You don't have Free Will.

reply to post by supergravity


To a certain extent yes, reality does kinda of bend to our needs. Then there are times, it will just say "O HELL NO".
I was never much into believing that "Secret" bullcrap, & I will assure reality quite solid, I will assure on that one.


"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."- Einstein.

Einstein may have been one first believers that reality is very similar to a hologram, which to some extent is true.

reply to post by TauCetixeta

Do you think souls know all the answers?

Do you think all answers will come after you die?

I dont think so.

Yes we return to our spiritual home but it doesnt mean that you are given these answers.

And as a soul the question of free will also remains.

So, yeah, i do believe in reincarnation, but reincarnation, the existence of a soul, body after body, they dont solve this question.

Originally posted by Manula
reply to post by TauCetixeta

 

Do you think souls know all the answers?

Do you think all answers will come after you die?

I dont think so.

Yes we return to our spiritual home but it doesnt mean that you are given these answers.

And as a soul the question of free will also remains.

So, yeah, i do believe in reincarnation, but reincarnation, the existence of a soul, body after body, they dont solve this question.

edit on 3-5-2013 by Manula because: (no reason given)

You will remember your past lives just as soon as you die.

Your veil of forgetfulness helps you accomplish your mission in THIS life.

Practice awareness - be 'aware' of your subconscious' desire to control its surroundings. Duh,

Second line.

reply to post by TheBandit795


OCD was the perfect example.

Forget addictions for a second, and lets concentrate on OCD. As someone WITH OCD, what happens is a specific thought intrudes into consciousness. According to the no free will hypothesis, the power of this thought, since it possesses the probabilistic advantage, should always determine which thought I choose to entertain.

Perhaps having not experienced an obsession which would qualify as a "OCD" makes it hard for you to understand. At times (in my most stressed moments), I can't see anything other than the thought, and I can't feel anything other than the feeling which supports the thought. And yet, at those moments, I am able to summon the awareness that "I am not my brain", or, "I am not predetermined". At these times, I am utterly amazed at the minds ability to push itself out of a negative state into a positive state through sheer force of will (and belief!).

Belief is such an interesting thing. In the Bible, the Lord says to Moses "not by bread alone doth man live, but from the word which comes from the mouth of the Lord". This is interesting, because this statement occurs after God decides to feed the Israelites with manna. The Hebrew translation of Manna, the "food" which the Lord decides to feed the Israelites instead of food, derives from the word "emunah", belief, or faith.

This anecdote was not mentioned to glorify the Bible, but to emphasize the place that belief has had in primitive religion. Perhaps WE are the ones who are naive, who doubt our abilities? And perhaps this pervasive doubt, affects each of us, each of us who exist in a wider context - the collective human consciousness - in ways we just don't appreciate.

I do not for one second deny that physical addictions are just as hard, or perhaps harder, than someone who is dealing with OCD. Heroin addiction, or any opiate addiction, can be gruelling: and it is grueling because the body has become inured to a state where an exogenous agent has come to replace normally produced neurochemicals like GABA. Take away the heroin, and suddenly its as if you've been thrown into the depths of hell. The bodies response to it's pain receptors being "blocked" by the heroin causes the glia cells to release more chemicals that sensitize neurons to pain reception. In short, the brain tries to outdo the effects of the heroin. This is the cause of tolerance. And this is why heroin addicts experience mind-boggling physical pain after they quit cold-turkey: their sensitivity to pain has been increased manifold times in order to counter the effect of the heroin.

Drug addiction like this is in a category of its own, and I don't mean to say that such people are merely "weak" willed. The mind-body connection works both ways. The mind can influence the body, and the body can influence the mind. In this most radical of examples, the bodies powers have been amped up, so much so that only the most disciplined of minds could overcome the addiction without recourse to methadone etc.

I rather figured it common knowledge that our environment has a major influence over our actions. For instance I tend to be more lethargic on rainy days than on warm sunny days and seasonal depression associated with winter has been known for a good while. You know the old phrase music soothes the savage beast and to be honest I do find that various different types of music can alter my mood, I mean I don't generally feel like dancing when I hear Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, but something a little more upbeat can certainly get my heart pumping faster.

