First active player in a major American team sport to announce that he is gay

I keep hearing a phrase getting tossed around, on news, over the radio, in discussions, where people (the bigots) keep referring back to being gay as "living a lifestyle"... Its not a lifestyle, they were born that way, and the reason why i know that is because why would someone choose to be hated? And secondly, its not a lifestyle, if it is, then being straight it too, but we all know thats not true. I was born straight, I am straight, end of story...

Ultimately, I believe that Jason Collins NBA career is winding down and I'm sure he didn't want to look back one day and say to himself "I wish I would have came out when I played"... It takes a lot of courage to be the first (at anything, let alone first gay athlete from a major sport), in a way you're really taking that 'leap of faith' and I feel he should be looked at as a brave man and be applauded.

Listening to this 4-minute interview might help people who want to understand more.

NBA's Jason Collins Interview

reply to post by charles1952


I've been an avid NBA fan for a very long time. Heck, I can remember watching the draft where the Collins twins were drafted. So I think I may be able to give a fairly well informed answer to some of these questions:

Let me engage in some far-fetched fantasy. I don't know what the average basketball player is like, but six teams in twelve years and both points and rebounds under four sounds pretty light to me. Is his career coming to an end? If so, does this announcement help or hurt him? From the same Reuters article:

Collins is considered a decent third string big man, and has been for most of his career. He hasnt really ever been asked to be a focal point for a team. He's always been considered more of a 'banger'. A big, smart guy with 6 fouls to use on the opponents best big man. His offensive game basically consists of setting screens, which he does well, and not a whole lot else.

He's an older player, and has been on the fringe for the last couple of seasons. Teams have picked him up to play the role I previously described, and to act as a mentor.

This year he is a unrestricted free agent, meaning he can sign with any team, for any amount withing the collective bargaining agreement. As you look around today's NBA, there is an obvious lack of true 'big men'. So it is highly likely that there is a team out there that would have signed him, before all of this, to add depth to their roster at a low price (he probably wouldnt garner much over a minimum salary).

If anything, I believe this actually LIMITS the number of teams that will be looking at him. A team like the Minnesota Timberwolves, who are notorious for keeping the highest percentage of white players in the league because of the demographic of their fan base, seem even less likely to sign a black, gay player.

At best, this makes certain destinations, like my hometown, Portland, or Los Angeles more desirable from Collins' perspective, just because they are cities that a reputation for being extremely tolerant.

I can't know what his intentions were, but the article claims that his announcement will give him a slightly better chance to play another year.

Like I stated before, I think he had a pretty good chance to play another year anyway. The thing I havent really heard brought up, though, is what this does for his life AFTER basketball. He's long been thought of as a good candidate to go into coaching after his career is over. He is a Stanford alum and thought of as a very smart guy who understands the game of basketball very well. Does this help or hinder those prospects?

You can absolutely guarantee that this will open doors in sports broadcasting, after his career, which probably wouldnt have been there.

If he doesn't get signed, he won't have to worry about any locker room mistreatment, and can claim, if he wants, that he is being discriminated against. Meanwhile, millions of people call him a hero, something that likely few did while he was playing basketball.

I think the fact that he is near the end of his career probably made it a little easier on him to come out than it would for, say, a 20 year old just coming into the league. Imagine if, say, Lebron James came out of the closet as gay. Can you IMAGINE the fervor that would surround that?

reply to post by charles1952

If I was a better writer I wouldn't have caused the confusion I obviously did. That is not intended to be a self-deprecating comment, but a realistic observation.

Well thats the internet for you. It seems to lend to a sarcastic reading. It is "impossible" to read, my "exalted" heights. You can't blame me for thinking you were being sardonic.

Anyways, I can get bitter pretty quickly, so I apologize for any malice that may have seeped through into my post. . I guess I should have considered your genteelism.

Then what does the headline of the thread mean when he is described as an "active player?"

An NBA roster has 12 active players, but only 8-10 guys get nightly play. Jason's a bench warmer. He's there for practices, and only due to injuries to other players would he be getting playing time.

I am not saying that Collins will be hired, in part, because of his preferences, but it is not impossible.

You'd be surprised how little interest this would create for fans. Jackie Robinson, btw, was an amazing baseball player. Regardless of wanting to break down the racial barrier, the GM must have understood that this guy had actual talent and thus could elevate the level of play for his team.

Could this generate interest? There's always a possibility. I don't outright exclude from possibility that an NBA team (with clear political interests) might pick him up. I personally don't think, at age 34 (which is old by NBA standards) that Jason Collins will be wanting to play anymore in the league. Every year a new influx of talent enters, which means every year the probability that an older player will be phased out increases. In this years draft, for example (I'm a big basketball fan) you got a few really good bigmen coming in. That means some older guys will lose their roster spots i.e. they will be released by their teams.

