Symbiot

Might also consider the social aspect of things. When we look a thousand or so years into our past we consider our way of life barbaric and brutal. If alien beings thousands of years ahead of us were to land, what would they think of us? Not speaking technologically, but from the social aspect would they look at us as we look at the Romans and Egyptians? Would they consider us callous and brutal?

Imagine if you were an alien living as you do today on another planet and had the capability to visit earth as it was a thousand years ago. Would you even say hello knowing that there's a good chance they'd just consider you un-roman and therefore villify, capture and enslave you?


Yeah...I didnt even want to get into that. Generally society has changed with technology. Not going to say for better or for worse, but it is different.

We believe our society today is better and more progressive (from strictly a societal standard) but we are also looking at it through our own trained perceptions. Is our society truly better than say, the societies of the North American Indians? Is our way truly better than that of the Incas? What about Ancient Greek society?

I am not so sure we have advanced so much as just adapted to a more technological environment.

If we continue on our current trends will we become totally cut off from others except via whatever media is predominant in any point in our future? Will we become a society of hermits? Our needs provided for according to our skills and no real need to enter the "real world"?



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 05:48 PM
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reply to post by TheBandit795
 


Hell I DON'T ! .......... I Am My OWN Flesh And Blood Human Being Created by a SUPREME Being........ who Loves Me So Much , that it has Given me the Opportunity to Experience in this Physical World, a Unique Existance that Allows me to Explore the MANY POSSIBILITIES my Imagination can Conceive in the " Long Run " of REAL TIME . It Will Also Eventually Lead Me to ENLIGHTENMENT If I Gain WISDOM , The SOURCE Of ALL Things..........FREE WILL is FREE For That Reason Alone other than being a Controled Meat Machine on this Effed Up Backwater Planet ............WORD ...
edit on 3-5-2013 by Zanti Misfit because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 06:29 PM
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All right, I have to add a bit more to this topic. As a psychology major, I once did a research project where we had people answer what they would do in certain situations. There was a significant correlation between guys using duality (this situation I always do this, while in this situation I always do that) while girls almost always answered "It depends on the situation."

This shows that guys and girls use free will differently... a girl is not going to be a functional thinker - she is going to be aware of her environment and make decisions possibly based on experience, but generally has a lot of free will active at once.

A guy, meanwhile, will be using functions to determine his actions and therefore not have as much free will available at any one moment in time - however, this also allows him to act regardless of the environment in certain situations and have more natural resolve.

In addition, I have gay friends who think like girls, and I think like a girl sometimes as well. It would be interesting to see what kind of genders were used in the study -

A lot of times, women are not used in psychology studies for that very reason - they aren't affected by them as easily.



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 06:31 PM
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reply to post by darkbake
 


In addition, the amygdala has been flagged by friends from my psychology courses as a possible source of this gender thought process difference.

Check here: Wikipedia: Amygdala and Sexual Orientation

When it comes to psychology, I tend to know what I'm talking about most of the time as I continue to study the subject matter.
edit on 3-5-2013 by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 06:33 PM
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reply to post by Zanti Misfit
 


What if you were told you are going to die in a car crash tomorrow, how, when where and why it will happen?

If you choose to stay home, and live, you have made a choice you did not have, you have truly exercised free will, and you would be shocked to know just how rare that opportunity is. If you choose to ignore it, and dismiss it as a prank, or whatever, and you drive, make all of your predetermined choices, and die... You will have completed your destiny. Cheating destiny comes with real consequences.

Choose wisely.




posted on May, 3 2013 @ 06:37 PM
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reply to post by TheBandit795
 


Were you compelled to make the OP in this thread to tell us that we don't have free will?



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 06:38 PM
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Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by TheBandit795
 


Were you compelled to make the OP in this thread to tell us that we don't have free will?


Maybe he was destined to do it?



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by bbracken677
Yeah...I didnt even want to get into that. Generally society has changed with technology. Not going to say for better or for worse, but it is different.

We believe our society today is better and more progressive (from strictly a societal standard) but we are also looking at it through our own trained perceptions. Is our society truly better than say, the societies of the North American Indians? Is our way truly better than that of the Incas? What about Ancient Greek society?

I am not so sure we have advanced so much as just adapted to a more technological environment.

If we continue on our current trends will we become totally cut off from others except via whatever media is predominant in any point in our future? Will we become a society of hermits? Our needs provided for according to our skills and no real need to enter the "real world"?


I agree, for instance 'western civilization' is essentially Rome/Ancient Greece with more complex technology. However; some societal standards have evolved without the influence of technology. Where in Rome watching murder for sport was a cherished past time today watching murder for sport isn't something that one might consider an acceptable practice, but watching someone get beaten to within an inch of their life is. So things in that arena have improved by about an inch.

I also agree that as technology continues to connect the world we seem to be using it to distance ourselves from one another. I suppose it's not a question of right or wrong here, but why do people want to distance themselves from one another? Personally I think they're generally distrustful and afraid of one another, they'd rather not see each other at all if possible. It can take quite a bit for someone to begin to trust and accept another and even then it can take very little for that someone to be pushed back away. I think that as we grow and have more experience dealing with people we tend to become more distrustful of them. I wouldn't imagine many would understand that quite as well as those who frequent ATS.

