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5-year-old Kentucky boy fatally shoots 2-year-old sister with gift rifle

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posted on May, 6 2013 @ 01:47 PM
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reply to post by butcherguy
 


More...



The investigation revealed that a friend, Robyn Anderson, accompanied Harris and Klebold to a gun show in late 1998 since she was of legal age to buy a firearm. At the gun show, 18-year-old Anderson purchased two shotguns and one rifle for the two killers. Those same guns were later used in the Columbine killings.

Anderson denies any prior knowledge of their plans. No law, state or federal, prohibits the purchase of a long gun (rifle) from a private individual (non-licensed dealer). Because of this, Anderson could not be charged with any crime. If Anderson had purchased the guns from a federally licensed dealer, it would have been considered a "straw purchase" and considered illegal under federal law to make the purchase for Harris and Klebold.

www.columbine-online.com...

No laws governing private sales at gun shows, beyond being 18 years of age...no law for private sales or gifts of rifles and shot-guns to minors...only hand-guns.

Get that? You could purchase as many shot-guns/rifles as you can carry from a private seller at a gun show...cash and carry, no background check or docs. You can then sell or give those weapons to a minor...no documentation, no nothing...all legal. It doesn't matter what they do with those guns as long as you can claim you didn't know what they had planned...nothing illegal about it...Yay NRA.
edit on 6-5-2013 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-5-2013 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 6 2013 @ 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 





one rifle, two shotguns and gave them to her underage boyfriend.

Oh, so that is legal?


YEP...the two guys that sold them pistols got prosecuted/fined, one guy sentenced to 6 years..cuz he bought them ammo, the gun, went shooting with them etc.....but the law only applies to pistols AND he wasn't prosecuted for Straw Purchase....cuz that is impossible...he was prosecuted for selling the gun to a MINOR etc.
www.columbine-online.com...
edit on 6-5-2013 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 


Why was the admitted strawbuyer for the guns used at the Columbine massacre NOT charged and tried for the crime?



Lastly...I will point out that proving a "straw purchase" requires that you can be PROVEN to know that the person you sold the gun to is a criminal that wasn't legally able to own a gun.

Since there is no requirement for background checks on private sales etc....How would you know?

So someone selling a dozen guns on the street can do so legally and simply claim...they looked like stand-up guys to me...and the burden of proof is on prosecutors to prove that the seller KNEW otherwise....Which is virtually impossible.



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 


Did she have the boys parents permission to give them firearms?


lements of the crime of unlawf ully providing or permitting a juvenile to possess a handgun are: 1. That the defendant, 2. in the State of Colorado, at or about the date and place charged, 3. knowingly 4. sold, rented or tran sferred ownership of or allowed unsupervised p ossession of 5. a firearm other than a handgun 6. to any juvenile 7. with or without remuneration 8. without the consent of the juvenile’s parent or guardian.


This law dates from 1983.
courts.state.co.us



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 02:06 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 




Since there is no requirement for background checks on private sales etc....How would you know?

This young lady was aware of the fact that the boys were underage.
State law in Colorado says that the parents must consent to the woman giving guns 'other than handguns' to their sons.
She broke the law.
She was not charged.



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 02:07 PM
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Only in the USA.
People are too dumb to be allowed to own firearms.



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 02:09 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 




Get that?

Who pissed in your cornflakes?
Have I been terribly mean to you? No.

So what is up with that?



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 02:21 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 




Lastly...I will point out that proving a "straw purchase" requires that you can be PROVEN to know that the person you sold the gun to is a criminal that wasn't legally able to own a gun.

So, are you saying here that it is legal to sell a firearm to a felon?
(whether you are or are not a FFL dealer)



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 


Did she have the boys parents permission to give them firearms?


lements of the crime of unlawf ully providing or permitting a juvenile to possess a handgun are: 1. That the defendant, 2. in the State of Colorado, at or about the date and place charged, 3. knowingly 4. sold, rented or tran sferred ownership of or allowed unsupervised p ossession of 5. a firearm other than a handgun 6. to any juvenile 7. with or without remuneration 8. without the consent of the juvenile’s parent or guardian.


This law dates from 1983.
courts.state.co.us


Hey Butch...Please read my posts...Shotguns/Rifles..no law prohibiting gifts and sales to minors.

I bolded something above for you...



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 




Since there is no requirement for background checks on private sales etc....How would you know?

This young lady was aware of the fact that the boys were underage.
State law in Colorado says that the parents must consent to the woman giving guns 'other than handguns' to their sons.
She broke the law.
She was not charged.