It would be downright wasteful, both financially, and practically, to give a roster spot to a player when there are 3 or 4 other players who would be more helpful, whether in practices, or on the floor.

That there can be no gay men in Basketball? I've never heard of that one.

As you mentioned 2-5 % of the population is homosexual. That means 2-5 % of active NBA, NHL, MLB and NFL players are gay. Yet only 1 person is 4 leagues has come out. To put this into perspective, there are 450 active NBA players. Statistically speaking, there should 9 to 22 gay NBA athletes.. In major league baseball, there are 750 players, 0 have come out as gay. 690 NHL players. 0 have come out as gay. 1696 NFL players, 0 have come out as gay. All together, that is 3696 athletes. There is a statistical probability that 73 to 184 of these players should be gay, but only 1 has come out. It is simply statistically impossible that there aren't many more gay athletes in these leagues.

What does this data suggest about cultural barriers? It means that players who are gay aren't comfortable about broadcasting it.

As I said before, I don't think it is relevant or matters. The idea that we should wear on our sleeve our sexual orientation is balderdash. That sexual orientation is even treated by our media as "immutable' is annoying to the extreme.

I love studying neuroscience. The brains plasticity has been demonstrated in damn near every area: the motor cortex can rearrange itself; the sensory cortex can rearrange itself; the visual cortex can rearrange itself. EVERY part of the brain is mutable to some degree. So why, pray tell, does our media shovel this crap into our hearts about people being immutable? Why do they demonize those doctors who try to help individuals who want to correct their sexual feelings? As if it couldn't be corrected?

I have PTSD and OCD (or did have, they are manageable now), and both are in my control. My PET scan before and after show dramatic change in the brain. The before scan shows a strong network connection between the amygdala (stress centre), the striatum-right caudate nucleus (which deals with our ability to shift from one thought to another) and the orbitofronal cortex (attentive mind). The after scan shows a normalized brain, where the Rcd is separate from the orbit frontal cortex, and the activity in the amygdala is minimal.

The main part of the brain which deals with sexual orientation is the hypothalamus. Under a brain scan, the homosexual brain appears one way, while the heterosexual brain appears another way. What exactly is occurring scientists don't yet understand. It is far too complex for our science to figure out at this point. Nevertheless, it has been shown that through cognitive therapy someone who had a homosexual before scan can normalize his brain to have a heterosexual after scan. In effect, he changed his brain, he changed the way he felt about his feelings. Now, this individual feel attracted to the opposite sex.

The implications of this discovery relative to the claims made by our media only shows how an agenda is being carried out to radically change the way we understand our world. Not only does sexuality not matter - but seemingly everything is being deconstructed. Social psychologists, evolutionary psychologists, are keen to break down the barrier between man and animal. Philosophers and psychologists want to break down our sense of an objective morality. This is tactical and strategic: were finding it every place we look.

Philosophy is philosophy and science is science. The science shows that someone who is experiencing homosexual feelings is merely in a homosexual state of mind, due to a feeling he may have been predisposed to by his brains original biology, or through early life experiences. But through rigorous cognitive therapy, the brain can be taught to think and feel differently. Therefore, sexuality is as plastic as plastic can be. Freud noticed this when he claimed that man was inherently bisexual. Although that is going too far - evolutionarily speaking, the propagation of our species requires the predominance of heterosexual feelings.

In any case, sexual preference is a moral question, which in turn is based on your metaphysics and epistemology.

reply to post by dontreally

Originally posted by dontreally
Nevertheless, it has been shown that through cognitive therapy someone who had a homosexual before scan can normalize his brain to have a heterosexual after scan. In effect, he changed his brain, he changed the way he felt about his feelings. Now, this individual feel attracted to the opposite sex.

Please provide a source for this case. Thank you.

And please don't tell me to read a bunch of books. I want to know about this person who had a homosexual before scan and "normalized" HIS brain to have a heterosexual after scan. Who is this previously gay individual you speak of?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Studies like the ones being referenced are right on par with those that show through extensive therapy, the 'wrong' parts of the brain that make someone an atheist can be 'normalized' to make them embrace christianity.

In short, its called De-progamming, or brainwashing. Vulgar, vulgar stuff.

Interestingly, Jason Collins Twitter followers rose from about 3500 to 97,000 (from his account) since his announcement...

Sports Illustrated

I'm really glad to see the mostly positive reaction to this.