Don't forget to factor in the food we consume, the digestive process consumes a lot of energy and I find myself rather tired after eating something heavy like a good steak or pork chop. Obviously the energy returns at some point, but during the bulk of the digestive process heavy foods make me really tired which has a big impact on the decisions I make throughout my entire life. For instance, hypothetically, I could've chosen to eat a half sandwich and soup for lunch, but instead chose to have a large burrito which significantly lowered my energy levels. A friend called me up to get some basketball going, but I declined because I just wasn't up for expelling that amount of energy. This has an effect on the rest of my decisions throughout my life. Instead of playing basketball I took a nap and so I had trouble getting to sleep at my scheduled time and woke up the next morning having had a poor nights sleep. Lethargic and slow I wasn't terribly productive at work causing me to work late the next three days in order to play catch up. Obviously had I went with the soup and a sandwich the events and choices over the next few days would've been quite different.

Our environment has always played a major role in our decision making, however we don't really factor this in to the way we run our lives. At work we are expected to be the same in December as we are in June, but this doesn't account for the reality of being human. We are not the same in December as we are in June and we are not the same on Tuesday morning as we are on Thursday afternoon. The scheduled life doesn't factor in what a human is or how a human works, instead the scheduled life tries to tell the human what to be rather than accept what the human already is.

As a side note I wouldn't expect that knowledge of these types of influences could be used effectively by people to influence masses of others. People are very different from one another and react different to various forms of stimuli, where some might find the image of a beach positive others have a deep fear of the ocean or perhaps even had a traumatic childhood experience associated with the beach. These little variances would prevent anyone from trying to use these stimulants and depressants intelligently against others.

Originally posted by slugger9787
So is the opposite of "free will" determinism?

Yes, because determinism means that you can deduce future outcome from present conditions. This would mean that things are predetermined and that our will is not free.

Are you talking about perfect determinism or just a form of local or limited determinism? Perfect determinism means there's ABSOLUTELY no free will. Everything is set from the first moment of the universe and nothing can alter its course. Limited determinism means that the future is only somewhat predictable.

I've used super-determinism is prior posts. I used the word wrongly, though. Super-determinism means that while there's perfect determinism, it's impossible for us to ever measure the inner workings of the universe and so thus we cannot predict the future with certainty. Super-determinism, as a theory, has been mostly disproven. However, I'm not sure if that's because there's no perfect determinism or if that's because we can measure the inner owrkings of the universe. My suspicion is that it's because there's no perfect determinism.

There's a reverse side to it. Since we cannot predict our future with certainty because there's no perfect determinsm, this means that while we have the ability to freely choose, we cannot ensure that our choices are good ones simple because we're unable to predict future outcomes with certainty. This means that our free will is somewhat unreliable because it will sometimes produce bad results.

For example, if i make a choice that has an 80% chance of producing good results then it's basically a good choice. However, it'll never be 100%, so my ability to decide is constrained.

There's also the issue that none of us are separate from the forces around us. Our choices are constrained by our environment which also includes our brain and body. Even if we have the ability to freely choose from the array of choices allotted to us, this is not true freedom since there's a limited number of them. Limited time and resources means we can't overcome some problems.

So I can rephrase all that by saying So is our inseparable connection with our environment the opposite of free will? See what I did there?

What's free will even in the presence of limited determinism if we're only given a limited number of choices determined by constraints in our mind and in our environment?

The point is to say that even limited determinism means our will is not completely free, even absent of the other things I've brought up. Future projections are still present, they're just not perfect. So instead of projecting the future death of a person in a skiing accident at 87, they instead die in a car accident at 85 on their way to a skii resort. Even limited determinism is scary, right?

Bottom line, there's no FREE will. Just limited will, as I see it.

I like to imagine that there's determinism built into our universe, but it's put in check by a random number generator that's unhackable and linked to every particle in the universe. This small fluctuation in particle behavior is enough to prevent certain projections of the future universe. But of course reality is not exactly the same as what I imagine. But it's also similarly unpredictable.

Who really cares how it becomes unpredictable? In my mind, the details can be put aside, unless you're a scientist. A thoroughly unpredictable universe would be like a universe-sized slot machine. If there was no way to plan ahead or to project into the future, everything would be a wild gamble.

So on the one hand everything is a wild gamble and on the other everything is predetermined.

So I'll just recap the whole post:
Self (choices only regard the self) Environment (choices only regard the environment)
Chaos (choices are random) Predeterminism (choices are set from the very first moment)

reply to post by jonnywhite


It's a question of who's making the determination. We can allow the universe to guide our decisions, but we don't have to. As living creatures we are not rigid, but fluid in that we change along with the changes in nature. As the weather changes so too do we change with it, but we don't have to accept these changes. We may wish to sleep in on a cold rainy day, but we can still choose to choke down a 5 hour energy and over extend ourselves.

