Sometimes I wonder about the Trinitarian view.

I wonder if when we all stand before God will he say "You really wasted your time debating this nonsense?".

I am a firm believer that Yeshua and Yahweh are two separate entities. One cannot be his own son. The Bible clearly separates them by name. So my belief will never change and this thread is not to try and change others opinions. I just had this thought today and sometimes I wonder what God thinks about this. Whether its completely silly to debate it. Or would worshiping Yeshua be considered worshiping a false idol?

If you're a believer, then just follow the perfect example. Christ worshipped the Father, and taught us to do so as well, pretty explicitly. I'll call that a safe bet either way.

We tend to get so caught up in divisive points of quibbling doctrine, but I don't think the details matter so much as the application. Walk as Christ walked, obey as he taught, and feel free to believe what you want otherwise - just don't make it a stumbling block for your brother. It's all about being a servant as Christ served - not being proven right.

reply to post by AllGloryIsGods


Its silly to debate it because its obvious...

The Father is not the son... They are separate entities... but while he was on earth they were One "mind"...

Of course im not Christian either, so you might want to hear it from a Trinitarian...

They seem to like the three leaf clover theory... three leaves, one plant...

Personally the trinity makes no sense to me, at least according to the gospels

And this YHWH has nothing to do with Jesus...

Read this... Jesus Vs The Imposter

What convinced me was when I learned that the Trinity is attacked by all the cults and false religions.

Always believe the opposite of what propaganda says...

The Trinity is one of the most frequently attacked doctrines by the cults and false religions

Is the Trinity a blatant contradiction and a damnable heresy? The fact is, creation is filled with illustrations of spiritual truths that reveal the many attributes of God, not the least of which is the Trinity. In fact, there are tri-unities all around us! For example:

Einstein’s Theory of Relativity revealed the fact that life as we know it consists of three things, time, space, and matter (which is energy).

I have demonstrated that the Trinity is not illogical, irrational, or contradictory. Did any of you have eggs for breakfast this morning? It consists of the shell, the white and the yoke. Were you eating three eggs? Even a chicken can answer that one! If you are still adamant, that God cannot be a Trinity, I’ll ask you the same question God asked Job in Job chapter 38:

“Who is this who darkens council by words without knowledge? Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me. Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have the understanding.”

How Can One God Be A Trinity?

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been consistently misunderstood, probably more than any other teaching of the Bible. The Trinity is a complex doctrine, and there is the aspect of mystery surrounding it.

The Trinity has become the main doctrine that all the cult groups attack. It is also the main doctrine that all the mainline, historic churches agree upon. We may all have our differences, Catholics and varying Protestant groups, but when it comes to the doctrine on God we all agree that the Bible teaches belief in One God revealed in three persons, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Nevertheless we would not want to believe in the Trinity if the Bible did not teach it, no matter what the beliefs of our various churches were.

It's interesting that the cult groups usually give their members a false definition of the Trinity. For example, the magazine salesmen knocking on your door with their propaganda from Brooklyn, New York, say that the church teaches that there are three gods in one. This is completely false.

IS THE TRINITY TRUE?

The one thing that all cults and non-Christian religions have in common is, they all deny the deity of Christ. In John 8:24 Jesus said, “Unless you believe that I am (the name God said was His in Exodus 3:15) you will die in your sin.”

People reading this today (2,000 years later) might not understand this, but the people Jesus said it to understood Him perfectly! They wanted to stone Him for claiming to be God (John 10:30-33). In most cases the confusion is based on miss-understanding the Trinity.

The cults say the Trinity is a damnable heresy. For a mortal who has never seen God, to say that the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, immortal God cannot be God in heaven, come to earth as a man, and be everywhere at the same time by His Spirit (a statement beyond his pay-grade) is a greater mystery than the Trinity itself.

There is not a man on earth who can tell you how a brown cow can eat green grass and turn it into white milk! Answering the Cults

Originally posted by AllGloryIsGods
I wonder if when we all stand before God will he say "You really wasted your time debating this nonsense?".

That wouldn't surprise me. I'm sure that he rolls his eyes at me, numerous times, daily.

However, as an orthodox Christian apologist, I'd rather be accused by God of arguing matters that don't really matter (and thus, being a boor) than be accused by God of ignoring matters that really do matter (and thus, allowing others to fall into error.)

About the only thing that we can conclude is that it is very likely that, when the veil is lifted and all is revealed, we will say "oh, man, that's so obvious, how did I miss it?"

I am a firm believer that Yeshua and Yahweh are two separate entities. One cannot be his own son. The Bible clearly separates them by name.

Obviously.

The error that non-Trinitarians make is believing that the doctrine is anything other than an effort to explain what the evidence shows. The only way that a non-Trinitarian belief works is if one either adopts polytheism, or they reject the evidence of the New Testament, because it makes Jesus out to have a multi-personality disorder.

The anti-Trinity heresy is one of the most dangerous teachings today which is why it was officially condemned by the church in the fourth century.

The Trinity is attacked mainly by cults so that they can also deny the deity of Jesus.

One of the biggest clues is to look at which groups reject the Trinity and which do not:

Faith Groups that Reject the Trinity

• Muslims
• Mormons
• Jehovah's Witnesses
• Christian Science
• Scientology
• Arians
• Armstrongism
• Christadelphians
• The Way International
• Unification Church

"Another characteristic of all non‑Christian cults is either an inadequate view or outright denial of the Holy Trinity. The biblical doctrine of the Trinity, one God in three Persons, is usually attacked as being pagan or satanic in origin.