The recently retired and now recently unretired Rogers, who phoned Collins yesterday while driving to a Los Angeles Galaxy tryout, said, "It feels a little weird to congratulate you for being honest."

Read More: sportsillustrated.cnn.com...

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I don't see what is so difficult to understand, heretic.

From a purely theoretical standpoint, it has been shown that the brain "changes itself" in ways far more radical than sexuality. If someone loses function of his right motor cortex after a stroke, through vigorous mental effort (facilitated by attention), all those functions related to the left motor cortex responsible for movement can be literally transferred to the right motor cortex. This is a process called contralateral mirroring.

So too, Barbara Arrowsmith young, a pedagogical psychologist and neuroscience researcher, has developed programs aimed at developing the underdeveloped areas in people with ADHD, dyslexia and other learning disabilities. The success rate of her program is in the 90+ percentile. If the brain which struggles with interpreting words on a page, or with spatial reasoning, can correct these deficiencies through exercises which strengthen these neurological areas, than it is obviously a perfectly valid deduction to include sexuality within that rubric.

Again: there hasn't been a single area of the brain exempt from this plasticity.. This is simple science. There is constant stem cell formation in the hippocampus (which creates new memories), the glia (which make up 9/10s of brain cells) are intimately involved in new cell formations and neuron growth. The science is there, from understanding molecular processes in the brain, to analyzing before and after scans of people with psychological disorders as disruptive as PTSD, OCD, Tourettes syndrome, body dysmoprhic disorder, general anxiety and social anxiety disorders. Why would homosexuality be excluded from this, when it is common knowledge, was claimed by a famous 19th century psychologist (Sigmund Freud), that sexuality is extremely mutable?

And there are hundreds, to thousands of individuals who have gone through programs and 'corrected' (to the preference they would prefer to have) their sexual orientation.

I simply don't understand why anyone could be skeptical of this. Dr. Jeffrey Schwartz, researcher at UCLA department of psychiatry, argues in his book "the mind and the brain", that the mind remains fundamentally different from the brain. This is what is implicated in his research on OCD. Without medication, and just with cognitive therapy, people who had for years been engaging in the same repetitive behavior, managed to change their brains.

The before scan and After scan show changes in circuitry:


The right caudate nucleus is associating with shifting from one thought to another. For people dealing with OCD, this is precisely what they struggle to do. They are "stuck", it feels, in one particular thought. In this before scan, the Rcd is tightly connected with the orbitofrontal cortex - the conscious and attentive mind. Also involved in this process is the amygdala. Together, these 3 areas are the neurological correlate of OCD.

To break it down into more digestible terms. What is OCD? It is an obsession problem? What is an obsession? It is a very strong and intense emotion. What is an emotion? A Feeling. So how does someone struggling with OCD liberate himself from this nightmarish feedback loop? By accessing the area called the Dorsolateral prefrontal cortex. In the above PET cross-section, the dorsolateral cortex isn't shown. But in MRI's and other PET scans, the DLC is not involved in the OCD circuity - yet - the DLC is a crucial area controlling executive functions.

Damage to the DL-PFC can result in the dysexecutive syndrome,[4]which leads to problems with affect, social judgement, executive memory, abstract thinking and intentionality.[5]

Link

If any area of the brain houses Free will judgement and self control, it is the dorsolateral cortex. It is from here that the the mind CHOOSES to think about something DIFFERENT from the brain inclines it towards. As someone who has gone through this process myself, I can't praise this understanding anymore. Dr. Schwartz derives his method chiefly (but not exclusively) from Buddhist meditation techniques of mindfulness; it is this area of the brain which is lighting up when Buddhist monks are in deep meditation. And it is this are which needs to be recruited in order to redesign ones own neural networks.

Homosexuality isn't special, benevolentheretic. It is just one among many emotional states that people experience.

www.mygenes.co.nz...

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Aleister

 

Saying something is one thing, but feeling "ok" about it, is quite another.

Personally, if I were a gay athlete, the locker room would be an "exciting" experience. I don't see why not. Handsome muscular men walking around nude. Seems stimulating.

Of course, as a libertarian, I wouldn't interfere or comment on another persons life choices; but at the same time, I could understand the awkwardness other male athletes would feel when in the locker room with someone they know is gay. You can try as hard as you like to hammer it in: Don't Feel that way! But I'm sorry, it's awkward, and a tad uncomfortable. This doesn't mean I wont maintain a respectful and friendly relationship with that person, but it is also ok to feel uncomfortable with it.

I'm a little sick of a society that not only wants to change the way you act, but also the way you feel about things.