AGAIN...Please read my posts and links. You are wrong...you have it in reverse..the law limits handguns to minors, not rifles and shot-guns.
edit on 6-5-2013 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 02:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 




Lastly...I will point out that proving a "straw purchase" requires that you can be PROVEN to know that the person you sold the gun to is a criminal that wasn't legally able to own a gun.

So, are you saying here that it is legal to sell a firearm to a felon?
(whether you are or are not a FFL dealer)


If you are a FFL Dealer, you must run the background check...

Private seller...no background check.

For a private seller...the burden of proof is on prosecution to prove the seller KNEW the buyer was a felon...and since they are not required to run a background check...how is that proven?

SO YES it is legal to sell a handgun to a felon, as long as you can claim successfully that you did not KNOW that person to be a felon. And in private sales, where no background checks occur, that is pretty easy.
edit on 6-5-2013 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-5-2013 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 




Get that?

Who pissed in your cornflakes?
Have I been terribly mean to you? No.

So what is up with that?


Apologies...don't read tone into the post. Or at least discount it if it distracts from substance.



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 


Did she have the boys parents permission to give them firearms?


lements of the crime of unlawf ully providing or permitting a juvenile to possess a handgun are: 1. That the defendant, 2. in the State of Colorado, at or about the date and place charged, 3. knowingly 4. sold, rented or tran sferred ownership of or allowed unsupervised p ossession of 5. a firearm other than a handgun 6. to any juvenile 7. with or without remuneration 8. without the consent of the juvenile’s parent or guardian.


This law dates from 1983.
courts.state.co.us


Hey Butch...Please read my posts...Shotguns/Rifles..no law prohibiting gifts and sales to minors.

I bolded something above for you...

HEY INDIGO.....
Go to the pdf and read it all......
You bolded something from a section with this title....

12:16 UNLAWFULLY PROVIDING OR PERMITTING A JUVENILE TO POSSESS A FIREARM OTHER THAN A HANDGUN

See the 'other than a' before handgun?

Seriously, go to the LAW and read that section...... it isn't about handguns.



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 


No law, state or federal, prohibits the purchase of a long gun (rifle) from a private individual (non-licensed dealer).


This is false. It is illegal, and has been for years for a felon (or even a person with a misdemeanor conviction that resulted in a jail sentence of more than one year) to receive a firearm.That would be a law.... that prohibits the purchase of a firearm from anyone. So federal law and most states laws prevent felons from receiving firearms. Felons are prohibited from purchasing firearms. Yet, Dave Cullen's statement here says otherwise. It is often good to read what some people write with a grain of salt. Dave Cullen prides himself on 10 years of research for his book, but he has very basic facts wrong.

edit on 6-5-2013 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 03:22 PM
link   

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 


No law, state or federal, prohibits the purchase of a long gun (rifle) from a private individual (non-licensed dealer).


This is false. It is illegal, and has been for years for a felon (or even a person with a misdemeanor conviction that resulted in a jail sentence of more than one year) to receive a firearm.That would be a law.... that prohibits the purchase of a firearm from anyone. So federal law and most states laws prevent felons from receiving firearms. Felons are prohibited from purchasing firearms. Yet, Dave Cullen's statement here says otherwise. It is often good to read what some people write with a grain of salt. Dave Cullen prides himself on 10 years of research for his book, but he has very basic facts wrong.

edit on 6-5-2013 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)


Yes ...it is illegal for a Felon to purchase a firearm.

It is not illegal for a private seller to sell a Felon a firearm...IF they do not know that the buyer is a Felon.

You are conflating the two parties in the transaction.



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 03:24 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 


I am simply stating that Dave Cullen made a statement that is false.
It is false.



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 03:27 PM
link   

Originally posted by butcherguy

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 


Did she have the boys parents permission to give them firearms?


lements of the crime of unlawf ully providing or permitting a juvenile to possess a handgun are: 1. That the defendant, 2. in the State of Colorado, at or about the date and place charged, 3. knowingly 4. sold, rented or tran sferred ownership of or allowed unsupervised p ossession of 5. a firearm other than a handgun 6. to any juvenile 7. with or without remuneration 8. without the consent of the juvenile’s parent or guardian.


This law dates from 1983.
courts.state.co.us


Hey Butch...Please read my posts...Shotguns/Rifles..no law prohibiting gifts and sales to minors.

I bolded something above for you...