The Characteristics of Cults

Plural pronouns used of God proving the trinity

A. Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages. Remember the word God (elohim) is also plural every time it is used in the Old Testament. Gen 11:7 also includes a plural verb (confuse) which even further, through grammar reinforces the plural "elohim" and the plural pronoun US.

"Our" Gen 1:26
"Us" Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8
"We" Isa 6:8

B. These are the four passages where God speaks for Himself and uses plural pronouns:

"Then God [plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness" Genesis 1:26

"Then Yahweh God [plural elohim] said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:22

"Come, let Us [plural pronoun] go down and there confuse [plural form of balal] their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech." Genesis 11:7

"Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural elohim], saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?"" Isaiah 6:8

Trinity Proof Texts

The Characteristics of Cults

reply to post by adjensen

because it makes Jesus out to have a multi-personality disorder.

Lol what?

That's a new one... how and where do you find that?

Originally posted by Murgatroid
One of the biggest clues is to look at which groups reject the Trinity and which do not:

Faith Groups that Reject the Trinity

You forgot atheists and Oneness Pentecostals

One of whom is likely to show up, fairly soon, to tell you that Trinitarians are the cultists, lol.

The Trinity is a sham, at least one part of it is.

What I find weird is that most Christians believe that Jesus was the Father yet also believe in the Trinity. The Trinity states that the Father and Son are not the same entity. Contradiction much?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

because it makes Jesus out to have a multi-personality disorder.

Lol what?

That's a new one... how and where do you find that?

If Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one entity, how else would one explain this:

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (John 17:1-5 NIV)

and

Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done. (Luke 22:42 NIV)

If the Oneness Pentecostals are right, and Jesus IS the Father, these are examples of him praying to himself.

Sounds pretty kooky to me.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The Trinity is a sham, at least one part of it is.

What I find weird is that most Christians believe that Jesus was the Father

Apart from certain... um... subgroups... most Christians do NOT believe that Jesus was the Father.

If you wish to discuss the Doctrine of the Trinity, at least take the time to understand it (even if you disagree with it.)

reply to post by AllGloryIsGods


I don't have a problem with the trinity. To me, it's the same as "Me, myself and I", Body, mind and soul." Duality being discerned by an observer.

One point is a private unity, two points can only exist in a plane. A third point is required to create a spacial dimension that gives birth to the 4th point, the "AHA", cognisance, and the "birth" of another dimension: the Tetrahedron, or Gods' name, 1234.

God isn't a trinity, we are, in our present physical state.

reply to post by adjensen


Well, all Christians believe that Jesus was god right? When Jesus was praying to his Father, he was praying to god right? I hate to use such a broad stroke, but if all Christians believe Jesus was god, they also believe he was the Father. I'm just assuming here, not saying I'm right.

I never said I don't believe in a Trinity, I just don't believe in the Catholic version. I think they left out a key part of it then replaced it with something else (holy spirit).

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

Well, all Christians believe that Jesus was god right? When Jesus was praying to his Father, he was praying to god right? I hate to use such a broad stroke, but if all Christians believe Jesus was god, they also believe he was the Father. I'm just assuming here, not saying I'm right.

Correct, you are not right. God is a term that applies to both the Father and the Son, but Father is not a term that applies to Son, neither is Son a term that applies to Father. (And, no, "Mother" is not the third person of the Trinity -- again, it arose from the evidence of Scripture, and in the Trinity, only "Son" has a gender. In spite of the masculine term "Father", it is generally accepted that neither he nor the Holy Spirit has any gender -- it is an application of convenience, not fact.)

Again, if you wish to discuss the Trinity, please take ten minutes and at least go understand the rudimentals of it. I provided you a link in the last post, that is a good place to start.

reply to post by adjensen


I understand the basics of the Trinity. The Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit but all are god. Pretty simple really, it takes less than a minute to learn that. Me assuming others do not understand the Trinity does not mean I don't, it just means I made an assumption that may or may not be true.

Didn't I say in my first post that the Trinity says that the Father is not the Son? Or did you conveniently miss that part of the post?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


You said this:

if all Christians believe Jesus was god, they also believe he was the Father

which is an indication that you do not understand the Doctrine of the Trinity.

Christians do not believe that Jesus was the Father, and the Doctrine of the Trinity explicitly says that Jesus is not the Father.

Again, please take the time to understand what we teach, regardless of whether you agree with it or not.

reply to post by adjensen


I understand the Trinity and have for a while. Why would I state that the Father and Son were not the same entity then turn around and switch my understanding?

Me saying that was me ASSUMING something about SOMEONE ELSE'S understanding, it has no bearing on my own understanding. As I stated in my first post:

The Trinity states that the Father and the Son are not the same entity.

So tell me, why do you think I don't understand when I proved I understood with said post?

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

because it makes Jesus out to have a multi-personality disorder.

Lol what?

That's a new one... how and where do you find that?

If Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one entity, how else would one explain this:

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (John 17:1-5 NIV)

and

Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done. (Luke 22:42 NIV)

If the Oneness Pentecostals are right, and Jesus IS the Father, these are examples of him praying to himself.

Sounds pretty kooky to me.

Well ya i'll give you that...

Though again like I said, its obvious they are not the same entity...

But I also find it obvious that Jesus wasn't God...

Do Catholics believe in the trinity?

Originally posted by Akragon
Do Catholics believe in the trinity?

Of course we do, we originated the Nicene Creed, for pity's sakes

I just realized something, if the Son and the Father are not the same entity then why did Jesus say that he and the Father were One? That's basically saying the Son and the Father are the same, which the Trinity contradicts.