It's my duty and responsibility as a citizen to treat others with respect, regardless of their sexual orientation. But it is most assuredly not the media, government, or intelligentsias prerogative to dictate to me a moral viewpoint that doesn't jibe with my philosophical worldview. And perhaps, that is what makes this so distasteful.

I am happy, to a degree, that Jarron Collins feels relieved. My cousin is gay, and all the time I have to 'put up' with things that I otherwise disapprove of. But, its a compromise I have to make. My love for him trumps my disapproval for his life choice. And yes - it is a choice. With all the wondrous advances in neuroscience and in understanding the mind boggling plasticity of the human brian, it is downright scandalous that people are claiming that homosexuality is a 'genetic" permanency. If the brain can rewire its motor cortex after serious injury, than there is no shadow of a freaking doubt - nay, some neuroscientists are veritably perturbed with the politicization going on around this subject - that the hypothalamus, which deals with our sexual feelings, can be tweaked through cognitive therapy. This is completely beyond dispute.

So, to return. Given sexual preference is a choice, a choice which is motivated by a genetic predisposition (which can be altered through cognitive therapy), than ultimately, this is a philosophical issue, not a moral.

By telling people "what is morally right", they are in fact subverting your ability to understand the world in any other way besides the one which this moral decision supports.

What, you might be wondering, would compel me to oppose homosexuality? There are many ways to approach a moral situation, be it from a perspective of the immediate benefit (the gay persons relief), and so his good, or, from a metaphysical angle. Metaphysically, I believe the world works along the premise of a perfect asymmetry: between male and female energies. I believe all constructive relationships operate from this organizing principle. All things can be reduced to a male-female relationship, which is intrinsically asymmetrical. The sky and the Earth, the brain and the body, or the transcendent Creator and His Creation - they fit together. From this vantage point, homosexuality - which ultimately, from the perspective of a free will, is a CHOICE - is an aberration, a deviation from the natural condition of perfect asymmetry.

So, depending on what your perspective is - from the earthly, unconcerned with any possible meaning to the forms the world takes on - or from the perspective of the divine, to a possible ontological meaning to the dynamics of our reality, from there, we come to disagree.

Life ultimately cant be reduced to this or that. Love - my love for my cousin - should take precedence to my belief in a higher metaphysical purpose to the way things are. So, paradoxically, I can ignore, even respect and interact with gay people, but I do so knowing that I ultimately disapprove.

What's sad is that so many people are fully willing to forgo, or simply ignore, the existence of significance of a metaphysical principle called perfect asymmetry. For me, it would be a loss to renounce this view, because, despite my love for my cousin and my desire to maintain a strong relationship with him, I can't turn my back to what I see clearly indicated in natures dynamics. It would be a lie; it would be self delusion. So, I accept the compromise. It doesn't have to be this or that, but can be both.

Quickly, i have to respond,

i did NOT select to be what is considered now 'Pansexual' it is not a choice, and i dare you to prove as far as i have been living i have been selecting this

reply to post by dontreally

Originally posted by dontreally
I don't see what is so difficult to understand, heretic.

Oh, this is not a case of not understanding. I understand your position perfectly and I understand the point you are trying to make. I just asked for proof of your original claim about the individual whose brain scan changed from homosexual to heterosexual, and you still haven't given it. If you had proof, I'm quite sure you would have given it by now, so I can only assume you made that story up. And for that reason, I will no longer engage with you on this subject.
----------------------------------------

On topic: While Collins' announcement has garnered him much praise and support for his bravery, the religious right is not so happy for him. Here's an example of one church's response to his announcement.

Wisconsin Church Disinvites Speaker Because of his Support of Collins

Former Green Bay Packers safety LeRoy Butler sent out a simple tweet Monday afternoon: "Congrats to Jason Collins."
...
"Wow, I was schedule(d) to speak at a church in WI, and a member said that the pastor wants to cancel my event, I said ok why?"
...
"Then I was told, because I said congrats to Jason Collins on twitter. I said really? we have a contract. he said check the moral (clause)"

A few minutes later, Butler, who has been retired from the NFL for 11 seasons, posted again on his Twitter account:

"FYI the fee was 8500$, then I was told if i removed the tweet, and apologize and ask god forgiveness, I can have the event, I said no."

While Collins received much support from the loving and understanding people of this country, this church decides to judge and punish one of his supporters. Sadly, this is typical... There has been quite a bit of religious judgment against Collins AND those who showed him love and acceptance.

NBA Player Jason Collins Comes Out: Religious Right Apoplectic

While we celebrate his courage, some Christians condemn him – and us – for not being offended. As they say in churches across the nation,” it’s a sign of the times that people would rather come out of the closet than clean it.”