HEY INDIGO.....
Go to the pdf and read it all......
You bolded something from a section with this title....

12:16 UNLAWFULLY PROVIDING OR PERMITTING A JUVENILE TO POSSESS A FIREARM OTHER THAN A HANDGUN

See the 'other than a' before handgun?

Seriously, go to the LAW and read that section...... it isn't about handguns.


I bolded what you provided and what you provided...did not say "other than a handgun"...but reading now and will be back to you.



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 03:45 PM
link   

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 


I am simply stating that Dave Cullen made a statement that is false.
It is false.


How so...He wasn't specifying a felon? Aside form a felon, it is legal to purchase long arms from private citizens?



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 04:12 PM
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reply to post by butcherguy
 


Okay...what is the source of your link? It looks like jury advice? and from 1984...laws change all the time..

Here are my sources...



The other three guns used by the killers came from Robyn Anderson, who attended Columbine and went to prom with Klebold. She bought one gun for Klebold and two for Harris at a gun show. The transfer of such long-arm guns to juveniles wasn't illegal then, though it is now.

m.rockymountainnews.com...



Anderson denies any prior knowledge of their plans. No law, state or federal, prohibits the purchase of a long gun (rifle) from a private individual (non-licensed dealer). Because of this, Anderson could not be charged with any crime. If Anderson had purchased the guns from a federally licensed dealer, it would have been considered a "straw purchase" and considered illegal under federal law to make the purchase for Harris and Klebold.

www.columbine-online.com...



Anderson, a straight-A student who never went back to columbine High after the deadly rampage, came forward after the shootings and was questioned by investigators. Legislators repeatedly had said that she should be prosecuted for buying the guns. But federal and state prosecutors countered that it wasn't illegal for her to buy guns in a private sale, which doesn't require a background check.

But she told the committee there should have been a law.

"It was entirely too easy to purchase the guns, and something should be done," Anderson told the committee.

law-journals-books.vlex.com...



Federal law forbids gun dealers to sell shotguns or rifles to anyone younger than 18. It also forbids "straw'' sales to someone obviously acquiring guns for people ineligible to buy them.

But those prohibitions apply only to licensed firearms dealers. Anderson bought two shotguns and the carbine from three different unlicensed sellers at the show. Because all were private sales, none could be classified as "straw'' purchases made for juveniles

extras.denverpost.com...



January 27, 2000 – 9 bills pass in the Colorado House Judiciary Committee meeting toughing buying regulations in Colorado. Robyn Anderson, who legally bought three of the four guns used April 20, was one of the proponents speaking for the bills

spotlightoncorruption.wordpress.com...

I can go on?



posted on May, 6 2013 @ 04:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by butcherguy

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 


Did she have the boys parents permission to give them firearms?


lements of the crime of unlawf ully providing or permitting a juvenile to possess a handgun are: 1. That the defendant, 2. in the State of Colorado, at or about the date and place charged, 3. knowingly 4. sold, rented or tran sferred ownership of or allowed unsupervised p ossession of 5. a firearm other than a handgun 6. to any juvenile 7. with or without remuneration 8. without the consent of the juvenile’s parent or guardian.


This law dates from 1983.
courts.state.co.us


Hey Butch...Please read my posts...Shotguns/Rifles..no law prohibiting gifts and sales to minors.

I bolded something above for you...

HEY INDIGO.....
Go to the pdf and read it all......
You bolded something from a section with this title....

12:16 UNLAWFULLY PROVIDING OR PERMITTING A JUVENILE TO POSSESS A FIREARM OTHER THAN A HANDGUN

See the 'other than a' before handgun?

Seriously, go to the LAW and read that section...... it isn't about handguns.


So the law you cited....

The law was 1983 but the amendment prohibiting giving/selling Long Guns to juvenilles...

Notice at the bottom of your passage..


SOURCE & AUTHORITY
§18–12–108.7 (3), C.R.S.


What's that?



Cite as C.R.S § 18-12-108.7

History. L. 93, 1st Ex. Sess.: Entire section added, p. 3, § 2, effective September 13. L. 2000: Entire section amended, p. 642, § 1, effective July 1; (4) added, p. 641, § 1, effective July 1. L. 2002: (2)(a) amended, p. 1518, § 209, effective October 1.

Editor's Note:

Amendments to this section by House Bill 00-1247 and House Bill 00-1243 were harmonized by renumbering (3) from House Bill 00-1247 as (4).


LINK

The law was amended to prohibit sale to Juveniles without parental consent etc. AFTER Columbine....




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