U.S. Soldier might get Court Martial for being a Christian.

reply to post by Siberbat


Everything you have said is absolutely false. As I've already said in a previous post in this thread:

A Christian can pray at anytime, a Catholic can make the sign of the cross, a Muslim can bow to Mecca, a Pagan can cast a circle of Salt and call on the Elements etc., you just can't recruit. It's pretty simple. And yes when you sign up for the military, you are government property essentially... in other words you lose some of your rights and there isn't a soldier enlisted who hasn't been made aware of this reality.

Is it proselytization if another person approaches a soldier and asks them to share their faith? If the other person wants to hear and is interested, I don't see how this should be a problem.

No problem, as long as the government also charges atheists for spreading their viewpoint.

putrid theologyputrid theology

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by Siberbat

 

Everything you have said is absolutely false. As I've already said in a previous post in this thread:

A Christian can pray at anytime, a Catholic can make the sign of the cross, a Muslim can bow to Mecca, a Pagan can cast a circle of Salt and call on the Elements etc., you just can't recruit. It's pretty simple. And yes when you sign up for the military, you are government property essentially... in other words you lose some of your rights and there isn't a soldier enlisted who hasn't been made aware of this reality.

edit on 3-5-2013 by Kali74 because: (no reason given)

That is incorrect, you do not lose your rights while under military service. You still have the basic rights as any other US citizen. You cannot, however, make claims that the military supports your views, use military equipment to express those views, and use your uniform or rank to promote those views. That is where the restrictions come into play.

It is Wienstien, who is rabidly anti-christian, who has promoted anti-christian rhetoric. The fact he is focusing on one group is disturbing.

If these fundamentalist Christian monsters of human degradation, marginalization, humiliation and tyranny cannot broker or barter your acceptance of their putrid theology, then they crave for your universal silence in the face of their rapacious reign of theocratic terror. Indeed, they ceaselessly lust, ache, and pine for you to do absolutely nothing to thwart their oppression. Comply, my friends, and you, too, become as monstrously savage as are they. I beg you, do not feed these hideous monsters with your stoic lethargy, callousness and neutrality. Do not lubricate the path of their racism, bigotry, and prejudice. Doing so directly threatens the national security of our beautiful nation. - Micheal Wienstien Huffington Post (4-16-2013)

Notice all the psychological buzzwords in that quote. Is this what tolerance looks like? Is this what the DOD thinks about Christian soliders, saliors, airmen, and marines? He is the DOD religious advisor after all. How can this ideaology be defended much less supported? Keep in mind which groups have harmed the US the most in the last twelve years, but "christian monsters" "directly threatens national security".

reply to post by Siberbat

That is incorrect, you do not lose your rights while under military service. You still have the basic rights as any other US citizen.

Wrong when you join the military you become government property. You willfully give up many of your rights. The biggest one you give up is freedom of speech.

Keep in mind which groups have harmed the US the most in the last twelve years, but "christian monsters" "directly threatens national security".

Yes these Christian groups do threaten national security. They do it by going into Muslim nations and trying to convert the people there. This causes many problems a person would have to be blind not to see it.

reply to post by jessieg

Originally posted by jessieg
Is it proselytization if another person approaches a soldier and asks them to share their faith? If the other person wants to hear and is interested, I don't see how this should be a problem.

I don't think that would be a problem. Only if you try to recruit or convert. If they are interested and asking questions and you just answer the questions (and they don't complain about being harassed) I don't think it should be a problem either. If I were religious, I'd be REAL careful about it, though. I'd probably suggest they do research online or talk to a chaplain.

reply to post by rickymouse

Originally posted by rickymouse
No problem, as long as the government also charges atheists for spreading their viewpoint.

If soldiers try to recruit or convert others, no matter what their religious beliefs (or lack of same) I would hope the same rules apply.

reply to post by Siberbat


In looking up this issue I came across Weinstein, his wording is strong yes... but I can't say I disagree with him. I was raised Christian but I went to churches that were very open minded and embodied humility. I also family down in Alabama who are Evangelicals it is such a difference between how I understood Christianity and how they did. My family as much as I love them, outright offended me with their religious beliefs. Very in your face and is rampant throughout more than the South.