I know people are sometimes referred to as mindless zombies and in truth there is something to that sentiment. In a zombie movie they're usually defined as having been reduced to their most basic instinct, which is to feed. I, on the other hand, would define it slightly different. Rather than the instinct to feed they've been reduced to something more basic, the instinct to survive which encompasses the reason why we need to eat. In today's society one is pretty much on their own in terms of survival and when push comes to shove the people will step over their own grandmother if it means a greater chance at survival. People need to spend the vast majority of their time figuring out how to stay 'afloat' so to speak, if their ship starts to sink they'll do whatever it takes to bring it back into fighting shape, even if that means to lie, cheat and steal.

As a result we grow distrustful of those who are most likely just trying to use us in their own effort to survive. The more we find that others are taking advantage of us the more we desire to keep people at a distance.

P.S. Another good example of how things have improved since Rome. While in Rome they had slaves who had to work for their superiors, but were provided with bottom of the barrel food and crappy housing today we have the lower class who are actually paid for their labor, but just enough to afford bottom of the barrel food and crappy housing.
edit on 3-5-2013 by Symbiot because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 06:53 PM
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Thats all a matter of perspective.

Sure there are some things I may not have total control over. Though the number of choices I can make compared to the ones I cannot are drastically different from day to day.



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 07:14 PM
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If free will is untrue then determinism must be true.
If determinism is the deciding factor then my thoughts
are determined by the micro-particles at work in my
chemical mind, my brain, the electrochemical
impulses are what determines my thoughts.

Since truth is an now just an meaningless term and
definition. A subjective idea that is not objective or measurable
then how can I know and believe that determinism is true and that
free will is untrue.

How can I ever know which thought is true and which is not?

Oh relativity, subjective determinism right.

Then if you say that determinism is true that is just what
the electrochemical microparticules impose upon you to
think believe and say.

I think that free will is equally true, because, according
to you that is what my electrochemical impulses impose upon me to believe.

you cannot have it both ways, as the mere fact that you and
I have different thoughts and ideas, proves that determinism is incorrect.



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by vethumanbeing
 


Question beg.
All information is good information...
A question easily dodged...Of what use is information? (...and it matters not whether you 'believe' the free will illusion or non-illusion, in any form you choose to accept it
[presumably using some other fabled 'agent' within the construct of phsychological and chemical processes - 'Anyone can make up any crap and make it sound legit'])...

If any are of the opinion that the information is there to be unmanipulated, subconsciously massaged by ethereal ghost-in-a-machine type forces (that are as little understood by 'white coated's' and the lay man), and that the information (essentially of feedback-loop nature)...has no goal/purpose (...and this somehow independant of preferences, choices, will)...you are quite FREE to accept this...and 'stuff' will happen TO you...therebey removing any responsibility, through the freedom to CHOOSE...

Talk about painting themselves into a corner...and saying, 'it was because of the walls, that I'm in the corner...'...'and I didn't make the walls, so it's not of my choosing...'...

A99
edit on 3-5-2013 by akushla99 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 08:31 PM
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Oh man, I was in the midst if a long, well-thought-out (I think) post when my phone died and lost it all. Short on time now, but I plan to come back and read more on this (excellent, by the way) post later, and will add the "full version" of what I had intended to post. I'll give the quickie here. By the way, this very incident with the dying phone is an example of the competing power of Will which is my angle on the topic "free will." I had the will to write it all at the time, but now that I have to start over, I don't have the Will to do it - at least not now ; )

Basically, we have "unlimited" Will, but, not only do we have to harness it, our Will also has to compete against the Will of everything else. Natural forces, other people, our own history (collected experience, memories, subconscious thoughts.) The strength of one's will, for any given thing, can both be partially derived from this "unconscious autopilot" as well as interfered with, but can also overcome it. "Collective Will", can also work against one's own Will, or, one can be in sync with a collective Will.

In other times, other cultures, or even to this day among some individuals, the principles of Will are essentially what "magic" is. The things one manifests, whether a physical thing, a change in consciousness (for the worker or the observer) or whatever, may appear as a collection of tasks reaching a strategic objective to some, "magic" - using the force of Will to others. Something considered to be a near-impossible feat typically takes an extraordinary amount of Willpower. It is, in our typical terms, also known as desire and effort. The Will, is the driving force behind those things.



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 08:43 PM
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This was a very interesting read and I like the fact that you used ongoing research to back up what you were saying. Well thought out. However, I am going to have to respectfully disagree. I would first like to say that (if you haven't already) check out Rene Descartes. He was a 17 th century philosopher. He was also the one that said "I think; therefore I am" and "I am a thinking thing". Anyway, I would also like to point out that we are affected on a subconscious level by many different stimuli and I am not denying that. What I am saying is that we receive all of this input from outside sources and it can have an effect on how we see a situation or if we think something is right or wrong. This does not mean that the input that we received is directly responsible for the outcome. It is simply a factor in the formula that we use in the decision making process. At the end of the day, if you decide that breaking into the FED is not a good idea, you make the choice to not do it because you have come to the conclusion (with help from some stimuli) that it is a bad idea. In the end, you decide (consciously) to do something or not to.
Good post though.



