I saw a murder and my story was changed...by cops...

In Lancaster California I witnessed 2 police officers kill a man, Here is my story..

This happened at a bar called The Office Bar and Grill out in the middle of nowhere back then.
I was 14 when I saw this..
"I went there to have lunch in 1974 with my friend Craig who's sister was the bartender, we had really good burgers and played shuffleboard.After about 2 hours hanging out,
two biker looking guys came in and demanded money from my friends sister and they took her back to the office area.
they were gone for about 20 minutes.

She came out all pale and shaky and I could see something was wrong, but hey, I was 14 at the time.These two rowdy looking guys stayed for a while and had a beer also.. (A gun was tucked in his waistband in back)

After a while 2 cop cars came sneaking into the parking lot, I was looking out the window all this time..was bored..
they jumped out of their cop cars and started hollering for everyone to lay down and they wanted the guys to come outside, man was i scared..

So one of these guys runs out and throws his gun into his car through the window..
Next thing I saw was these 2 cops unload 15 rounds into this guy, as I watched him do the death dance I was shocked..

The cops came in and asked where the other guy was but he had ran out the back by this time..I spent 18 hours at the police station telling what I saw to about 20 different cops and the FBI....so yea, they had good food and bad entertainment....you can look it up, it really happened..but the story will not be what I just told you, they changed it the next day to make it sound like the guy pulled a gun and started shooting at the cops..
that never happened...still haunts me...

I remember reading the story in the paper the next day and was not what I told the cops had happened..

Edit..I want to add that I checked the Archives from 1974 and can't find the story, we weren't wearing jackets so it wasn't cold out, and like I said, the story has a different title...

reply to post by baddmove


Crazy sad story Baddmove. Sorry you had to deal with that.

Justice sometimes makes up the story as it goes. I am sure of it. I once saw someone relieved of his "money and (insert your non pharmaceutical here)". Needless to say, he was a two time felon and was actually happy he wasn't facing charges. I often wondered why and what those officers did with what they relieved him of. Seeing that at 14 made me realize not everything is what appears to be.

S&F

If that's a true verifiable story.. Great story by the way, then all I can say is

Yep welcome to the real world. Bad people have screwed things up for the rest of us all these years and are now planning our futures. Scary men, cops, politicians, clergy etc they are everywhere. It's a sobering thought to remind you keep your guard up.

It's a true story..

I was there and have never forgotten what I saw...

Somewhat similar is the story of Kurt Haskel and the underwearbomber

That is exactly what I did, and not only did the U.S. Government not want to hear what I had to say, but it actively lied about it, attempted to get me to change my story, and hid, by withholding (secret government) evidence or putting a protective order on the evidence and nearly everything that would support my eyewitness account.

haskellfamily.blogspot.ca...

...and people wonder why we are "conspiracy theorists" and want to question everything "OS"

reply to post by baddmove


A true story?

I find a flaw in your story.

In 1974 the officers would have been using revolvers so to put 15 rounds into the suspect at least one would have had to reload which seems unlikely.......

reply to post by mwood


Since you are a Packers fan, you are gonna need help..

Here ya go my friend..Good lord dude..

wiki.answers.com...

you think cops in 1974 did not have 9mm pistols?

they had what, snub nose 38's? really..

did you just bring that issue up....

I am sorry but if you empty 15 rounds into someone their will be no "death dance" the guy would have dropped quick after the first.few rounds ...when people get shot ,its not like the movies...and i have seen plenty of videos from chechnya of people getting shot...

not denying your story ,but i think you built it up a bit for a climatic show...

Originally posted by baddmove
In Lancaster California I witnessed 2 police officers kill a man, Here is my story..

This happened at a bar called The Office Bar and Grill out in the middle of nowhere back then.
I was 14 when I saw this..
"I went there to have lunch in 1974 with my friend Craig who's sister was the bartender, we had really good burgers and played shuffleboard.After about 2 hours hanging out,
two biker looking guys came in and demanded money from my friends sister and they took her back to the office area.
they were gone for about 20 minutes.

She came out all pale and shaky and I could see something was wrong, but hey, I was 14 at the time.These two rowdy looking guys stayed for a while and had a beer also.. (A gun was tucked in his waistband in back)

After a while 2 cop cars came sneaking into the parking lot, I was looking out the window all this time..was bored..
they jumped out of their cop cars and started hollering for everyone to lay down and they wanted the guys to come outside, man was i scared..

So one of these guys runs out and throws his gun into his car through the window..
Next thing I saw was these 2 cops unload 15 rounds into this guy, as I watched him do the death dance I was shocked..

The cops came in and asked where the other guy was but he had ran out the back by this time..I spent 18 hours at the police station telling what I saw to about 20 different cops and the FBI....so yea, they had good food and bad entertainment....you can look it up, it really happened..but the story will not be what I just told you, they changed it the next day to make it sound like the guy pulled a gun and started shooting at the cops..
that never happened...still haunts me...

I remember reading the story in the paper the next day and was not what I told the cops had happened..

Edit..I want to add that I checked the Archives from 1974 and can't find the story, we weren't wearing jackets so it wasn't cold out, and like I said, the story has a different title...

edit on 28-4-2013 by baddmove because: (no reason given)

And what happened to the girl in those 20 min that they took her? I guess justice was only served 50%

reply to post by GFDGFS


She told us later that they wanted her to open the safe..

she didn't know the combo and had to call the owner..

she tipped the owner off to what was happening and that is why the cops showed up..

reply to post by LightningStrikesHere


It was a death DANCE..

and since he was up against his car..