Yes you have religious rights in the military, nothing I said implies that you don't but there's rules on how you can express your faith and they apply to all faiths, the most basic is you cannot evangelize/proselytize to others. Those rules also protect Christians from being recruited/preached to by other faiths. Or perhaps you approve of a muslim/hindu/other CO making religion prominent within his command.

Originally posted by skorpius
I am not a religious person but after reading this. The U.S. is getting crazy. I would imagine over half the military is of some faith. Are they going to go after all religions now?


www.breitbart.com...

No, only the Christians because that's what our Islamic president wants. How else are you going to have an islamic state with so many Christians in it.

reply to post by skorpius


The Govt. isn't saying what you can,would,should,believe. They are saying if you are in the military you aren't allowed to proselytize or attempt to convert others. If you don't understand that simple concept then the discussion is over.

Originally posted by Fromabove

Originally posted by skorpius
I am not a religious person but after reading this. The U.S. is getting crazy. I would imagine over half the military is of some faith. Are they going to go after all religions now?


www.breitbart.com...

No, only the Christians because that's what our Islamic president wants. How else are you going to have an islamic state with so many Christians in it.

You do realize this law was in effect before this so called "Islamic" President ever took office right? And you obviously know nothing of the Constitution.

Originally posted by buster2010
reply to post by Siberbat

 

That is incorrect, you do not lose your rights while under military service. You still have the basic rights as any other US citizen.

Wrong when you join the military you become government property. You willfully give up many of your rights. The biggest one you give up is freedom of speech.

Keep in mind which groups have harmed the US the most in the last twelve years, but "christian monsters" "directly threatens national security".

Yes these Christian groups do threaten national security. They do it by going into Muslim nations and trying to convert the people there. This causes many problems a person would have to be blind not to see it.

edit on 3-5-2013 by buster2010 because: (no reason given)

Well buster, show me in the military code of justice that you "do not have basic constitutional rights" and that you are "government property". I would like to see you back your claims.

It wasn't a Christian who killed 13 of his battle buddies in Nov. 2009. In fact, the Ft. Hood shooter has not been to trial yet. So, buster, who is the real national security threat? A Christian who is exercising their faith, or a radicalized muslin who butchered 13 warriors? I agree, you would have to be blind to not see who the real threat is.

The Wienstien policy is specifically against Christian views, not Islamic views, Wiccan views, Jewish views, or Buddhist views. It is an attempt to prevent the outward practice of Christianity. I don't care what religion you are, to focus on one group instead of all groups is wrong. Even then, I would have a problem with that.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

Originally posted by smithjustinb
I understand the importance of keeping your beliefs to yourself, but should it really be a punishable crime? hell no.

To proselytize is to "induce someone to convert" or to recruit someone. Saying "I'm a Christian" is not proselytizing. One doesn't have to keep their beliefs to themselves. They just cannot try to convert or recruit someone else to their religion.

m/w proselytize

But thats what religious people do. its part of the religion.

reply to post by Siberbat

Well buster, show me in the military code of justice that you "do not have basic constitutional rights" and that you are "government property". I would like to see you back your claims.

While in uniform talk to and officer without calling him sir call him by his first name instead. Speak out against the war and hold a protest. Let's see how long you enjoy your freedom of speech. You may be able to do these things while in civilian clothing but not while in uniform. So you rights are being infringed upon you should be able to do these things regardless of your occupation. There are many companies that do this to people the military is no different.

It wasn't a Christian who killed 13 of his battle buddies in Nov. 2009. In fact, the Ft. Hood shooter has not been to trial yet. So, buster, who is the real national security threat? A Christian who is exercising their faith, or a radicalized muslin who butchered 13 warriors? I agree, you would have to be blind to not see who the real threat is.

How can you not see that going into a Muslim country and trying to convert the people there can get soldiers killed there? And so far we have over 4000 American soldiers dead by a President who claimed God told him to run for President.