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by akushla99
reply to post by vethumanbeing
 


Question beg.
All information is good information...
A question easily dodged...Of what use is information? (...and it matters not whether you 'believe' the free will illusion or non-illusion, in any form you choose to accept it
[presumably using some other fabled 'agent' within the construct of phsychological and chemical processes - 'Anyone can make up any crap and make it sound legit'])...

If any are of the opinion that the information is there to be unmanipulated, subconsciously massaged by ethereal ghost-in-a-machine type forces (that are as little understood by 'white coated's' and the lay man), and that the information (essentially of feedback-loop nature)...has no goal/purpose (...and this somehow independant of preferences, choices, will)...you are quite FREE to accept this...and 'stuff' will happen TO you...therebey removing any responsibility, through the freedom to CHOOSE...

Talk about painting themselves into a corner...and saying, 'it was because of the walls, that I'm in the corner...'...'and I didn't make the walls, so it's not of my choosing...'...


Apparently those responding to the tenent 'You dont have Free will" are the concern points, interesting only in the defense of it (or having to do so). I replied so did you. All information is INFORMATION ONLY that is all, you determine if any of it applies to you to enable you to change move in another direction or fracture into small pieces your parents. The interesting thing about free will is the degree of belief in it. Complete freewill allows without impunity you to do as you will/wilt and as long as you do not doubt your self determined actions ;you are moving in motion towards a goal. Here is the problem, keep the moral aspect out of it; just the truth in intent (whether you transgress to evil intent or a godly intent) is of no matter, its the trajectory of pure thought and its intended outcome that matters most, good or evil. The problem with the Universal structure is that it is energy, has no emotional (hormonal) encombrances. The God (MORAL STRUCTURE) GRID OVERLAY upon Universal Field thoughtforms is wrongly intended. What the Ideaform God construct is trying to do is take the fractal beauty of Chaos and box it. God/Jesus/Budda is a human psychological INSERT concieved by humans because they fear the UNIVERSE THE UNKNOWN (that thing that may kill them) Cannot understand why? Freewill in its purist form would allow you to commit murder and be absolved of it. There are degrees, which makes absolutely NO SENSE as in your nieghbor having the same freewill may steal your hummingbird feeders and might die for that action. I suppose freewill stops at the moment you have to serve behind bars your death penalty sentence. Freewill is supposed to be self-determinism that can result in different results; that does not mean you should EXERCISE IT.
edit on 3-5-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 3 2013 @ 11:22 PM
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reply to post by Sleytek
 


In reply to Sleytek, Page 13, it kind of seems like what you and the OP are saying aren't really in disagreement, but rather simply looking at this from two different perspectives. That said, I believe that, yes, the ultimate decision is yours to make, but, different people have differing degrees of strength of Will (and even that, varying at different times and situations.)

Let's take a situation whose risk to one's health & life are slightly less severe than robbing a Fed Reserve bank, but with a prodigous force of Will encouraging, rather than discouraging the act to more easily illustrate my point: eating "food" from McDonald's.

The marketing spend of McDonald's is absolutely extraordinary, and targeted heavily toward African Americans and children. Children are further exposed to the Willpower of McDonald's by being invited to birthday parties of thir friends whose parents feed them McD's and choose to have their birthday parties there. The "food" is known by most to be terrible for you and laced with dangerous, carcinogenic and mutagenic chemicals, yet the vast majority of Americans still choose to eat it. Who wants to eat it the most? Percentage-wise, i've seen plenty of studies showing a disproportionately high percentage of African Americans and children want to eat McD's regularly. This is because the Willpower of McD's marketing is working much stronger against theirs. Its an equation - how much Will do you have? - how much will does the opposing force of Will have? Whichever is greater wins.

Most situations have many, many factors, but that is the simple form of it. So why do some fall prey to the dark allure of the PinkSlime Patty and others don't? They have, as you describe, their own set of thought patters, filters, etc., by which they measure McDonald's. Some simply don't care that it is bad quality and toxic, some have life experiences which make what is presented in the advertising alluring to them, and some surely a myriad of other reasons which cause them to not put up the force of Will to resist the McD. That fits your point and the OP's. Those background things in their mind, calculating which decision to make, is their decision - but that decision IS calculated mostly subconsciously, as a function of their own mind's filter, which is composed of a lifetime of experiences, outside influences, etc. Still, the person whose decision is always "I'm lovin' It! - McD's 15 times a week!" can one day decide they don't want to eat it anymore, and will need to muster up a strong batch of willpower to resist their subconscious, autopilot decision, the Will of their work buddies who decide to do lunch at McD's that day, the commercials in the radio they'll hear on their way to work, the billboards, and the banner ads that start showing up everywhere after they've googled "do McNuggets really have bubonic plague as the #3 ingredient?"





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