If one desires to sleep in why make the choice not to? This boils down to who's making the determination. We might want to sleep in, nature might be telling us that we should sleep in, but our boss is telling us to get out of bed and come to work. Who's more intelligent? The boss who has no idea what the future holds or nature which has survived for billions upon billions of years.

Free will? The choice is yours, who ya gonna listen to? In the recent Indian building collapse I understand that a few offices were evacuated before the collapse, but the clothing manufactures told their employees to remain at work. They died. If I worked there and saw others being evacuated I'd have been out of there like there was no tomorrow, but I don't take my orders from fools with dollar signs in their eyes.

I'm pretty sure it was a conscious decision to read this article, and respond accordingly. Sure most of our activity is automated; it has to be. We don't think "Go, Heart, Beat!"… 'Tis true, we have but a small window of perception and control. Best we make the most of it, not fret over the idea that we're little biological robots.

Something as simple as a bad dream, that you don't even remember, can not only affect your mood for the day, but can also affect your decision-making processes, your outlook, affect your health...etc. Hormonal changes in the body, completely natural, can have the same affect. Does a woman who commits suicide because she is suffering serious postpartum depression have complete freewill? Does a severely retarded individual have freewill? Do other primates have freewill?

Resisting the idea of non-freewill is also natural, in my opinion. Discovering that you may not be as completely in control of your actions as you think you are can be quite scary, can't it? But deny ignorance, right? There are many examples one could easily find in our behaviors, especially as a collective species, that show no question that freewill is a pipedream. We believe we aren't animal, yet we continue to do as we were genetically designed to do, without much thought or question as to why we do these things to begin with.

Originally posted by johnsequitur1221
I'm pretty sure it was a conscious decision to read this article, and respond accordingly. Sure most of our activity is automated; it has to be. We don't think "Go, Heart, Beat!"… 'Tis true, we have but a small window of perception and control. Best we make the most of it, not fret over the idea that we're little biological robots.

There is a bigger picture.

The fact that you acted to read this article and respond accordingly is irrelevant. The real questions here are why you chose to do those actions to begin with? Why would you seek out and socialize thoughts with other people? This is where you start to get to the meat of the issue, and why most people are misunderstanding this. But as I said, I believe it's fear that makes people resist this concept. Fear, an evolutionary device... human beings, and most other creatures I imagine, have a primal fear of lack of control.

reply to post by jheherrin


Why is your brain wired the way it is in the first place? We say that 2+2=4, but was it our choice that our brains are capable of understanding mathematics? Our brains evolved throughout the eons without a single conscious choice on our part. We talk about subliminal messages effecting our decisions, but what about the way the brain is formed in the first place? It was never up to us to decide how the brain works. It was never up to us to decide what constitutes a human being or how a human should act.

These choices were made by nature. Nature created the most advanced technology we've ever encountered, far more advanced than anything we've conceived. Nature created the human being without any help from us. Nature's creations are more advanced and far more complex than ours.

reply to post by jheherrin

How many times can a person say "I can't stop that from happening." and not let it impact their confidence or sense of security? This is why the whole "Stay positive!" thing is so big.

This is why we encourage people to change the world and not succumb to it.

Change what you can and don't fret about what you cannot change.

Recently, I've thought about the mass warfare just outside my house. Insects and creatures everywhere are eating each other and struggling to survive. The whole picture is very macabre if I try to imagine it. However, by imagining it and giving it attention in my mind, I am not changing the world, am I? Instead I am opening myself up to bleakness and a sense of powerlessness. This is how people lose focus and so others, in turn, say "Stay positive!" Or "Be constructive!"

A mind filled with this gloom and lack of security will be a victim, if not retrained. Some people say this is brain chemistry and can be cured with drugs. But which came first, the bad thought, or the brain chemistry? Sometimes I ask that question and I'm not certain others know. See, in my mind, it's plausible that a mind can train itself to be powerless and a victim to the world surrounding it.

Do people always persevere, no matter the environment? Say, I put everybody in the world in a nazi germany concentration camp where they're periodically tortured and executed and burned in chemicals. Will suicide rates stay low or will they increase, as a result? Do people have a tolerance for this? Is our will free -enough- to stay positive even when living in hell on earth?

reply to post by jonnywhite


The interesting thing is that no matter how 'macabre' one might consider nature animals still generally prefer the dangerous wild to the safety of captivity. Many animals in captivity are too depressed to mate and even go on rampages in an effort to break free and return to the wild. Most animals in captivity are not able to perform the actions they were designed to perform, they are not able to be themselves. The tiger doesn't want to be fed, he wants to hunt.