The Wienstien policy is specifically against Christian views, not Islamic views, Wiccan views, Jewish views, or Buddhist views. It is an attempt to prevent the outward practice of Christianity. I don't care what religion you are, to focus on one group instead of all groups is wrong. Even then, I would have a problem with that.

You are right he is directly against Christians and he should be fired from his job.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

Originally posted by smithjustinb
I understand the importance of keeping your beliefs to yourself, but should it really be a punishable crime? hell no.

To proselytize is to "induce someone to convert" or to recruit someone. Saying "I'm a Christian" is not proselytizing. One doesn't have to keep their beliefs to themselves. They just cannot try to convert or recruit someone else to their religion.

m/w proselytize

But thats what religious people do. its part of the religion.

So is thou shalt not kill but we have Christians in the military. And the main job for some of them is killing people.

reply to post by smithjustinb

Originally posted by smithjustinb
But thats what religious people do. its part of the religion.

Yes, I know. I used to be a Christian.

But when you join the military, this is one of their rules. If you don't want to follow it, don't join.

Christians (in my experience) do harass people by trying to "save" them. Express your religion. Practice your religion. Make your area a shrine to your religion or wear a religious t-shirt. But don't hand out pamphlets, email others about religion or approach people about religion. Leave other people out of it and you'll be fine.

On Weinstein:

Weinstein found that both his sons were exposed to Christian proselytizing at the Academy. In the case of his younger son Curtis, he reported that it included anti-Semitic language and being asked "how it felt to kill Jesus". His older son Casey, a 2004 Academy graduate, alleged that "Senior cadets would sit down and say, 'How do you feel about the fact that your family is going to burn in hell?'".[7] Weinstein wrote in his autobiography:

Wiki

To me, that's not proselytizing, that's religious harassment to an extreme. And I've encountered just such Christians, who attack and harass, under the auspices of "witnessing" or "sharing" their religion. This is how people like Weinstein become anti-Christian.

In my experiences, other religions simply DO NOT behave this way. I have never been "witnessed" to by another religion, although I worked in an extremely religion-diverse environment for many years, including Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, etc. Never ONCE did any of them proselytize to me. Only Christians.

.

reply to post by buster2010


For what its worth, any job will not allow you to perform things like that while in uniform. We don't allow our employees to wear their uniforms outisde work And we don't issue uniforms with our logo on it that leave (vests,nametags, etc are left in lockers).

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I agree with you. That is harrassment and should not be tolerated by anyone. To say that Jews killed Jesus is horrrible. From my perspective, Jesus as God in the flesh, knew he was going to die in the human form. Nobody "killed" him, he sacrificed himself willingly. One of my biggest peeves is when someone says, "Your going to hell." God wants everyone to come to him. Those who say this have darkness in their hearts and are not regenerated through the blood of the Lamb. The problem with Wienstien is he paints Christians with a broad brush. If I was presented to those who would say such things, I would correct them in the greatest degree.

reply to post by Siberbat


When you have such a HUGE organization of people (over 2 million) of all religions, and they're trying to work together, it's really difficult to handle each case. It's much easier to just prohibit proselytizing altogether. I do hate "blanket" rules that punish the innocent, but the military is very strict in the way it does things.

I feel the same about making sexual advances at work. Some are just innocent flirting, but some people just take it to an extreme and take advantage of the freedom. And because it can cause lasting feelings of unease, it's best to just leave it outside the workplace completely and flirt with someone else.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by skorpius

 

It's not for being a Christian, it's for religious proselytization, which is NOT permitted. Do you think Christians should have special rights to proselytize? How about other religions? Should Muslim soldiers be permitted to push their religion?

Especially in the military, there are rules that must be followed.

Tolerance is the number one weakness of our age, if anything America should become a Christian Republic as America was founded to give Christian's the freedom to practice Christianity. The tolerance of non-Christians is absurd, and will only end in the downfall of America. History has shown time and time again, whenever Christians where stupid enough to tolerate atheists or pagans, those atheists and pagans plotted genocide against Christians.

The personnel is political and the political is personnel.