What is really odd and silly to me about news like this is why this Collins creature felt the need to come out of the closet and tell the world that he's a homosexual in the first place. If I were his teammate, why the hell should I or anyone else for that matter care about his sexual orientation? This kind of crap is embraced by the major american sports leagues and the media in general while people like Tim Tebow is cut from the NFL for his outspoken christian faith. Obviously, if Tebow was openly gay he would have been heralded as the next great quarterback.

reply to post by BlackManINC

What is really odd and silly to me about news like this is why this Collins creature

Wow, you give yourself away as a bigot in your very first sentence. Well done!

felt the need to come out of the closet and tell the world that he's a homosexual in the first place.

Do you really need to ask this question? Would you feel the same if it was YOU that was being asked to lie about who they were for their entire life, solely because of a handful of less than impressive IQ cant handle it?

If I were his teammate, why the hell should I or anyone else for that matter care about his sexual orientation?

You shouldnt. But you DO. You care that he is homosexual, which is kind of the point here. If it werent for the bigots, this would be a non-issue.

This kind of crap is embraced by the major american sports leagues and the media in general while people like Tim Tebow is cut from the NFL for his outspoken christian faith.

Tebow is out of the league right now because he is not good enough. Thats it, and thats all. Nice try, though.

Obviously, if Tebow was openly gay he would have been heralded as the next great quarterback.

No, but if he was good, he might have. What a sad attempt to drag him into the conversation ...or maybe I missed the part where a journeyman fringe NBA player was now being considered great because he came out. Nope, turns out he is still considered exactly the same player he was before.

Truly, yours is a post that should be nominated for ignorant post of the year.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Tebow is out of the league right now because he is not good enough. Thats it, and thats all. Nice try, though.

No, but if he was good, he might have. What a sad attempt to drag him into the conversation

...or maybe I missed the part where a journeyman fringe NBA player was now being considered great because he came out. Nope, turns out he is still considered exactly the same player he was before.

Truly, yours is a post that should be nominated for ignorant post of the year.

edit on 19-5-2013 by captaintyinknots because: (no reason given)

Even a lot of NFL analysts agreed that the pure hatred towards Tebow was because of his faith. The devils don't have a problem with a player giving thanks to "god" as it is a vague term, its only when he used the word Jesus that they were ready to behead him, because they know that he is the one true God. If the world hated Jesus then his followers will be hated for his name. Tebow getting kicked out of the NFL because he "wasn't good enough" is a flimsy excuse because you could say the same for a lot of NFL players. He was apparently good enough to become the starting QB for the Denver Broncos and took them to the playoffs. But OH, when he started wearing his Christian faith on his arm, he suddenly became the worst player to ever play the sport. Meanwhile, the media embraces an NBA player announcing his degenerate sexual orientation to the world as if its some important grandiose event.

NFL Analysts: Tim Tebow Hated Because of His Faith: newsbusters.org...

Christians=Hated Minority, Thank God=Disqualification:

reply to post by BlackManINC

Even a lot of NFL analysts agreed that the pure hatred towards Tebow was because of his faith.

Please show me any other quarterback in the NFL that has a completion percentage of 48% and a qbr of 35. Analysts are there to cause controversy.

He's doesnt play because he is not very good, and the numbers back that up.

The devils don't have a problem with a player giving thanks to "god" as it is a vague term, its only when he used the word Jesus that they were ready to behead him, because they know that he is the one true God.

Please provide examples. These vague claims dont cut it.

If the world hated Jesus then his followers will be hated for his name. Tebow getting kicked out of the NFL because he "wasn't good enough" is a flimsy excuse because you could say the same for a lot of NFL players.

Who kicked Tebow out of the league? He is still an eligible free agent and can sign with any team that wants him. Teams, as a general rule, though, want their quarterback to be able to throw.

He was apparently good enough to become the starting QB for the Denver Broncos and took them to the playoffs.

Did he? Or did the phenomenal defense that team had?

But OH, when he started wearing his Christian faith on his arm, he suddenly became the worst player to ever play the sport.

Tebow has been spewing his religious shuck and jive since he was in college. He did a pro-chrisitan anti-abortion commercial his rookie year. You have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

Meanwhile, the media embraces an NBA player announcing his degenerate sexual orientation to the world as if its some important grandiose event.

Thank you for once again expressing your bigotry for all to see.

The best part of all of this is that you are deflecting the subject to Tebow, because you think he has somehow been wronged, yet you cant actually speak a word about the topic of the thread. ALl you have is a "poor christians" act, and you use it to disguise your hate.

a reply to: dontreally

Brittney Griner is being held in Russia, and President Biden is ignoring her plight.

www.nytimes.com...