Some animals don't mind so much, depending on the type of captivity. Cats and dogs for instance. They seem to have been built for human companionship, but they still don't like it in the cage. There's an easy way to tell if the animal is suited to his environment. If he's depressed and going on shooting sprees then he's not in the right place.

reply to post by Symbiot

I agree that all creatures desire freedom. Given a choice between captivity and the wild, i think most animals choose to be wild. However, that doesn't mean the wild is not a form of torture too.

Maybe it's hte lesser of two evils, but it's not innocent, either. No matter how you slice it, it's warfare out there. We use civilization to shield ourselves, but even then we still spend trillions every couple of years to protect ourselves from ourselves. Chaos scares us and we hold tight to our rules and sense of decency, but it's all a facade because underneath we're still savage creatures.

And then, as you say, some creatures adapt to captivity and become domesticated, as cats and dogs have. When a creature is domesticated, it's eviscerated of survival knowledge and even if given the chance to be wild it probably will not survive. But as you state, cages seem to be a breaking point for creatures. Although many birds are known to like cages if the door is left open.

Originally posted by jonnywhite
reply to post by Symbiot

 

I agree that all creatures desire freedom. Given a choice between captivity and the wild, i think most animals choose to be wild. However, that doesn't mean the wild is not a form of torture too.

Maybe it's hte lesser of two evils, but it's not innocent, either.

And then, as you say, some creatures adapt to captivity and become domesticated, as cats and dogs have. When a creature is domesticated, it's eviscerated of survival knowledge and even if given the chance to be wild it probably will not survive. But as you state, cages seem to be a breaking point for creatures. Although many birds are known to like cages if the door is left open.

edit on 3-5-2013 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)

In respect to birds my brother's cat is the same way. She's perfectly content to hang out in a room, but she gets upset if the door is closed. She just wants to know that she can leave if she wants or needs to. She'll eat the food we put in her bowl, but she still goes crazy when she sees a bird or small mammal outside. She's fed well, but she still desires the thrill of the hunt. If it were up to me I'd let her go catch a few squirrels, that'd make my girlfriend happy too since squirrels can be a bit of a pest in her garden. She's my brother's cat though and he doesn't want her going outside.

Personally I wouldn't call the wild a form of torture, but I see what you're saying. I prefer to think of the wild as a well oiled machine that works exactly as it's supposed to, after all the ecosystem has survived and flourished far longer than any machine of our own creation. As far as humans are concerned we have the ability to modify our environment to a greater extent than any other animal and this suggests to me that we should use our talents to form our surroundings to meet our desires. At the same time I think it's important that we leave the door open. While I can form my surroundings to meet my desires, I don't think it good practice to place others in what I have created and close the door. We're all different and what works well for me probably doesn't work well for you so instead I'd say you're welcome into my environment, but feel free to leave at any time.

Actually,you do,to an extent.As long as you toe the party line.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by sulaw

 

Yes there is still a choice. It's primarily done unconsciously. But take note of what I said earlier. We don't have free will in the way we define free will to be. We make choices, but those choices are almost always made before we are even aware of them.

This just totally wigs me out.....

There is also some psych research related to the fact that we do not just have 1 brain / 2 halves...we have 2 brains that are connected and work independently of each other. Much research has been done regarding this and is just as spooky....

reply to post by TheBandit795


Now what if you were somehow given the ability to perceive those unconscious stimuli, and recognize them in your self as well?

People will seem a whole hell of a lot more robotic...

Originally posted by Symbiot
reply to post by jheherrin

 

Why is your brain wired the way it is in the first place? We say that 2+2=4, but was it our choice that our brains are capable of understanding mathematics? Our brains evolved throughout the eons without a single conscious choice on our part. We talk about subliminal messages effecting our decisions, but what about the way the brain is formed in the first place? It was never up to us to decide how the brain works. It was never up to us to decide what constitutes a human being or how a human should act.

These choices were made by nature. Nature created the most advanced technology we've ever encountered, far more advanced than anything we've conceived. Nature created the human being without any help from us. Nature's creations are more advanced and far more complex than ours.

edit on 3-5-2013 by Symbiot because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-5-2013 by Symbiot because: (no reason given)

True enough, but we have not been "creating" as long as nature has been.

What will we be capable of in a couple billion years if we survive and are left to our own devices?

This is why the thought of alien beings from outer space trip me out...they are just as likely to be millions of years ahead of us, technologically speaking, as they are just a couple of thousand years...in fact they are probably more likely to be hundreds of thousands of years ahead of us than just a couple thousand.

It totally boggles my mind thinking about what that would mean....look at the advances in technology in just the last 100 years. Or just the last 50 years...