He danced like a puppet while getting shot 15 times..

It wasn't like it took a couple of minutes to shoot him..

It was really about 15-20 seconds...

and dance he did..I was there and I saw it..

reality is a bit different from TV....

reply to post by baddmove

It's a misconception by much of the public that the police have to be in emanate danger for them to use lethal force. Levels of force go up really quickly the moment you start not following the lawful orders of a police officer who is lawfully preforming his duty.

The fact that he threw his gun in the car tells me that he was getting ready to flee (Fleeing Felon Rule), and they can shoot him on that basis alone. For all they knew he tossed the gun to a friend that was crouching down behind the seats. They arrived during the commission of a felony, other guy was still in the bar, and from their perspective he was holding you all hostage.

You also have no idea of what these guys were already in trouble for prior to this all occurring. It could have been a quick stop-an-rob to get money while they were already fleeing from the police. The police could have already been following/chasing them from another crime scene. There are a lot of variables here that we don't have the answer to.

Let me tell you this much though. I know a number of cops, most have never had to shoot anyone, and are thankful about that. None of them would risk the years it took to get on the department by being involved in a “bad shoot” unless they felt it was absolutely necessary.

Originally posted by baddmove
you think cops in 1974 did not have 9mm pistols?

they had what, snub nose 38's? really..

did you just bring that issue up...

Actually that is a pretty clever catch there.
Automatics did exist, for example military 45's, but police didn't issue them as service pieces.
Most services pieces were revolvers until the Glock became the standard service piece.
HOWEVER... Police can carry their own sidearm if they chose and it meets department criteria.
My friends all carry Sigs (and have since the late 80's), even though their original issued pieces were revolvers, followed by Glocks.

reply to post by defcon5


Fair enough..

But when the guy pulled his piece from his pants..

i remember it as a chrome 45, not a revolver...

but remember, this was in 1974.....

I'm 52 now, memory a bit glitchy.....

maybe they only shot him 12 times..I dunno..

It was ugly to watch all the same...

reply to post by baddmove

You're talking about the felon or the cop?
Cops don't normally carry their gun in the pants, they use a twist holster that makes it difficult for anyone but themselves to pull their gun.

So the felon had the chrome 45 then?

Things like this happen much too often, and it just goes to show that the system is broken in more ways than one. Lately I have been thinking about human nature in general, and I am close to believing the conclusion that humans are inherently selfish, and that they will always abuse positions of power one way or the other. But I know this is not the case, as there truly are good people out there who do not abuse their positions of power. But police officers, the very people tasked with upholding our laws, are probably the most notorious criminals of them all. This is because they have too much power, and the screening done to prospective officers is laughable. Anyone can become a police officer with a bit of time and effort, and suddenly they are given lots of power.

This power comes from the fact that whatever they say is law. And they make this stuff up as they go. Their word will almost always be taken over the word of the person they are being accused by. Sometimes even when there is direct evidence to the contrary. This is because often times the police will stick together and band together against someone who is in the right, just so nothing happens to their "fellow officer." What kind of messed up mentality is that coming from someone who is tasked with upholding the law? It reminds me of what i have read about the secret police in places like the former USSR and Nazi Germany, and in certain countries today. That is not how the system is supposed to work in the US, and there needs to be something done about these moronic police officers abusing their power, because not only do innocent people suffer, but JUSTICE suffers, and that is what their job is supposed to be about.

This whole country, from the government standpoint, is already in the crapper. The question now is what is worth fixing, what is worth salvaging, and whether it would be more profitable to just start over. I am convinced there will be a violent revolution in America sometime in the future, and this is why I am so adamant about our 2nd amendment rights. It is our only chance to succeed, because you see what the police do. It is not necessarily that I want to see or participate in a revolution. That is not something to be taken lightly. But in keeping with the doctrines this country was founded on, tyranny must be fought by the people, no matter if that tyranny originates from our own government or a foreign one.

Originally posted by JiggyPotamus
Things like this happen much too often, and it just goes to show that the system is broken in more ways than one.

Don't carry out armed robberies if you don't want to get shot at by the police.

reply to post by baddmove


Let me get this straight...they went in...took the waitress out back for 20 minutes...took the money (I guess)...than returned to the bar and waited there for the cops ?

They just attempted a robbery if I'm not mistaken...and after they just waited there, perhaps ordered a burger from the same waitress ???

Perhaps I misread your story...

She came out all pale and shaky and I could see something was wrong, but hey, I was 14 at the time.These two rowdy looking guys stayed for a while and had a beer also.. (A gun was tucked in his waistband in back)

I don't know...is this the material for the America's dumbest criminals...or is it a normal routine for criminals to stay at the crime scene to be arrested ?

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
reply to post by baddmove

 

Let me get this straight...they went in...took the waitress out back for 20 minutes...took the money (I guess)...than returned to the bar and waited there for the cops ?

They just attempted a robbery if I'm not mistaken...and after they just waited there, perhaps ordered a burger from the same waitress ???

Perhaps I misread your story...

They took her back to the office where the safe was, but she didn't have the combination so she had to call the owner to come open it.. somehow she dropped a clue to the owner that they were being robbed, that's why they were still there waiting.. Remember, this was out in the middle of nowhere back then..

To Defcon5...the robber had the chrome 45 tucked in the back of his pants....